Churches of Christ with or without instruments, which is the right way to worship?
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Apart from the grace of God no man shall see heaven. With or without instruments in the congregation heaven can only be entered into by those who are made the righteousness of God in Christ. Works and abstaining from this or that mean nothing. It is grace alone by which we are saved. Grace received through simple child like faith.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
For the cause of Christ
Roger
There are many probelms in going back to the OT law to find justification for a practice. The entire Galatain epistle is about Paul condemning the Galtians for leaving Chrit's NT and returning to that OT law thinking they could be jsutified by keeping circumcision. FOr leeaving the NT and returning to the OT Paul told themthey had leftthe gospelunto a false gospel, they had quit obeying the truth, they were trying to make Christ's death in vain, theyhad fallen from grace. This would also be true of me for leaving Chris't's NT to return to the OT to justify using IM.
Paul also told them in Gal 5:3 "I testify again to every man that receiveth circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the whole law"
THe point being there is no cherry-picking out of a law what you like and disregarding the rest of the law you do not like. So if you return to the OT for justification to use IM,then you have an obligation to contend for the WHOLE law.
Again, if you are ready to literlize harps in Rev 14:1,2 then are you ready to literalize only 144,000 being in heaven?
Furthermore, even if the harps were literal, physical harps that does not authorize the use of them here on earth within the church. Mt 22:30 there is no marriage or giving in marriage in heaven. Does this sanction that no marriage should take place in the church today here on earth? No. So harps in heaven would not sanction their use here on earth in the church.
Huh??? To be clear, you are actually saying peanuts and o.j. can be used for the Lord's Supper and that would be acceptable with God?
So you are arguing Noah could have built the ark out of oak and still done as God said?
God did not specify the tool hammer, but using a hammer did not add to or change God's instructions in how the ark was to be built but a hammer would be an aid in carrying out that command to build an ark.
Question: In the great commisson, Mt 28:19,20, Jesus commanded His disciples to "go". Yet in this context, nowhere did Jesus authorize a certain mode of transportation/communication. So what mode of transportation/communication could the disciples use since none was specifically authorized?
Paul also told them in Gal 5:3 "I testify again to every man that receiveth circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the whole law"
THe point being there is no cherry-picking out of a law what you like and disregarding the rest of the law you do not like. So if you return to the OT for justification to use IM,then you have an obligation to contend for the WHOLE law.
Again, if you are ready to literlize harps in Rev 14:1,2 then are you ready to literalize only 144,000 being in heaven?
Furthermore, even if the harps were literal, physical harps that does not authorize the use of them here on earth within the church. Mt 22:30 there is no marriage or giving in marriage in heaven. Does this sanction that no marriage should take place in the church today here on earth? No. So harps in heaven would not sanction their use here on earth in the church.
Huh??? To be clear, you are actually saying peanuts and o.j. can be used for the Lord's Supper and that would be acceptable with God?
So you are arguing Noah could have built the ark out of oak and still done as God said?
God did not specify the tool hammer, but using a hammer did not add to or change God's instructions in how the ark was to be built but a hammer would be an aid in carrying out that command to build an ark.
Question: In the great commisson, Mt 28:19,20, Jesus commanded His disciples to "go". Yet in this context, nowhere did Jesus authorize a certain mode of transportation/communication. So what mode of transportation/communication could the disciples use since none was specifically authorized?
I'm not sure if this has been discussed yet,and if so, forgive me. What does the word "psalm" mean in the following verses?
Ephesians 5:19 " speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs,singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord"
Colossians 3:16 " Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishingone another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God."
Ephesians 5:19 " speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs,singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord"
Colossians 3:16 " Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishingone another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God."
As for "idolatry" I have no interest in deciding what people do or do not do: I just note that the Churches of Christ did not invent NOT using musical instruments as worship. When the Calvin Restoration concept entered into America, people became aware of what he called the "Regulative Principle." Calvin didn't invent the concept: God is the LOGOS in contrast to the Greek Hermes or Mercury or Kairos. The LOGOS is defined by the Greek literature as The Regulative or Governing Principle of the universe. The form of speaking the LOGOS or Word is LEXIS which is the opposite of ODE. The LOGOS is used with the Greeks as the OPPOSITE of rhetoric, singing, playing instruments or acting. For instance, in Romans 14 Paul silences anything that does not edify or educate. In Romans 15 he warned not to engage in SELF-pleasure. The Greek "Areskos" or the Latin "Placeo" excludes all of the things such as rhetoric, singing, playing or acting. The action forbidden for that short period Paul calls "synagogue" Creates Mental Excitement which is not conducive to his positive command to "use one mind and one mouth" to "speak that which is written for our learning" or "Scripture for our comfort." The Laded Burden Jesus came to silence includes all of these actions which "create spiritual anxiety through religious rituals." Then, Jesus invites the twos and threes to REST: Paul has the same meaning as Sabbath or REST. In that REST from our actions He invites us to "Come Learn of Me."
The Church of Christ was introduced into the US defined by Thomas Campbell's Declaration and Address. The Purpose defined what the Spirit OF Christ in the wilderness as:
CHURCH is A School of Christ through the Word (Logos or regulative principle.)
WORSHIP is Reading and Musing the Word of God.
The goal was that each believer become a Disciple of what Jesus commanded to be taught and observed.
His naive goal was that a SOCIETY exists in each community: as Paul restricts private opinions in Romans 14, there would be no discord if everyone followed the pattern which Christ ordained from the wilderness onward.
History notes that the Gentiles favored the Jewish synagogue because it had no rituals: they opened with a prayer and then the Biblical Text was read in a systematic way. The prophets spoke to the spiritual side of the nation and the reader's comment was limited to translation or explaining any thing people didn't understand. That is why the Gentiles were "wise unto salvation" when Jesus came:
Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that PREACH him, being READ in the synagogues every sabbath day.
That was still the pattern in the epistles such as 2 Corinthians 3 where Paul said that the Jews could not READ the Word or HEAR the Word until they were converted to Christ.
I can say that people who have never engaged in any kind of performance music understand that one is forced to give their attention (worship) to the musical performers. Greek scholars note that playing the flute prevents learning: I find it hard to think about the WORD when the preacher is telling you about his experiences: which, by the way is defined as PATHOS which is the opposite to LOGOS or Regulative principle. Churches of Christ were at one time focused on the LEARNING concept rather than a liturgical action performed for them by others.
Historic scholars which I can quote identify any kind of diverting pleasure as idolatry. Churches of Christ never make an issue of it until someone boasts about 'infiltrating and diverting' their house and family to musical performance. I am not aware that any historical reference attributes anything but pleasure to music along with drinking and sleeping. I have had to accept the invitation to "come outside of the camp" to rest, and learn the Word available without a human mediator. I leave the judging to others but for me I am truly an Ahedonia person: what sounds wise and slick music sounds like noise to me and probably the masses who choose not to pay for musical performance on Sunday morning. There are some recent studies on Ahedonia as well as music-induced endorphines (morphine-like). Whether idolatry or not I just don't choose to pay someone to aggitate my natural anxiety.
The Church of Christ was introduced into the US defined by Thomas Campbell's Declaration and Address. The Purpose defined what the Spirit OF Christ in the wilderness as:
CHURCH is A School of Christ through the Word (Logos or regulative principle.)
WORSHIP is Reading and Musing the Word of God.
The goal was that each believer become a Disciple of what Jesus commanded to be taught and observed.
His naive goal was that a SOCIETY exists in each community: as Paul restricts private opinions in Romans 14, there would be no discord if everyone followed the pattern which Christ ordained from the wilderness onward.
History notes that the Gentiles favored the Jewish synagogue because it had no rituals: they opened with a prayer and then the Biblical Text was read in a systematic way. The prophets spoke to the spiritual side of the nation and the reader's comment was limited to translation or explaining any thing people didn't understand. That is why the Gentiles were "wise unto salvation" when Jesus came:
Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that PREACH him, being READ in the synagogues every sabbath day.
That was still the pattern in the epistles such as 2 Corinthians 3 where Paul said that the Jews could not READ the Word or HEAR the Word until they were converted to Christ.
I can say that people who have never engaged in any kind of performance music understand that one is forced to give their attention (worship) to the musical performers. Greek scholars note that playing the flute prevents learning: I find it hard to think about the WORD when the preacher is telling you about his experiences: which, by the way is defined as PATHOS which is the opposite to LOGOS or Regulative principle. Churches of Christ were at one time focused on the LEARNING concept rather than a liturgical action performed for them by others.
Historic scholars which I can quote identify any kind of diverting pleasure as idolatry. Churches of Christ never make an issue of it until someone boasts about 'infiltrating and diverting' their house and family to musical performance. I am not aware that any historical reference attributes anything but pleasure to music along with drinking and sleeping. I have had to accept the invitation to "come outside of the camp" to rest, and learn the Word available without a human mediator. I leave the judging to others but for me I am truly an Ahedonia person: what sounds wise and slick music sounds like noise to me and probably the masses who choose not to pay for musical performance on Sunday morning. There are some recent studies on Ahedonia as well as music-induced endorphines (morphine-like). Whether idolatry or not I just don't choose to pay someone to aggitate my natural anxiety.
Again the silence argument does not work, it's illogical.
When God said sing that eliminates instuments without God having to specifically forbid instuments.
Just as when God said gopher wood that automatically elimnated all other types of wood WITHOUT God having to specifically forbid them each by name.
If your employer tells you to be at work by 8:00am does that mean you can show up at 3:00pm in the afternoon and when your employer asks you why you came in at 3:00pm you say..."well you never specifically told me to NOT be here at 3:00pm"
Let us know how that "logic" goes over with your employer.
It's the same thing. The building of the ark and the commands God gave concerning it were to be obeyed by Noah long, long before Christ came to earth taking the OT out of the way.
It's the logical example from that OT story that is being avoided. Could Noah build the ark out of oak since oak was not specifically forbidden and yet still do as God said?
It's the logical example from that OT story that is being avoided. Could Noah build the ark out of oak since oak was not specifically forbidden and yet still do as God said?
The BOOK of Psalms is made up of Psalms (Mizmors), Hymns (the hallels), Spiritual Songs and maschels (sp) or dark saying. In Romans 15 Paul defines "that which is written for our learning." Paul would have had the mizmors in mind: there are 57 and only 50 of these were for non-clergy use. None of these include instruments. There is no example of God calling the general population out for "congregational singing with or without instruments." Many of the Psalms are warrior chants and were used by the Levites to spook the enemy or evil spirits hovering around the not-commanded animal sacrifices. Psalm has the same definition as SO
You Read a song, you can recite a Psalm, you can sing a song to a tune, you can sing a song to a tune with instrumental accompaniment.
In the Text it takes three words to say (1) sing, and (2) play-psallo, and (3) a harp or other stringed instrument
Isaiah 23:15 And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot.
Isaiah 23:16 Take an [1[ harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet [2] melody, sing many [3] songs, that thou mayest be remembered.
Isaiah 23:17 And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth.
Isaiah 14:11 Thy [1] pomp is brought down to the grave, and the [2] noise of thy [3] viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the maggots cover thee.
Amos 5:23 Take thou away from me the noise of thy [1] songs; for I will not hear the [2] melody of thy [3] viols.
In Ephesians and Colossians Paul commands that we SPEAK this material: it is for learning
After Passover Jesus and the Apostles DICTO (spoke) a HYMN.
The Bible also bites into Churches of Christ who never "sing that which is written for our learning."
So, lets ALL get back to the Bible and never depend on anyone else to perform worship for you. I got a lot smarter at about age 70 when I learned how to read the whole story line.
You Read a song, you can recite a Psalm, you can sing a song to a tune, you can sing a song to a tune with instrumental accompaniment.
In the Text it takes three words to say (1) sing, and (2) play-psallo, and (3) a harp or other stringed instrument
Isaiah 23:15 And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot.
Isaiah 23:16 Take an [1[ harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet [2] melody, sing many [3] songs, that thou mayest be remembered.
Isaiah 23:17 And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth.
Isaiah 14:11 Thy [1] pomp is brought down to the grave, and the [2] noise of thy [3] viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the maggots cover thee.
Amos 5:23 Take thou away from me the noise of thy [1] songs; for I will not hear the [2] melody of thy [3] viols.
In Ephesians and Colossians Paul commands that we SPEAK this material: it is for learning
After Passover Jesus and the Apostles DICTO (spoke) a HYMN.
The Bible also bites into Churches of Christ who never "sing that which is written for our learning."
So, lets ALL get back to the Bible and never depend on anyone else to perform worship for you. I got a lot smarter at about age 70 when I learned how to read the whole story line.
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