Is there such a thing as an atheist?

[Jda016]

Jda, I don't know where your information came from but it is completely garbled. Einstein's theory of general relativity predicted in 1916 that the universe was expanding. Edwin Hubble, the American astronomer who the telescope by the same name is named after, proved in 1929 that the universe is expanding. The steady state theory was developed in 1948 by Fred Hoyle, and colleagues, to explain the expanding universe. The following a year a new theory was introduced and during a radio debate Hoyle derisively call the it the Big Bang. The name stuck.

I don't know where you get your information but it makes no sense. Whenever you see that a famous, but unnamed scientist, is completely baffled this should set off alarm bells. Your spidey sense should tell you something is wrong.


Jda, you might want to try again with something else. You have not shown that science has been completely overturned.

Cycel

Astronomers around the world thought the the universe was slowing down. It was then discovered that it was speeding up.

"Until recently, astronomers fully expected to see gravity slowing down the expansion of the cosmos.
In 1998, however, researchers discovered the repulsive side of gravity....And this explanation, in turn, led to the conclusion that the expansion of the universe is actually speeding up, not slowing down. This was such a radical finding..."

http://www.physics.uci.edu/~wolfj/AcceleratingUniverse.pdf (source)

You seemed to miss the whole point of my argument, which was that if something was so commonly held to be true was in fact wrong, then how can an athiest say with absolute certainty that God can not exist?

 

[Cycel]

I have heard that sheep are really stupid and need shepherds to care for them.

That may be the case, I don’t know. I have no real experience with sheep, but like you I have heard they are not the brightest lights in the barnyard.

You bring up a good point that the sheep does not know it is lost, this poses a big problem for atheists as they are lost sheep also.

Only from the Christian perspective. I know exactly where I am, and I have an understanding of our place in the universe that Job would find incomprehensible. Yourself as well – you understand far more than Job, and I am not talking about Christian dogma.

God will accept you right where you are right now, but you have to go to Him - and the bigger problem is you don't believe He exists.

Which negates my ability to do as you ask. You see the problem? Not believing in God I can’t go to him. God is not the shepherd Jesus thinks he is. A true shepherd does not insist the sheep come to him. He goes to the sheep which is why the shepherd’s staff has a crook at the one end. “The innovation of a hook facilitates the recovery of fallen animals by ensnaring them by neck or leg.” So says Wikipedia. Unlike a real shepherd God does not snare members of his fallen flock but he leaves them, expecting them to come to him. Why? The atheist believes he knows the answer. The Christian makes excuses for why God, the shepherd, does not act like a real shepherd.

Jesus continues - And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

This is describing the Catholic church, don’t you think? One Christian flock with one shepherd, the Pope – God’s representative on Earth – all hearing the voice of Jesus.

... I know that Jesus will return soon and the sin and evil on this world will be done away with and I want ALL my human brothers and sisters to be saved out of this mess.

You mean well, I know. I have a question. Do you envision a day when all the saved will be returned to life on Earth? Or will the saved live in Heaven?

God wants everyone....

Then why doesn’t he act the part of the shepherd? I am not asking much. I just want him to show me he exists. The sheep at least knows the shepherd exists. I’ve never met God, though I have implored him to show me the way. I got nothing.

I don't believe in an everlasting burning hell forever....

You’re more reasonable than many. A god of love would not commit those he loves to torment and pain. I’ve always thought that.

... eternal nonexistence that is the forever part.

Before I was conceived I did not exit. It did not matter. It will not matter again – not to me, at least.

The choice is life or nonexistence. God is not vengeful He is loving....

The sheep cannot not return to the shepherd if it cannot find him. The solution is easy. The shepherd only need show himself.

Yes or No and we each have to make our own choice.

I don’t know how to make you understand. This is not about making choices. I can’t choose to believe in something I don’t think is real – none of us can – and making promises of eternal life doesn’t help. If a Muslim approaches me with the promise that I will get ninety-nine beautiful virgins when I die, if only I adopt the teachings of Mohammed, I might think, ‘Great, that’s wonderful!’ but how am I going to convince myself that Allah is God and Mohammed is his prophet. Don’t you see? I can’t just wake up in the morning and choose to believe something that looks like a false teaching. Somehow I have to be convinced this is true. It is not enough to receive a promise. The promise does not persuade, only evidence can do that.

Noah preached for 120 years while he was building the ark....

This is part of the problem. Have you considered the logistics. The whole story strikes me as implausible. It looks like a myth. You have shown me one of the reasons I can’t believe.

Do I believe there was a real global flood? Yes.

Then, you probably don’t want me to point out all the problems I see with this account.

Why because the bible tells me that God made a promise at the end of that flood to never do that again and today when it rains that promise shows up as a rainbow and I can see that with my own eyes....

But you wouldn’t believe the native myth that explains why the beaver has a flat tail. That’s what myths do NL, they tell stories to explain why things are the way they are. Just because light refracts though falling rain, or through mist, and produces a rainbow is not proof the story is true. The ancients observed the rainbow and told a story to explain it, but you are missing part of the story. The rainbow is God’s bow – his weapon. “I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth” (King James version). Note that many modern translations try to hide the original meaning by changing the words to read, “I have set my rainbow in the clouds....” Placing his bow in the sky meant it was no longer in his hand to be used as a weapon. What would he have fired from its string? Lightening. Surely there was much thunder and lightening during the flood. Never again – and to prove it he sets his weapon in the sky following every storm.

 

[nl]

The ancients observed the rainbow and told a story to explain it, but you are missing part of the story. The rainbow is God’s bow – his weapon. “I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth” (King James version). Note that many modern translations try to hide the original meaning by changing the words to read, “I have set my rainbow in the clouds....” Placing his bow in the sky meant it was no longer in his hand to be used as a weapon. What would he have fired from its string? Lightening. Surely there was much thunder and lightening during the flood. Never again – and to prove it he sets his weapon in the sky following every storm.

Insightful! Preach it. Teach it. Thanks!

 

[danalee]

Cycel

Astronomers around the world thought the the universe was slowing down. It was then discovered that it was speeding up.

"Until recently, astronomers fully expected to see gravity slowing down the expansion of the cosmos.
In 1998, however, researchers discovered the repulsive side of gravity....And this explanation, in turn, led to the conclusion that the expansion of the universe is actually speeding up, not slowing down. This was such a radical finding..."

http://www.physics.uci.edu/~wolfj/AcceleratingUniverse.pdf (source)

You seemed to miss the whole point of my argument, which was that if something was so commonly held to be true was in fact wrong, then how can an athiest say with absolute certainty that God can not exist?

I was just musing how scientists are like children examining a doll house. When they grow up, they'll realize the small world they were in. Beyond the material universe is something more dynamic and real. They can't conceive it now, but this reality is nothing comparible to the perfect house that God keeps. Blessed are those who have insight to learn of the eternal kingdom now, preparing for it. Let them be like little gods. I've seen that blank look of horror when they realize (at the end of their lives in this construct).

 

[Cycel]

Frankly, Mustaphadrink, I've seen Obama give speeches on television, Presley sing songs on television, and Hitler rant on old news reels – on television – but I've never seen God on television. While there are hundreds, perhaps thousands, of images and sound bites of these three men there are none of God. You know this. I shouldn't be required to point out the obvious. No one questions whether there is physical evidence of Obama, Presley, or Hitler. You know that. God, though, is a different matter....

Okey dokey, how about this? You believe Phil Washburn exists but you haven't seen images or sound bites of him. All you have to prove his existence are his writings. You have to take some elses word for him being a reality, don't you?

First of all, this is the first I have heard of Phil Washburn. Are you claiming to be him?

You have to trust your internet provider, the server it is using, and hundreds of people that have the ability to present me as an illusion or fabrication.

You must admit that if I was so inclined I could go beyond simply trusting your disembodied words and actually seek you out. I could meet you in person, Phil. I can't do that with God as he doesn't have a home address or a social security number. He’s not going to show up at my local Tim Hortons restaurant. I have never talked on-line with him nor even with anyone claiming to be him. As IntoTheVoid pointed out so well, there is a world of difference between claiming to by Phil Washburn and claiming to be God. We see people all around us every day and so there is nothing out of the ordinary in the claim that you are Phil Washburn.

That argument didn't work out for you did it?

I think it is your argument that has not worked out for you.

 

[Cycel]

The ancients observed the rainbow and told a story to explain it, but you are missing part of the story. The rainbow is God’s bow – his weapon. “I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth” (King James version). Note that many modern translations try to hide the original meaning by changing the words to read, “I have set my rainbow in the clouds....”

Insightful! Preach it. Teach it. Thanks!

Thank you. I noticed this in my teens. The bow God places in the sky in the Genesis account is his weapon, and of course if it is hanging in the sky for all to see it can no longer be used for destructive purposes. So many, I think, completely overlook what this actually tells us about the account of the Flood.

 

[nl]

I was just musing how scientists are like children examining a doll house. When they grow up, they'll realize the small world they were in. Beyond the material universe is something more dynamic and real. They can't conceive it now, but this reality is nothing comparible to the perfect house that God keeps. Blessed are those who have insight to learn of the eternal kingdom now, preparing for it. Let them be like little gods. I've seen that blank look of horror when they realize (at the end of their lives in this construct).

Thank you for this post.

Almighty God existed before the heavens and the earth. Humanity can sense parts of the heavens and earth with sight, sound, taste, smell, touch, and a few measuring instruments that we've invented. But, sense is limited. Human souls have mind, wills and emotions to expand upon perceptions. There are also intangibles called the human spirit and the Holy Spirit and the grace of God. Limiting perception to our senses is limiting and assuming that natural sense and soul perceives all is a large, unjustified assumption.. Some have tried to expand perception with mind altering drugs but that perception is still limited. Pride and prejudice and stubbornness can hinder the perception of the natural senses and soul and narrow them but Almighty God can expand perception.

The Bible talks in places about Almighty God doing a supernatural work to expand perceptions. Lydia is one example.

• "...Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul." (Acts 16:19)

Every genuine Christian enjoys expanded perception that is compared to the Creation of light in the universe:

• For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ. (2 Corinthians 4:6)

One comparison is that we live in a large fishbowl called the universe. Almighty God is omnipresent and has been watching and recording everything since the beginning. We are in an ongoing test and evaluation that sees what we might try to get away with if we thought that no one was watching. In the end, we must all appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ. (2 Corinthians 5:10)

In the beginning, God was there (Genesis 1:1). At the end of earth and the universe, God will be there too.

Let them be like little gods.

People have the freedom now to disbelieve Genesis 1:1 and to pretend at times to rival God with their knowledge and abilities. Let them use the freedom as they choose while they have it and before death closes in. However, let us also love God and love our neighbor and use our own freedom to seek to make disciples of Jesus Christ.

 

[Cycel]

I was just musing how scientists are like children examining a doll house. When they grow up, they'll realize the small world they were in.

No, scientists do recognize their true smallness in the universe. They are generally awed by their understanding of the world and of the universe in which we live. All you need to do is listen to the likes Richard Dawkins or Neil de Grasse Tyson to grasp this fundamental truth recognized by many scientists. I share this feeling myself and I only follow, second hand, the great discoveries that men and women of science bring to us, enriching our lives in ways unimaginable in past generations. They are the giants on which our civilization is built. If not for their achievements you and I would not even be having this dialogue.

Beyond the material universe is something more dynamic and real.

It is not something you can demonstrate and for all I know this so-called reality exists only in your imagination. Picture this: a physical world filled with living, breathing, beings, or a spiritual plane on which only the dead reside. What is more real?

They can't conceive it now, but this reality is nothing comparible to the perfect house that God keeps.

A place only for the dead?

Blessed are those who have insight to learn of the eternal kingdom now, preparing for it.

Danalee, are you saying it is more important to prepare for death than it is to live life in this world? I am acquainted with a man some ten years my senior who is always talking of 'going home', ie. dying. He seems almost to live for his future death. I think it's sad. I understand that he misses his parents, two of his siblings, and a number of friends who have all predeceased him, but there are so many wonders in this life to explore, I am in no hurry to leave it behind.

I've seen that blank look of horror when they realize (at the end of their lives in this construct).

Oh, you have not actually seen a "blank look of horror" on the face of anyone. You are only imagining what this might be like?

 

[Cycel]

People have the freedom now to disbelieve Genesis 1:1 and to pretend at times to rival God with their knowledge and abilities.

I doubt there is any scientist in the world who would claim to rival the knowledge of God as Christians envision him. There is also the likes of men such as Francis Collins (see his book, The Language of God), a leader in the understanding of genetics in this world today, who accepts all the scientific claims, and who calls himself an evangelical Christian. It is possible for Christians to fully accept the scientific world view and at the same time believe in the existence of God and embrace Christ as their savior. Many do this, just as Collins does. A friend of mine, who is a scientist and an atheist, told me some years back that I would be surprised at the number of scientists he has met who still believe in God, yet few of them reject the scientific edifice.

As for Genesis 1, all the evidence points to it simply being a myth. I am reminded of the words of the former Archbishop of Canterbury at the turn of the 20th century who clearly recognized this (I paraphrase): “God did something more wonderful than make the world, he made the world make itself.”

 

[mustaphadrink]

Mustapha. I have very little time for your stupid comments.Your talking absolute nonsense. All of the examples you mentioned can be verified that they exist.

One thing is sure. You are obviously not very intelligent. First I was illustrating that basing your belief on what is outrageous or absurd is not very scientific.

Second, how do you know these people existed? You see them on TV but how do you know that they are not someone made up as that person? You don't bearing in mind the Elvis festivals that take place where you have hundreds of Elvis's. So which one is the real one if at all? They even have people on TV looking at each other who are identical. Who is the real one and who is the fake?

How do you know that Hitler was not the invention of someone's fertile imagination. After all, there are people on your side that are adamant that the holocaust never happened when it obviously did.

Bearing in mind these FACTS, the stupid nonsense is all yours because you have shown that you have a closed mind like a book that is never opened. All cover but no substance.

 

[mustaphadrink]

I'd also like to point out Mustapha that yes, atheists have many differing opinions and ideals.

Unlike christians who all abide by the exact same bible and share the same... Oh wait.. You don't do you. Hence all the different denominations and many different versions and revisions of the bible.

look no further than this very forum to illustrate how differently you all think.

Why do you atheists take such delight in showing your ignorance? As they keep claiming they are intelligent and logical they show very little intelligence or logic when it comes to the bible. I guess it is a product of their delusion that they they know everything and we know nothing.

The denomination thing has been done to death by atheists as they think they are scoring more points to use against christians and somehow it is going to make us feel like we have no right to say anything. Well all I can say is "up yours" in that respect because I don't feel at all inferior and have to answer to someone who is nothing more than a troll, full of boring and nonsensical ideas.

Unlike you, I have a degree in Theology so I do know more that you do about the bible. Church History is one of my favourite subjects and I have studied it from the year dot. The fact is that all through Christendom, there are not many variations on the basic essentials of Christianity. Nearly everyone believes the same on those.

The differences are on things that are of no consequence to the message of salvation and its outcomes.

Now, if you want to bust a gut over these, be my guest, but be warned you are making yourself look very foolish and seemingly ignorant when you do.

 

[mustaphadrink]

While many believe in God, no one possess physical evidence that they can provide to skeptics.

This comment is the key one in your rant. Why is a sceptic a sceptic? It is not because he is an atheist. It is not becuase he is intelligent. It is not becuase he knows so much. The reason he is a sceptic is because he has a state of mind that will not allow him to enjoy life beyond his own morose existence. A sceptic is a person who doubts the existence of real knowledge of any kind. So he doesn't believe you, or me, or King George the V, or Einstein, or Dr. Spock or Christopher Dawkins or Elvis Presley etc. etc. In other words. he is sceptical of everything. If he is not, he is not a sceptic.

Even if Jesus stood in front of him in the flesh and he said "Hallo sceptic. My name is Jesus" and he replied "you mean the Jesus of the bible" and Jesus said "that is right" he would be sceptical because he cannot be anything else.

So providing anything to a sceptic is a waste of time becuase he will not allow himself to believe anything.

 

[mustaphadrink]

I view the Genesis text as originating in the Bronze Age and so don't think it has anything accurate to say in terms of our modern understanding of cosmology, but I agree with you that its author understood the Creation to have taken six literal days.

In that case, atheists are like Christians. Atheists believe (faith) that bits and pieces of this and that existed 13 billion years ago because someone says they did on the basis of their idea of what constitutes reality and we are supposed to accept that what they say is the truth because they found a tooth (real case) and has relevance to modern day cosmology.

You will have to forgive me for not getting all worked up about fairy stories.

 

[JesusLives]

Originally Posted by JesusLives
Jesus continues - And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.




Cycel
This is describing the Catholic church, don’t you think? One Christian flock with one shepherd, the Pope – God’s representative on Earth – all hearing the voice of Jesus.

No - My thoughts were not even any where close to the Catholic church. I was thinking Jesus and His followers in Heaven. God's representative is the Holy Spirit that can be in more than one place at a time since Jesus went back up to heaven. Jesus said He must go so that the Holy Spirit could come and teach us all things and He also referred to Holy Spirit as the Comforter. I am not a believer that the Pope is God's representative on earth. The Pope is human like we are and prone to sin just like us.

Originally Posted by JesusLives
... I know that Jesus will return soon and the sin and evil on this world will be done away with and I want ALL my human brothers and sisters to be saved out of this mess.




Cycel
You mean well, I know. I have a question. Do you envision a day when all the saved will be returned to life on Earth? Or will the saved live in Heaven?

My understanding is that during the 1000 years right after Jesus return we will be in heaven for that 1000 years going over the books to see why those who were lost are not there and seeing that God is just with the punishment dealt out to them.
1 Corinthians 6:3 First part - Do you not know that we shall judge angels?
Verse 2 same chapter talks about the Saints judging the world.
But I believe that is what we will be doing during that 1000 years in heaven. Satan will be on earth during that 1000 years with no one to tempt. Wicked died calling for the rocks to fall on them during Jesus return.

At the end of that time we will come back to earth - Satan and wicked will be destroyed with fire the earth will be purified - In Malachi 4:3 it talks about the wicked being ashes under our feet. The bible verses in Revelation where John said he saw a new heaven and a new earth and the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven like a bride prepared for her husband. So eventually I believe we will be living on earth again and God will live with us.

I gave you the readers digest condensed version of my belief.

Originally Posted by JesusLives
God wants everyone....




Cycel
Then why doesn’t he act the part of the shepherd? I am not asking much. I just want him to show me he exists. The sheep at least knows the shepherd exists. I’ve never met God, though I have implored him to show me the way. I got nothing.
I possibly gave a wrong representation, God is near each one of us - Jesus said low I am with you always even till the end of the world. He also said I stand at the door and knock if anyone hears and opens the door He will come in and sup with him.
So that is where listening comes in - I guess you have to hear the knock and open the door. I know it is the Holy Spirits job to convict and convince of sin and truth.

Originally Posted by JesusLives Yes or No and we each have to make our own choice.




Cycel
I don’t know how to make you understand. This is not about making choices. I can’t choose to believe in something I don’t think is real – none of us can – and making promises of eternal life doesn’t help.

After Jesus resurrection and He appeared to Thomas and Thomas touched Jesus wounds because Thomas was a doubter - Jesus said to him in John 20:29 Thomas because you have seen me you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.

So Cycel I pray for you to either hear the knock on your heart's door or somehow find a way to believe that God exists. Because on this world we are all sinners and need a Savior. I just keep asking people to get in the boat with me and I'm starting to get an idea of how Noah might have felt asking people to get on the boat with him.. I won't stop trying and I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my posts. God loves you as well as the rest of us on CC and in the world.

 

[Jda016]

After Jesus resurrection and He appeared to Thomas and Thomas touched Jesus wounds because Thomas was a doubter - Jesus said to him in John 20:29 Thomas because you have seen me you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.

So Cycel I pray for you to either hear the knock on your heart's door or somehow find a way to believe that God exists. Because on this world we are all sinners and need a Savior. I just keep asking people to get in the boat with me and I'm starting to get an idea of how Noah might have felt asking people to get on the boat with him.. I won't stop trying and I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my posts. God loves you as well as the rest of us on CC and in the world.

Amen! And well said!

 

[nl]

... There is also the likes of men such as Francis Collins (see his book, The Language of God), a leader in the understanding of genetics in this world today, who accepts all the scientific claims, and who calls himself an evangelical Christian. It is possible for Christians to fully accept the scientific world view and at the same time believe in the existence of God and embrace Christ as their savior. Many do this, just as Collins does.

Language of God by Francis Collins is now on my Kindle app. I've read 7% so far.

I did find this quote early in that I liked: "Science's domain is to explore nature. God's domain is in the spiritual world, a realm not possible to explore with the tools and language of science.".

Cycle, thanks for the referral. I plan to keep reading and am glad to "expand my horizons" a bit.

 

[Cycel]

Language of God by Francis Collins is now on my Kindle app. I've read 7% so far.

I did find this quote early in that I liked: "Science's domain is to explore nature. God's domain is in the spiritual world, a realm not possible to explore with the tools and language of science.".

Cycle, thanks for the referral. I plan to keep reading and am glad to "expand my horizons" a bit.

You are very welcome.

Note, if you ever have any of your own recommendations that you think I might find particularly useful, feel free to let me know. I'll add them to my reading list. Right now I am a little better than half way through Tyson's book, The Space Chronicles.

As for Collins, that quote reflects an earlier view of Stephen J. Gould, which he took some flack for from some in the scientific community, Dawkins in particular, I think. Wikipedia says the following:

Non-overlapping magisteria (NOMA) is the view advocated by Stephen Jay Gould that science and religion each have “a legitimate magisterium, or domain of teaching authority,” and these two domains do not overlap.

What I did not know was that the National Academy of Sciences made a similar statement: “Scientists, like many others, are touched with awe at the order and complexity of nature. Indeed, many scientists are deeply religious. But science and religion occupy two separate realms of human experience. Demanding that they be combined detracts from the glory of each.” (see Wikipedia: Non-overlapping magisteria)

 

[Cycel]

My understanding is that during the 1000 years right after Jesus return we will be in heaven for that 1000 years...

I have been told that Heaven is not a physical place. We can’t point the Hubble Space Telescope at it and take pictures. It is a place where spirits reside – for example, people believe they go to Heaven after they have died, so Christians see it as the realm of the dead. So for that 1000 years you are dead?

At the end of that time we will come back to earth...

Will you still be in spirit form on Earth? The Jehovah’s Witness believe everyone will be returned to their physical bodies.

we will be in heaven for that 1000 years going over the books to see why those who were lost are not there and seeing that God is just with the punishment dealt out to them.

I thought God was always perceived as just? Why will he need you supervising his activities? God could do with a mere thought, in the blink of an eye, what it would take a 1000 human overseers 1000 years to accomplish. Yes?

I don’t know how to make you understand. This is not about making choices. I can’t choose to believe in something I don’t think is real – none of us can – and making promises of eternal life doesn’t help.

After Jesus resurrection and He appeared to Thomas and Thomas touched Jesus wounds because Thomas was a doubter - Jesus said to him in John 20:29 Thomas because you have seen me you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.

Have you read the Gospel of Thomas? It is interesting. It contains no narrative. It is simply a collection of the sayings of Jesus. Many of its sayings are to be found in the canonical Gospels. This ‘secret’ Gospel was the sacred literature of a group whom historians designate the Thomas Christians. The author of John would have been familiar with them. Some scholars believe that John’s story of the ‘doubting Thomas’, which appears nowhere else in scripture, was a not so veiled attack against the Thomas Christians. His hope would have been that those who read his account would then react negatively against the Thomas Christians and so favour his interpretation instead of theirs. Elaine Pagels is one scholar who takes this view. See her book Beyond Belief: the Secret Gospel of Thomas.

So Cycel I pray for you to either hear the knock on your heart's door or somehow find a way to believe that God exists.

It is not Jesus who knocks, but Jesus who answers our knock:

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.” (Matthew 7:7 NIV)
or

"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.” (Luke 11:9 NIV)

(As a sidebar, note the similarity between the two passages. Scholars think Matthew and Luke both used the same primary source material for their gospels. They have named this unknown source ‘Q’. Many think that a source similar to Thomas, composed only of sayings, was used by both Matthew and Luke in the composition of their own gospels.)

I was familiar with these two verses and did a lot of knocking. The door remained closed. I came to believe in time that scripture must be wrong for I did as asked and yet there was no response. This is what many Christian don’t understand. They think I must not have knocked loudly enough. What? God has poor hearing? Or they think I wasn’t really contrite enough. What? God’s playing hard to get? They make endless excuses to explain the lack of response. I am not the only person to have experienced this lack of interest on the part of God. There are other former Christians, now all atheists, who went through this same experience.

Of course when you still believe, but God doesn’t answer, it is confusing. Probably the most famous Christian to have experienced this was Mother Teresa. Toward the end of her life she “expressed grave doubts about God's existence and pain over her lack of faith”.

“Where is my faith? Even deep down ... there is nothing but emptiness and darkness ... If there be God—please forgive me. When I try to raise my thoughts to Heaven, there is such convicting emptiness that those very thoughts return like sharp knives and hurt my very soul ... How painful is this unknown pain—I have no Faith. Repulsed, empty, no faith, no love, no zeal, ... What do I labor for? If there be no God, there can be no soul. If there be no soul then, Jesus, You also are not true.” (see Wikipedia: Mother Teresa)

Her conclusion is one that many of us eventually arrive at though most of us are not in so public a role. Mother Teresa clearly wanted to believe. She sought God and kept searching far longer than I did. She sought to the end of her life. I gave up at age sixteen; but if she could try so long, and receive no answer from God is it any wonder there are so many atheists?

I just keep asking people to get in the boat with me and I'm starting to get an idea of how Noah might have felt asking people to get on the boat with him.. I won't stop trying....

But it is not really a ‘boat’, it is a mindset, one for which it is very difficult to provide any physical confirmation. The trouble is there are other interpretations that work just as well for which there are physical confirmations, but which don’t require a supernatural intervenor.

 

[JesusLives]

I have been told that Heaven is not a physical place. We can’t point the Hubble Space Telescope at it and take pictures. It is a place where spirits reside – for example, people believe they go to Heaven after they have died, so Christians see it as the realm of the dead. So for that 1000 years you are dead?

As I read my bible I find that heaven must be a physical place as it talks about God's throne, there are many beings there - thousands and thousands times ten thousands of angels, 24 elders are mentioned, Enoch, Elijah, Jesus is acting as our High Priest - the shadow of that was the earthly sanctuary out in the wilderness and if that was a shadow then then there must be a heavenly sanctuary and all of that is physical, the tree of life the river of live all physical. Jesus also said I go to prepare a place for you and last time I checked a place is something physical. The bible says that now we see through a glass darkly but then we shall see face to face. God is God creator of all things, science included who knows how many dimension or plains of existence there are. Invisible for sure - it boggles my mind to think of the knowledge that God has - I am so stupid and insignificant, smaller than a grain of sand compared to Him, but that He loves us so much that He would send His Son to die and pay a ransom for us that we could one day break through because of what Jesus did for us and be reconciled with Him - I just don't understand that kind of love but I really want to.

Yes some Christians believe that people go to heaven or hell the moment they die. I don't believe that and the bible does not support that notion either. Many times Jesus referred to death as a sleep and there are many bible verses that support this. The living know that they will die but the dead know not anything. We cannot praise God from the grave. The word hell used many times in the bible referred to the grave.

The first lie Satan told Eve was that she would not die if she at the fruit. But God said she would die and that the wages of sin are death. So if someone from birth lived eternally whether in heaven or hell that would mean that God was a liar when He said the wages of sin are death. But my bible tells me that Satan is a liar and the Father of lies. But men would rather believe the lie than God. My belief is that when you die you go into the grave, your body (no life) is in like a state of sleep not knowing or aware of anything and waiting for the coming of Jesus to rise to eternal life or eternal death.

Cycel
Will you still be in spirit form on Earth? The Jehovah’s Witness believe everyone will be returned to their physical bodies.

We will be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye the bible says and also says that this mortal must put on immortality - so yes I believe it will be a new and improved body but not the body that we have now on a decaying sinful planet.

Cycel
I thought God was always perceived as just? Why will he need you supervising his activities? God could do with a mere thought, in the blink of an eye, what it would take a 1000 human overseers 1000 years to accomplish. Yes?

No God was not always perceived as just - this is part of the problem that started in heaven with Lucifer the angel - God's character has been called into question. We see a little of Satan's manipulation in the first chapter of Job, saying if God did not protect Job that Job would curse God. Lucifer/Satan did not see God as fair and just and caused 1/3 of the angels to follow him and they were thrown out of heaven. The bible says Satan will be bound to the earth for a 1000 years this is a time frame that God has set up and if we are looking over the choices of many billions or trillions of people that might take us humans a little bit of time to look over the replay of all those lives.

We Christians won't be overseeing God's work, God lets us see why He made His judgments of the wicked and once we have reviewed this everyone will know without a doubt that God is fair and just. How could I enjoy heaven if my daughter did not make it there? Going over her life and seeing the choices she made and the opportunities she had to choose God and did not do it will be made plain. As an example.

Cycel
It is not Jesus who knocks, but Jesus who answers our knock:

The bible verse I was referring to was Jesus speaking in Revelation 3:20
Behold I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in and dine with him and he with Me.

Cycel
“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.” (Matthew 7:7 NIV)
or
"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.” (Luke 11:9 NIV)

Yes - Jesus would open the door on these two verses, but these are not the verses I was referring to.

 

[nl]

...Biblical prophecy being fulfilled...

That a virgin should conceive and bring forth a man-child, this was indeed a new thing, a strange thing, a wonderful thing, a thing that was never thought of, never heard of, never read of, from the creation of the world to that very day. So Isa. 43:19 (Thomas Brooks - 1608-1680)

Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. (Isaiah 7:14 - NASB)

All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”). (Matthew 1:22-23 NIV).

The prophet, Isaiah, is dated in the 8th Century B.C. (Before Christ). Fulfilled prophecy is strong evidence to support the unique distinctives of Jesus Christ.