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Why may I ask then do you waste you precious fleeting life here with a bunch of religious simpletons that believe in fairy tales?
Whats up with that?
You will never in a million years convince me or anyone else who has been born of the Spirit that the bible is not the inspired word of God or that Jesus Christ is not the virgin born Son of God.
Do you also want to become Jesus disciple?
Whats up with that?
You will never in a million years convince me or anyone else who has been born of the Spirit that the bible is not the inspired word of God or that Jesus Christ is not the virgin born Son of God.
Do you also want to become Jesus disciple?
J
I have gone over why the Bible is specific and unique among all religious books and how the many miracles, healings, and delieverances that occur today in the name of Jesus give great evidence for it being the Word of God with IntotheVoid and Cycel on this thread already. Though If you wish me to repeat these things, I will, as I legitimately enjoy speaking with you guys.
However, I must be off to bed Deepthought. Until tomorrow my friends!
May God give you the ears to hear Him knocking at the door, and the grace to open it.
evidence
ˈɛvɪd(ə)ns/Submit
noun
1.
verb
verb: evidence; 3rd person present: evidences; past tense: evidenced; past participle: evidenced; gerund or present participle: evidencing
1.
indisputable
ɪndɪˈspjuːtəb(ə)l,ɪnˈdɪspjʊtəb(ə)l/Submit
adjective
1.
ˈɛvɪd(ə)ns/Submit
noun
1.
the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
"the study finds little evidence of overt discrimination"
synonyms: proof, confirmation, verification, substantiation, corroboration, affirmation, authentication, attestation, documentation;
LAW
information drawn from personal testimony, a document, or a material object, used to establish facts in a legal investigation or admissible as testimony in a law court.
"without evidence, they can't bring a charge"
synonyms: proof, confirmation, verification, substantiation, corroboration, affirmation, authentication, attestation, documentation; More
signs or indications of something.
plural noun: evidences
"there was no obvious evidence of a break-in"
synonyms: signs, indications, pointers, marks, traces, suggestions, hints;
verb
verb: evidence; 3rd person present: evidences; past tense: evidenced; past participle: evidenced; gerund or present participle: evidencing
1.
be or show evidence of.
"the quality of the bracelet, as evidenced by the workmanship, is exceptional"
synonyms: indicate, show, reveal, be evidence of, display, exhibit, manifest, denote, evince, signify
indisputable
ɪndɪˈspjuːtəb(ə)l,ɪnˈdɪspjʊtəb(ə)l/Submit
adjective
1.
unable to be challenged or denied.
"a far from indisputable fact"
synonyms: incontrovertible, incontestable, undeniable, irrefutable, unassailable, beyond dispute, unquestionable, beyond question, indubitable, not in doubt, beyond doubt, beyond a shadow of a doubt, unarguable, inarguable, undebatable, unanswerable;
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[h=3]Isaiah 40:26 ESV / 60 helpful votes[/h]Lift up your eyes on high and see: who created these? He who brings out their host by number, calling them all by name, by the greatness of his might, and because he is strong in power not one is missing.
[h=3]Daniel 12:3 ESV / 53 helpful votes[/h]And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.In fact stars are being born and ceasing to be all across the known universe even as we speak. How do I know this. We can see it! Not just from Hubble but even observations from earth can clearly see the formation of distant galaxies, the nebula in which stars start their lives and super-novi which exist upon some of their ends. Our sun, like any star, will most likely have the same life cycle and span as other similar to it. All of this not a a grand design but following predictable models based on how we understand the physics which govern our universe to date. How did those laws come into being at the moment of the start of this universe, no one knows, but that won;t stop them looking for an answer following the scientific model of analysis and provable theory.
I see the devils were reading the Bible again and inspired imitations of Isaiah 7:14 in pagan mythologies. I won't claim to know how the devils influence people but the influence is there. (James 2:19, 2 Corinthians 4:4).
When Christ was born in Bethlehem, Roman King Herod ordered the slaughter of all infants there aged two and younger. Joseph and Mary and Jesus fled to Egypt. These events also were prophesied in the Bible many centuries earlier. See Micah 5:2, Matthew 2:16-18 fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:15, Hosea 11:1.
In Isaiah 53, the Messiah's rejection was prophesied as well as multiple details of his sufferings and scourging with a whip.
When Christ was born in Bethlehem, Roman King Herod ordered the slaughter of all infants there aged two and younger. Joseph and Mary and Jesus fled to Egypt. These events also were prophesied in the Bible many centuries earlier. See Micah 5:2, Matthew 2:16-18 fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:15, Hosea 11:1.
In Isaiah 53, the Messiah's rejection was prophesied as well as multiple details of his sufferings and scourging with a whip.
Reading from Francis Collins' Language of God, I see his experience in medical school where patients were brought to class with sickle cell anemia, galactosemia (milk intolerance) and Down syndrome, "all caused by glitches in the genome, some as subtle as a single letter gone awry.".
When mutations occur in the intelligent design of the human genetic code, it causes diseases not marvelous, evolved enhancements.
Random mutations can be expected to produce chaos and harm not order and enhancements. I will keep reading.
When mutations occur in the intelligent design of the human genetic code, it causes diseases not marvelous, evolved enhancements.
Random mutations can be expected to produce chaos and harm not order and enhancements. I will keep reading.
I am at a bit of a loss. Gregory, do you mean to say you knowingly present irrational arguments? Why do you do this? Is it just because you enjoy being annoying?
But you know what? I am going to shoot your argument down anyway, because that is what I like to do.
If it is true, as you say, that in order to deny the existence of something one must first believe the truth of the claim, then this same convoluted thinking must apply to a whole host of things.
i) Let’s see, in order to deny the existence of the atheist you must first believe atheists exist.
ii) In order to deny the existence of alien kidnapping you must first believe aliens have come to earth and kidnapped humans. Gregory, were you kidnapped by aliens? It that why you believe this? Has the trauma unhinged you and led to irrational thinking?
I could go on with the Loch Ness monster, ghosts, leprechauns, and so on, but I imagine you’ve grasped the point.
PS. Please respond if you think I have somehow missed your point.
But you know what? I am going to shoot your argument down anyway, because that is what I like to do.
If it is true, as you say, that in order to deny the existence of something one must first believe the truth of the claim, then this same convoluted thinking must apply to a whole host of things.
i) Let’s see, in order to deny the existence of the atheist you must first believe atheists exist.
ii) In order to deny the existence of alien kidnapping you must first believe aliens have come to earth and kidnapped humans. Gregory, were you kidnapped by aliens? It that why you believe this? Has the trauma unhinged you and led to irrational thinking?
I could go on with the Loch Ness monster, ghosts, leprechauns, and so on, but I imagine you’ve grasped the point.
PS. Please respond if you think I have somehow missed your point.
I am at a bit of a loss. Gregory, do you mean to say you knowingly present irrational arguments? Why do you do this? Is it just because you enjoy being annoying?
But you know what? I am going to shoot your argument down anyway, because that is what I like to do.
If it is true, as you say, that in order to deny the existence of something one must first believe the truth of the claim, then this same convoluted thinking must apply to a whole host of things.
i) Let’s see, in order to deny the existence of the atheist you must first believe atheists exist.
ii) In order to deny the existence of alien kidnapping you must first believe aliens have come to earth and kidnapped humans. Gregory, were you kidnapped by aliens? It that why you believe this? Has the trauma unhinged you and led to irrational thinking?
I could go on with the Loch Ness monster, ghosts, leprechauns, and so on, but I imagine you’ve grasped the point.
PS. Please respond if you think I have somehow missed your point.
But you know what? I am going to shoot your argument down anyway, because that is what I like to do.
If it is true, as you say, that in order to deny the existence of something one must first believe the truth of the claim, then this same convoluted thinking must apply to a whole host of things.
i) Let’s see, in order to deny the existence of the atheist you must first believe atheists exist.
ii) In order to deny the existence of alien kidnapping you must first believe aliens have come to earth and kidnapped humans. Gregory, were you kidnapped by aliens? It that why you believe this? Has the trauma unhinged you and led to irrational thinking?
I could go on with the Loch Ness monster, ghosts, leprechauns, and so on, but I imagine you’ve grasped the point.
PS. Please respond if you think I have somehow missed your point.
Note: people go to hospitals when things go awry, not when they've gone right. You wouldn't expect to see people with advantageous gene mutations showing up to have their advantageous genes treated.
Indeed, it is estimated that fully half of all conceptions are lost due to anomalies with the genes. In fact if you look into it, we all have genetic mutations. The gross errors and malformations, etc., get weeded out quickly. Those 'monsters' are typically lost in the first weeks. Others get weeded out further down the line, but yes, I agree, random mutations often result in organisms that can't survive, or that do survive but are damaged. That said, we all live with mutations, so it should be clear than much of the time genetic changes are neutral (and result in what might be called genetic drift), but over many generations must lead to very different looking organisms from their fore-bearers.
The most obvious argument that should make this clear to every Bible believing Christian is the story of Noah and the few members of his family that survived the Flood (assuming you actually believe this decidedly myth-like account, which I don't want to get into at the moment, so I take back what I said about the story sounding like a myth. ).
All humans were wiped out except for a handful, who no doubt shared the physical characteristics of the community in which they lived. Let's say they looked like classic Arabs. Within a few thousand years all the other races of humanity, that we know so well today, evolved. I would call this type of change genetic drift, but let me point out that along the way there had to be frequent genetic failures. Those who did manage to survive the onslaught of constant genetic mutation each generation undergoes led, in time, to all the races we see today.
You can’t get this mixture of geographical differences in a species without constant genetic mutation taking place, and clearly, while there must have been numerous failures along the way the end result of evolutionary change is success.
Indeed, it is estimated that fully half of all conceptions are lost due to anomalies with the genes. In fact if you look into it, we all have genetic mutations. The gross errors and malformations, etc., get weeded out quickly. Those 'monsters' are typically lost in the first weeks. Others get weeded out further down the line, but yes, I agree, random mutations often result in organisms that can't survive, or that do survive but are damaged. That said, we all live with mutations, so it should be clear than much of the time genetic changes are neutral (and result in what might be called genetic drift), but over many generations must lead to very different looking organisms from their fore-bearers.
The most obvious argument that should make this clear to every Bible believing Christian is the story of Noah and the few members of his family that survived the Flood (assuming you actually believe this decidedly myth-like account, which I don't want to get into at the moment, so I take back what I said about the story sounding like a myth.
). All humans were wiped out except for a handful, who no doubt shared the physical characteristics of the community in which they lived. Let's say they looked like classic Arabs. Within a few thousand years all the other races of humanity, that we know so well today, evolved. I would call this type of change genetic drift, but let me point out that along the way there had to be frequent genetic failures. Those who did manage to survive the onslaught of constant genetic mutation each generation undergoes led, in time, to all the races we see today.
You can’t get this mixture of geographical differences in a species without constant genetic mutation taking place, and clearly, while there must have been numerous failures along the way the end result of evolutionary change is success.
You are very welcome.
Note, if you ever have any of your own recommendations that you think I might find particularly useful, feel free to let me know. I'll add them to my reading list. Right now I am a little better than half way through Tyson's book, The Space Chronicles.
As for Collins, that quote reflects an earlier view of Stephen J. Gould, which he took some flack for from some in the scientific community, Dawkins in particular, I think. Wikipedia says the following:
Non-overlapping magisteria (NOMA) is the view advocated by Stephen Jay Gould that science and religion each have “a legitimate magisterium, or domain of teaching authority,” and these two domains do not overlap.
What I did not know was that the National Academy of Sciences made a similar statement: “Scientists, like many others, are touched with awe at the order and complexity of nature. Indeed, many scientists are deeply religious. But science and religion occupy two separate realms of human experience. Demanding that they be combined detracts from the glory of each.” (see Wikipedia: Non-overlapping magisteria)
Note, if you ever have any of your own recommendations that you think I might find particularly useful, feel free to let me know. I'll add them to my reading list. Right now I am a little better than half way through Tyson's book, The Space Chronicles.
As for Collins, that quote reflects an earlier view of Stephen J. Gould, which he took some flack for from some in the scientific community, Dawkins in particular, I think. Wikipedia says the following:
Non-overlapping magisteria (NOMA) is the view advocated by Stephen Jay Gould that science and religion each have “a legitimate magisterium, or domain of teaching authority,” and these two domains do not overlap.
What I did not know was that the National Academy of Sciences made a similar statement: “Scientists, like many others, are touched with awe at the order and complexity of nature. Indeed, many scientists are deeply religious. But science and religion occupy two separate realms of human experience. Demanding that they be combined detracts from the glory of each.” (see Wikipedia: Non-overlapping magisteria)
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Cycel, I have read more on NOMA. It can be humbling to learn what I didn't know. Thank you for another piece of education. .
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I've had a long standing interest in astronomy, and so in making your comment, you've piqued my interest.
I gather that you think astronomers must be exhibiting nothing but faith when they claim to observe stellar nurseries? Do you reject the scientific claim that stars form from giant molecular clouds? If you do reject this is your rejection based on faith or upon a claim to scientific understanding. If you claim a basis in faith then I think you are admitting to no scientific understanding. If you are claiming scientific understanding, then what is it you know that the astronomers don't?
I gather that you think astronomers must be exhibiting nothing but faith when they claim to observe stellar nurseries? Do you reject the scientific claim that stars form from giant molecular clouds? If you do reject this is your rejection based on faith or upon a claim to scientific understanding. If you claim a basis in faith then I think you are admitting to no scientific understanding. If you are claiming scientific understanding, then what is it you know that the astronomers don't?
Michael Shermer has noted that devout Christians are often highly intelligent, creative people, and I've sometimes wondered if it is that propensity to creativity that makes you susceptible to seeing more than what is there? Just pointing out that you don't need to view our interest in you as an insult.
A few mornings ago I woke from an unusual dream. I found myself at the creek where I had spent the better part of my childhood. Only instead of playing with friends I was set upon by lions. They were everywhere I turned. Every path I tried to take was blocked. There must have been 15 or 20 of them. Finally I found a path through the trees and ran to my childhood home where I found my mother and told her what happened. Then I woke.
What the hell had precipitated this dream! It made no sense. I thought about it for a while then I promptly forgot about it. Later, in the afternoon something jogged my memory and I recalled watching a video just before bed of an adolescent elephant trying to fend off an attack by a large pack of lions. The whole tragic affair (tragic for the elephant) had been filmed by a night vision camera. The lions feasted that night.
We dream about things we've witnessed, and dream about things we dwell upon. If you dwell upon God, Jesus, angels, devils, those are the things you will dream. It's no mystery. If you assume you are being contacted by supernatural forces as you sleep then you are no different, in that respect, from the pagan peoples of antiquity who made the same assumptions; but here's a question: Does God tell you things in your dream that are new to you? Are dreams places of revelation with an upper case 'R'? Can information be imparted to you in dreams that is totally revelatory to mankind. Can you acquire knowledge that the next Christian might not know, or is God only going to tell you things that you already know, and that can readily be found in scripture?
What the hell had precipitated this dream! It made no sense. I thought about it for a while then I promptly forgot about it. Later, in the afternoon something jogged my memory and I recalled watching a video just before bed of an adolescent elephant trying to fend off an attack by a large pack of lions. The whole tragic affair (tragic for the elephant) had been filmed by a night vision camera. The lions feasted that night.
We dream about things we've witnessed, and dream about things we dwell upon. If you dwell upon God, Jesus, angels, devils, those are the things you will dream. It's no mystery. If you assume you are being contacted by supernatural forces as you sleep then you are no different, in that respect, from the pagan peoples of antiquity who made the same assumptions; but here's a question: Does God tell you things in your dream that are new to you? Are dreams places of revelation with an upper case 'R'? Can information be imparted to you in dreams that is totally revelatory to mankind. Can you acquire knowledge that the next Christian might not know, or is God only going to tell you things that you already know, and that can readily be found in scripture?
A
The section where you repent.
"And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." -Hebrews 11:6
"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil." -John 3:18-19.
"Then he said to Thomas, 'Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.' Thomas answered him, 'My Lord and my God!' Jesus said to him, 'Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.'” -John 20:27-29
"We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life." -1 John 5:19-21
"If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain." -1 Timothy 6:3-5
"Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.” -2 Corinthians 6:14-18
"And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." -Hebrews 11:6
"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil." -John 3:18-19.
"Then he said to Thomas, 'Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.' Thomas answered him, 'My Lord and my God!' Jesus said to him, 'Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.'” -John 20:27-29
"We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life." -1 John 5:19-21
"If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain." -1 Timothy 6:3-5
"Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.” -2 Corinthians 6:14-18