Churches of Christ with or without instruments, which is the right way to worship?
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John 4:23,24 "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
The true worshipper worships in spirit and in truth.
What is truth?
Jn 17:17 "...thy word is truth."
So God's word sets the worship standard by which the true worshipper follows. Since God's word tells the NT Christian to sing, then the true NT worshipper sings.
Man does not have a choice in the worship standard, God has set the standard. Since many do not follow that standard, that is how you end up with thousands of religious groups that contradict each other on about every issue you can think of.
The true worshipper worships in spirit and in truth.
What is truth?
Jn 17:17 "...thy word is truth."
So God's word sets the worship standard by which the true worshipper follows. Since God's word tells the NT Christian to sing, then the true NT worshipper sings.
Man does not have a choice in the worship standard, God has set the standard. Since many do not follow that standard, that is how you end up with thousands of religious groups that contradict each other on about every issue you can think of.
E
Wrong.
God tells man to worship him in truth. That means every minute of every day whatever we do is to honor and gloriphy him.
Your trying to force a false belief of an hour of Sunday worship. I guess we just ignore God the rest of the day and week?
thats is why the church is dead. It has no power. because it tries to force its power into one building and one hour (maybe two or three depending on how many so called services you have during the week) and not as an everyday sacrifice.
I agree that God tells man to worship Him in truth.
I also agree with the bible that God's word is truth, Jn 17:17. So God's word tells man how to worship. Nowhere in the NT has worship been a free-for-all where man chooses for himself as to how to go about worshipping God.
Acts 20:27 "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together..."
So God brings together Christians on the first day of the week to worship, ["came together" being passive voice.] God determines that this first day of the week corporate worship consists of singing, praying, giving, taking the Lord's Supper, and preaching the word. So the issue is where does God's word "Truth" authorize the NT Christian to worship God using musical instruments?
I also agree with the bible that God's word is truth, Jn 17:17. So God's word tells man how to worship. Nowhere in the NT has worship been a free-for-all where man chooses for himself as to how to go about worshipping God.
Acts 20:27 "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together..."
So God brings together Christians on the first day of the week to worship, ["came together" being passive voice.] God determines that this first day of the week corporate worship consists of singing, praying, giving, taking the Lord's Supper, and preaching the word. So the issue is where does God's word "Truth" authorize the NT Christian to worship God using musical instruments?
E
1. They came together for instruction. not to worship God.
2. if you look in acts chapter 2. they continued stedfastly (continually. all the time, not just on one day) in the apostles teaching, in fellowship, prayer, breaking of bread, and everything, this is true church, not the one day a week stuff
There is no questions that instruments were used in praising God under the Old Covenant.
1Ch_15:16 And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of musick, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy
There is no questions that instruments are used in Heaven and in the future
Rev_5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev_15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
The Question:
1. Is it forbidden to sing with instrument?
NO.
Nowhere in the Bible, can you find that forbid us to sing with instrument.
2. Is it forbidden to sing without instrument?
NO.
Nowhere in the bible can you find that prohibit us to praise him without instruments.
We can sing praises to God with or without instruments, and there is no sin in praising God.
1Ch_15:16 And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of musick, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy
There is no questions that instruments are used in Heaven and in the future
Rev_5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev_15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
The Question:
1. Is it forbidden to sing with instrument?
NO.
Nowhere in the Bible, can you find that forbid us to sing with instrument.
2. Is it forbidden to sing without instrument?
NO.
Nowhere in the bible can you find that prohibit us to praise him without instruments.
We can sing praises to God with or without instruments, and there is no sin in praising God.
won't be electric instruments in our worship in heaven, can hardly believe drums will be, but maybe. harps are nice, but in my ears the harp of the spirit is nicer. like someone said earlier in thread, different strokes for different folks. i don't think the Almighty is going to deny worship, from instruments, and from the spirit, or condemn someone for it, remember the Almighty see's our heart.
But Christ took ALL the OT out of the way making it inactive, of no effect, Col 2:14, so He may replace it with his NT law, Heb 10:9, so there was a change of laws, Heb 7:12
The harps here are only figurative, not literal. In Rev 5, the harps are as figurative as the bowl full of prayers and in Rev 14 the harps are as figurative as the number 144,000. Rev 15 harps are figurative as the beast.
The argument from silence does not work and is illogical.
Nowhere does the NT forbid peanuts and orange juice for the Lord's Supper, so those items are allowed?
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Worship was the purpose of coming together, preaching/teaching is a form of worship. Christians can worship at other times, but it is this corporate worship which the worship I refer to when the disciples come together on the first day of the week. So the issue remains, where did God authorize instruments for worship, either the corporate worship on the first day of the week or any other time?
and what sins under the law pertains to singing with instruments did Christ took out?
what singing with instruments was against them?
so what do "harps" means?
regarding Lord supper:
they used wine, the reason was those who drink to much get drunk:
1Co 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
1Co 11:21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
and we know that Jesus breaks bread to remember him.
Bread and wine were definitely there... If you would like to add peanut, and add orange juice or grape Juice...its up to you. (is it a sin...No)
In addition we must acknowledge that not only was the church established on the first day of the week and that the first Christians assembled to partake of the Lord's supper on the first day of every week, by the time of the writing of the Revelation, John made a reference to the "Lord's Day" (Revelation 1:10). This can be no other day but the first day of the week. The New Testament gives much prominence to the first day of the week.
The psalmist wrote, “the stone that the builders rejected has become the head of the corner…this is the day that the Lord has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it” (Psalm 118:22-23). Jesus applied this verse to his rejection by the Jews and then his subsequent exaltation and their destruction as written in Matthew 21:42. But Peter applied it more specifically to Christ’s resurrection in Acts 4:10-11. There are occasions in scripture where “day” refers to a dispensation of time, especially, in a messianic context such as Zechariah 13:1. While it is certainly proper to view "the day that the Lord hath made" in Psalm 118:22-23 as the dispensation of an age, Peter connected Psalm 118:22-23 specifically to the resurrection of Jesus which occurred on the first day of the week (Mark 16:9). Jesus made the first day of the week special when He overcame death and was resurrected from the grave. John acknowledged that fact when he made a reference specifically to the Lord's Day in Revelation 1:10. This Lord's day has been assigned as a day belonging to the Lord by inspiration, and can be no other day but the first day of the week; The day the Lord hath made.
In addition to Acts 20:7 being when the disciples came together to break bread, as seen earlier, the first day of every week was when Paul instructed the saints in Corinth to lay by in store as God had prospered them (1 Corinthians 16:2). It was upon this day that the first century Christians congregated and who were also commanded not to forsake their assemblies (Hebrews 10:25). Jesus was resurrected on the first day of the week (Mark 16:9), Christ appeared after His resurrection on the first day of the week (John 20:26), Pentecost occurred (Acts 2), with the Holy Ghost descending (Acts 2:1-5), on the first day of the week. And 3000 souls were baptized and added to the Lord's church on Sunday and they partook of the Lord's supper on that day and then continuing afterwards stedfastly.
And finally, evidence of a weekly observation of the Lord's supper from uninspired writers:
The psalmist wrote, “the stone that the builders rejected has become the head of the corner…this is the day that the Lord has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it” (Psalm 118:22-23). Jesus applied this verse to his rejection by the Jews and then his subsequent exaltation and their destruction as written in Matthew 21:42. But Peter applied it more specifically to Christ’s resurrection in Acts 4:10-11. There are occasions in scripture where “day” refers to a dispensation of time, especially, in a messianic context such as Zechariah 13:1. While it is certainly proper to view "the day that the Lord hath made" in Psalm 118:22-23 as the dispensation of an age, Peter connected Psalm 118:22-23 specifically to the resurrection of Jesus which occurred on the first day of the week (Mark 16:9). Jesus made the first day of the week special when He overcame death and was resurrected from the grave. John acknowledged that fact when he made a reference specifically to the Lord's Day in Revelation 1:10. This Lord's day has been assigned as a day belonging to the Lord by inspiration, and can be no other day but the first day of the week; The day the Lord hath made.
In addition to Acts 20:7 being when the disciples came together to break bread, as seen earlier, the first day of every week was when Paul instructed the saints in Corinth to lay by in store as God had prospered them (1 Corinthians 16:2). It was upon this day that the first century Christians congregated and who were also commanded not to forsake their assemblies (Hebrews 10:25). Jesus was resurrected on the first day of the week (Mark 16:9), Christ appeared after His resurrection on the first day of the week (John 20:26), Pentecost occurred (Acts 2), with the Holy Ghost descending (Acts 2:1-5), on the first day of the week. And 3000 souls were baptized and added to the Lord's church on Sunday and they partook of the Lord's supper on that day and then continuing afterwards stedfastly.
And finally, evidence of a weekly observation of the Lord's supper from uninspired writers:
- Augustus Neander said, "As we have already remarked, the celebration of the Lord's Supper was still held to constitute an essential part of divine worship on every Sunday, as appears from Justin Martyr (A.D. 150.) (History of the Christian Religion and the Church, Vol. 1, page 332).
- The Didache, (an early uninspired document from about 120 AD) says, "That every Lord's day do ye gather yourselves together and break bread and give thanksgiving." (Chapter 14).
- Pliney (Epistles Book 10), Justin Martyr (Second Apology for the Christians) and Tertullian (De Ora, page 135) all three affirm that it was the universal practice of the Christians to assemble on the first day of the week to sing, pray and partake of the Lord's Supper together.
Colossians 3;16 and Ephesians 5;19 are the commands for singing only. We that are serious comply to the commands God puts to us to obey. There are no commands for instruments to be used in the N.T. so why would I do anything other than sing? Do you know of other authorization for instruments to be used in N.T. time?
Worshipping God his way is our command and I find no where that other than singing is the command for worshipping him. Colossians 3:16 and Ephesians 5;19 Adding peanuts, orange juice or grape juice is up to God, my duty is simply to obey. God has his way he commands us to worship him, any other way would bring negative consequences.
If it was me, there was a misunderstanding. We are bound to the spiritual law but only through the command "if you love me you will keep my commandments:. Christ and the Father are one, so I try to obey Phil 4:8. It was always the spiritual law that God was interested in. Personally, I have chosen to use the physical law of no scavenger meat. It isn't something that is between God and I, the spiritual law is the one that is between God and I. I am personally using the physical law as a reminder to myself. To keep the spiritual law, I monitor the books I read, the movies I go to, the way I look at my fellow Christians, how I think. Paul pointed out we were to use the Holy Spirit as our guide, my adding the physical guide is weakness on my part. I shouldn't need this.
Quote: There is no questions that instruments were used in praising God under the Old Covenant.
1Ch_15:16 And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of musick, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy
"Prophesying with instruments" [Miriam and the Levites] is defined as soothsaying or sorcery as the words are used to mean the same thing. John calls them sorcerers in Revelation 18. I would't want to do that.
It has been noted that the Church of Christ is for Christians: Christians are disciples. It is correct that Jesus commanded to teach and observe what HE commanded to be taught. Peter affirms that Jesus made the prophecies by the Spirit OF of Chirst more certain. He said that as the Church is built upon or EDUCATED by the Prophets and apostles and that combination is not subject to private interpretation or further expounding.
The Israelites rose up in Instrumental rejoicing at Mount Sinai and as a result God removed THE BOOK OF THE COVENANT and gave them THE BOOK OF THE LAW. He sentenced them to Babylon for captivity and death. Stephen warns that this instrumental idolatry was the reason
God "turned them over to worship the starry host." Neither king, kingdom, temple, animal sacrifices, or MUSIC was ordained by God [Isaiah 1 and Jeremian 7]. The Jewish encyclopedia and all recorded evidence proves that the Monarchy was a CIVIL sacrificial system from which the godly people were quarantined.
Christ ordained the qahal, synagogue, ekklesia or Church of Christ (the Rock). It is defined as
INCLUSIVE of rest, reading and rehearsing the Word
EXCLUSIUVE of vocal or instrument rejoicing or Rhetoric
That never changed and was affirmed by John Calvin who called for a RESTORATION OF THE CHURCH OF CHRIST
That was affirmed by the Campbells who defined:
CHURCH: is a school of Christ through the Word: the Word or LOGOS is defined as the Regulative principle and is the OPPPOSITE of rhetoric, singing, playing instruments or acting.
WORSHIP: is defined as READING AND MUSING THE WORD
Jesus exampled it, Paul and Peter commanded it (exclusively) and Churches of Christ under that name never fell into the entertainment trap.
The first Black American Methodist added the first ordan:
Thus, Bethel Baltimore became the first A.M.E. Church to have instrumental music during church services. The same organ is on display in the Bethel Museum. Because he was an advocate of unpopular practices such as instrumental music the church he was assigned to after Bethel in 1850 refused to accept him as their new pastor
During the revivals of the wild frontier none of the churches used instruments and rejected them on Biblical grounds. The Baptist still fought the organ (only they said) until after 1900. So, it is not true that Churches of Christ invented NOT using "machines for doing hard work." A church of Christ is a school of the Word (the Regulative Principle forbidding music] and will never change
The historic scholars who rejected instruments were great LATIN scholars. Both the Greek and Latin radically condemn any rhetorical or musical performance when the church asssembled and commanded to "use one mind and one mouth to teach that which is written for our lerning."
Daring to see how specific words such as Play, Mock, Revel mean will prove that instruments are the marks by Christ of those who do not follow the Word. Ezeloe; 26 amd 33. The BEASTS do not PLAY instruments in Revelation: when you hear the sounds-like the angel to the living says that this is a sign of judgment and commands that we Preach the Gospel.
1Ch_15:16 And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of musick, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy
"Prophesying with instruments" [Miriam and the Levites] is defined as soothsaying or sorcery as the words are used to mean the same thing. John calls them sorcerers in Revelation 18. I would't want to do that.
It has been noted that the Church of Christ is for Christians: Christians are disciples. It is correct that Jesus commanded to teach and observe what HE commanded to be taught. Peter affirms that Jesus made the prophecies by the Spirit OF of Chirst more certain. He said that as the Church is built upon or EDUCATED by the Prophets and apostles and that combination is not subject to private interpretation or further expounding.
The Israelites rose up in Instrumental rejoicing at Mount Sinai and as a result God removed THE BOOK OF THE COVENANT and gave them THE BOOK OF THE LAW. He sentenced them to Babylon for captivity and death. Stephen warns that this instrumental idolatry was the reason
God "turned them over to worship the starry host." Neither king, kingdom, temple, animal sacrifices, or MUSIC was ordained by God [Isaiah 1 and Jeremian 7]. The Jewish encyclopedia and all recorded evidence proves that the Monarchy was a CIVIL sacrificial system from which the godly people were quarantined.
Christ ordained the qahal, synagogue, ekklesia or Church of Christ (the Rock). It is defined as
INCLUSIVE of rest, reading and rehearsing the Word
EXCLUSIUVE of vocal or instrument rejoicing or Rhetoric
That never changed and was affirmed by John Calvin who called for a RESTORATION OF THE CHURCH OF CHRIST
That was affirmed by the Campbells who defined:
CHURCH: is a school of Christ through the Word: the Word or LOGOS is defined as the Regulative principle and is the OPPPOSITE of rhetoric, singing, playing instruments or acting.
WORSHIP: is defined as READING AND MUSING THE WORD
Jesus exampled it, Paul and Peter commanded it (exclusively) and Churches of Christ under that name never fell into the entertainment trap.
The first Black American Methodist added the first ordan:
Thus, Bethel Baltimore became the first A.M.E. Church to have instrumental music during church services. The same organ is on display in the Bethel Museum. Because he was an advocate of unpopular practices such as instrumental music the church he was assigned to after Bethel in 1850 refused to accept him as their new pastor
During the revivals of the wild frontier none of the churches used instruments and rejected them on Biblical grounds. The Baptist still fought the organ (only they said) until after 1900. So, it is not true that Churches of Christ invented NOT using "machines for doing hard work." A church of Christ is a school of the Word (the Regulative Principle forbidding music] and will never change
The historic scholars who rejected instruments were great LATIN scholars. Both the Greek and Latin radically condemn any rhetorical or musical performance when the church asssembled and commanded to "use one mind and one mouth to teach that which is written for our lerning."
Daring to see how specific words such as Play, Mock, Revel mean will prove that instruments are the marks by Christ of those who do not follow the Word. Ezeloe; 26 amd 33. The BEASTS do not PLAY instruments in Revelation: when you hear the sounds-like the angel to the living says that this is a sign of judgment and commands that we Preach the Gospel.
Does someone in your church lead the singing every week? There's no command in the NT for that position.
Does your church had a pastor who preaches every week? There's no command in the NT for that position.
Does your church meet in a building other than a house? There's no command in the NT for that.
Does your church have specific songs you sing where words are written down on paper or on a screen? There's no command for that in the NT.
Gotta be careful with the standards you set against instruments. That same standard can get many of your practices in trouble.
Does your church had a pastor who preaches every week? There's no command in the NT for that position.
Does your church meet in a building other than a house? There's no command in the NT for that.
Does your church have specific songs you sing where words are written down on paper or on a screen? There's no command for that in the NT.
Gotta be careful with the standards you set against instruments. That same standard can get many of your practices in trouble.
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