Repentance Vs Eternal Security

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
i believe you you already know the answers to most of those questions. In fact you've already furnished some of the scriptures that answer them. Neither you or ES have answered my post 309, yet you want me to answer your questions. I repeat, ANY sin, unrepented of, can send us to hell.

Then you and every other person who has ever lived except Christ is doomed. There is NO Scripture to back up what you say.

To believe what you say, one has to believe that ANY sin is more powerful than the Blood of Christ.

That is not Good News; it is not the Gospel.

17711_10151344471439001_177909063_n.png



well, of course a sinner can repent and get back in God's good graces.

There's no Scripture to back up the concept of 'getting back in God's good graces'. You are either a forgiven person or you are not. and once you have received the free gift of forgiveness, ALL of your sins, past, present, and future, have been cast as far as the East is from the West. You may be holding your sins against yourself, but God is not (see 2 Cor. 5:16-21, Gal. 2:18).


  • What has to happen for there to be further forgiveness for sins (if it were necessary, which it is not)?
  • Blood would have to be shed.
  • Whose Blood?
  • Christ's!
  • Did He already do that work, on the Cross?
  • Yes.
  • Is He doming back to do it again?
  • No!
  • Why not?
  • Because once was enough! (see Hebrews 10)


Why do you insist on dragging Christ back to the Cross as if His Work is not more significant than your sinning?

His Work was more than sufficient to be the propitiation for not only ALL of your sins, but also for ALL of the sins of the WHOLE world! (1 Jn. 2:2)

This in no way contradicts the two Heb. Passages you refer to. Show me where you think they contradict.

Conditional Security contradicts the whole of the message of the letter to the Hebrews. Hebrews is all about how the New Covenant is a better Covenant that is built on better promises than the Old. Repeated confession and repentance - the way you describe it - is reducing the New Covenant down to Old Covenant practice minus animal sacrifices. What you're doing is WORSE - putting the Blood of the New Covenant to shame by saying that ANY sin is more powerful than the Blood of Christ.

Conditional Security folks will usually use Hebrews 10:26 to say that too much sinning, and look out, you'll lose your salvation - you better 'get right' with God and fly straight, while preaching that in Hebrews 6 it teaches that once you've tasted the goodness of God, if you fall away, too bad, so sad, there is no coming back to repentance. There is no hope in that message - it is not Good News, and by definition, not the Gospel.

The repeated sinning spoken of in Hebrews 10:26 is the repeated sin of unbelief - that is an unsaved person. Once one receives Christ and His righteousness, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit, guaranteeing them for the day of redemption (Romans 5, Ephesians 1).

Hebrews 6, when it talks about how it's impossible to return to repentance, is speaking of the repentance unto salvation. Once sealed with the Holy Spirit, He GUARANTEES you - delivers you allllllll the way to the day of Redemption. It's impossible to drift in and out of a state of forgiveness - it's impossible to be brought BACK to salvation because you cannot be UNsaved once saved - because you ARE SO SECURE in Christ's Hand, it's IMPOSSIBLE to be brought back to repentance unto salvation.

Does that mean we never repent as Christians? No. Repentance is a change of mind and heart (a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done as G3341 - metanoia, the Greek word for repentance). As believers, we change our minds and hearts as we grow and mature in Christ to line up more an more with what He says about us and who we are in Christ. As what we believe lines up more and more with what God says, our behavior changes to more and more reflect the Character of Christ. It's about the renewal of the mind (Romans 12:1-2) and the bearing of the Fruit of the Holy Spirit as we learn to be led by Him (Galatians 5).

What you are advocating is a return to Old Covenant practices - that is putting yourself under your own constructed version of law (repent, confess, rinse and repeat ad nauseam, not recognizing the Finished Work of Christ able to save you COMPLETELY), and if you are under law, you are not led by the Spirit, and not bearing His Fruit.

You're out here telling people that ANY sin they commit is more powerful than the Blood of Christ.

Scripture tells people that if they are in Christ, they are the very Righteousness of God in Christ, and God is no longer holding their sins, ANY of their sins, against them (Romans 5, 2 Corinthians 5).

I'm goin' with what Scripture says!

-JGIG
 
If you believe that, then you must draw the line somewhere:

  • What's too much sinning?
  • Are there some sins that are worse than others?
  • What kinds of sinning are going to put you over that 'line'?
  • What Scriptures define that line?
  • Do those Scriptures that you may think of define sins that Jesus did not die for?
  • Who determines the 'Biblical Standard'?
  • What if the backslidden believer comes to repentance (a change of mind and heart about their behavior) and comes back to Christ?
  • Can they do so?
  • If your answer is yes, then the Conditional Security interpretations of Hebrews 6:4-6 and 10:26 cannot both hold water at the same time . . .


Will anyone answer these questions using contextual Scripture?

I contend that the Eternal Security position has contextual Scriptural answers to all of the above questions without contradictions :).

-JGIG

UMM That's the wrong question. Because what is at the heart of the matter is when does continued sin cause one to fall into UNBELIEF. How is one declared righteous? We are declared righteous by FAITH. The Bible plainly shows that one is either in BELIEF or UNBELIEF. No one WITHOUT exception can be saved WITHOUT faith.

Those are the exact right questions. Believers, once saved, fall into 'unbelief' because they are being told they are no longer righteous because of sinning. The Righteousness that we as believers possess is not OUR righteousness, maintained or lost by OUR behavior. It is the righteousness of God IN CHRIST (Rom. 5, 2 Cor. 5), maintained by our Perfect High Priest, Jesus (Heb. 7-10).

We are declared righteous by GOD when we enter into the Promise of Righteousness through Christ. But from there it is not a white-knuckle ride, holding on as tight as we can to maintain our faith - Christ is the author and finisher of faith:

And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2
fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart. (from Heb. 12)


If we're focusing on having 'enough' faith, or on keeping our confession of sinning 'up-to-date', who are we focusing on? Ourselves or on Christ?

FIXING our eyes on Jesus, the Pioneer and Perfecter of faith! As we grow and mature in that faith - the faith that Christ is perfecting in us - the Holy Spirit, having sealed us when we believed guarantees to keep us until the day of redemption (Eph. 1). That is a hard and fast Promise in the Scriptures.


Does continued sexual sins cause one to fall away from the faith FASTER then smoking? And is that line DIFFERENT for each person when they can no longer be brought back to repentance?

Sarah, what is the penalty for sin?

Any sin?

Who paid that penalty?

For how many sins did He take that penalty? Show me ONE, just ONE verse, where it says He didn't provide propitiation for ALL of the sins of the world. The only sin that is not forgiven is the sin of unbelief. And one does not drift in and out of God's Righteousness based on how they're feeling because of their performance on any particular day/week/month/year. God's Grace teaches us to say no to ungodliness . . . and thankfully, He is much more patient with us than we are.

Don't confuse consequences in THIS life with the loss of Eternal Life.

-JGIG
 
Please explain if one has lost their faith and fallen into unbelief,how are they still declared righteous?

I addressed Who is the perfecter of faith in this post above: http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...tance-vs-eternal-security-17.html#post1451916

Who's setting the criteria to determine whether a person has actually fallen into 'unbelief' or whether they are just discouraged in their faith because they're believing stuff about themselves in Christ that isn't true? Maybe because judgemental believers are telling them that God is holding their sinning against them . . .

Consider this . . .



Fruit in a believers life does not come out fully formed and completely ripe.

Good fruit takes time.

Don’t judge the blossom because it’s not yet a strawberry.


Let me take the example of a morbidly obese person, say, around 300 lbs. or so. You may look at the person in question and make observations, thinking unkind thoughts about their size, their ‘obvious’ eating habits, their ‘obvious’ undisciplined lifestyle, their ‘obvious’ sin of gluttony, etc. Please do not misunderstand; I’m not saying at all that obesity is a sin. This is an illustration.

Now let’s take a look at what you don’t see, because you CANNOT see what GOD sees, and you may be greatly misinterpreting what’s going on in someone’s life or how you perceive leadership to be handling a situation. Be careful how you interpret what you think you see:

Perhaps that 300 lb. person used to be 500 lbs., and with God’s help, they have dropped 200 lbs. They have good days and bad days, calorically speaking, but they are a work in progress, keeping their eye on the goal, persevering, and relying on God’s Mercy and Grace to see them to the finish line. Some in that position will reach their goal in a relatively short period of time; for others, it will take a lifetime. For some, it may be a simple case of an over-active love for food. For others, maybe they have an underlying medical condition. For still others, it may be a comfort thing, where they are replacing the lack of care and love in their lives with food. Whatever the issues, God is faithful to progressively address and minister to those issues over time.

Now let’s apply that same concept of what you can and cannot see to all different kinds of situations and sin scenarios. I won’t detail any here; we all have people and situations familiar to us that we’re thinking of right now.

Here’s the thing: While some are radically delivered from their addictions and/or lifestyles, for many, though positionally they have been forgiven of all their sins, it can be a life-long process for them to have victory over sinning.

For most, behavior is a manifestation of heart issues, and those things are not dealt with by employing behavior modification techniques. Those are things that take time to heal – not that God can’t deliver immediately and completely – that can and does happen – but for many, like skittish animals that have been abused, it takes time (for some, a lifetime) for the deeply wounded to learn to trust Who God is, how completely He loves and accepts them, and who they are in Him.

That said, God does save completely:

Hebrews 7:18-26
18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:


“The Lord has sworn

and will not change his mind:
‘You are a priest forever.’”

22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant.


23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

As a result, we have unlimited and uninterrupted access to the Grace of God:


Hebrews 4:14-16

14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.



However the woundedness manifests in sinful behavior, it is God’s desire to see the positional New Creation in Christ in the spirit become the New Creation in this life:


2 Corinthians 5:16-21

16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:

19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

20We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.

21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.


What struck me as I re-read the above portion of Scripture is that God is committing to us, the Body, this message - that in and through the Work of Christ, God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting people’s sins against them. I don’t often look to commentaries, but my sense in reading, “that this is the message of the Gospel that God is committing to us means that it is something that God is entrusting believers with, that we would communicate this Gospel of Grace, this Good News, to others, indicated by the ‘ambassadors’ language following. I found this, from Barnes’ Notes:


Tyndale renders this: “and hath committed unto us the preaching of the atonement.” The meaning is, that the office of making known the nature of this plan, and the conditions on which God was willing to be reconciled to man, had been committed to the ministers of the gospel.



The Scripture goes on to say that “We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making His appeal through us.” What kind of ambassadors of the message of reconciliation are we being?

How can we be proper ambassadors to the world if we, as the Body of Christ, are holding sins against people that God no longer holds against them?

I’m not speaking of Universalism, here, at all. What I am saying is that all sin was dealt with at the Cross; the sins of the entire world were propitiated for by the Work of Christ:


1 John 2:2

2He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.



That being the case, all do need to respond by faith to believe in the Work of Christ and receive that forgiveness and the free gift of righteousness (Romans 3:21-26, Romans 5:12-21, Romans 10:9-15).

By grace, through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9), we are then positionally declared justified and righteous not because of anything we have done or ever will do beyond receiving God’s free gift of righteousness, but because of Who Jesus is, His actions as the Last Adam – His Perfect Righteousness - which is imputed to us.

Note that imputed righteousness is preceded by imputed sin. It doesn’t seem fair: “ . . . as by one man sin entered the world, and death by sin . . . therefore as by the offense of one, judgement came upon all . . .” Neither is imputed righteousness ‘fair’: “ . . . For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.” (From Romans 5)


We are condemned by the sin of the First Adam (though the Scriptures cover the sin issue from two angles: sin was imputed to you, but by the Law we were all found guilty; no one is righteous). We who receive the gift of righteousness are declared righteous by the actions of the Last Adam (Christ Jesus). Not only that, but the result is this:

Romans 5:20-21
20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

It’s very convenient for a religious spirit to ‘deal with’ believers sinning by applying the nice, neat, template of Law (an improper use of the Law, as the Law was made for the unrighteous, not believers, who in Christ, are declared righteous). One can just throw the Law out there and hope that the ‘target’ will ‘get it’ and turn from their evil ways (reduction in sinning) under the threat of ‘or else’.
______________

That's excerpted from an article I wrote, Grace or Law? How Then, Shall We Live? Click the link to read the entire piece.

-JGIG
 
Last edited:
For how many sins did He take that penalty? Show me ONE, just ONE verse, where it says He didn't provide propitiation for ALL of the sins of the world. The only sin that is not forgiven is the sin of unbelief. And one does not drift in and out of God's Righteousness based on how they're feeling because of their performance on any particular day/week/month/year. God's Grace teaches us to say no to ungodliness . . . and thankfully, He is much more patient with us than we are.

Don't confuse consequences in THIS life with the loss of Eternal Life.

-JGIG

I'm not confusing it. If a believer falls INTO unbelief then HOW is that person is saved? Unbelief is NOT feelings of performance. I am talking about the consequences of falling into UNBELIEF. My Bible is very clear false teachers can pull us away from the faith,sin itself can pull us away the faith etc. Sorry my Bible says that Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven in this or the next,which would make two not one.
 
Those are the exact right questions. Believers, once saved, fall into 'unbelief' because they are being told they are no longer righteous because of sinning. The Righteousness that we as believers possess is not OUR righteousness, maintained or lost by OUR behavior. It is the righteousness of God IN CHRIST (Rom. 5, 2 Cor. 5), maintained by our Perfect High Priest, Jesus (Heb. 7-10).

We are declared righteous by GOD when we enter into the Promise of Righteousness through Christ. But from there it is not a white-knuckle ride, holding on as tight as we can to maintain our faith - Christ is the author and finisher of faith:

And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2
fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart. (from Heb. 12)


If we're focusing on having 'enough' faith, or on keeping our confession of sinning 'up-to-date', who are we focusing on? Ourselves or on Christ?

FIXING our eyes on Jesus, the Pioneer and Perfecter of faith! As we grow and mature in that faith - the faith that Christ is perfecting in us - the Holy Spirit, having sealed us when we believed guarantees to keep us until the day of redemption (Eph. 1). That is a hard and fast Promise in the Scriptures.




Sarah, what is the penalty for sin?

Any sin?

Who paid that penalty?

For how many sins did He take that penalty? Show me ONE, just ONE verse, where it says He didn't provide propitiation for ALL of the sins of the world. The only sin that is not forgiven is the sin of unbelief. And one does not drift in and out of God's Righteousness based on how they're feeling because of their performance on any particular day/week/month/year. God's Grace teaches us to say no to ungodliness . . . and thankfully, He is much more patient with us than we are.

Don't confuse consequences in THIS life with the loss of Eternal Life.

-JGIG

I'm not confusing it. If a believer falls INTO unbelief then HOW is that person is saved? Unbelief is NOT feelings of performance. I am talking about the consequences of falling into UNBELIEF. My Bible is very clear false teachers can pull us away from the faith,sin itself can pull us away the faith etc. Sorry my Bible says that Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven in this or the next,which would make two not one.

Sarah, I deal with a lot of folks who ascribe to something called the Hebrew Roots Movement. Some of those folks become so entangled by false teaching that they embrace Judaism and reject Christianity. This is what I write about folks like them (and you can apply other false belief systems to the same scenario) in Believers in the Hebrew Roots Movement: Are They Lost? :

There are some from the HRM who convert to Judaism outright. And there arises a real sticky wicket: Are we in a position to judge the heart regarding the salvation/eternal security of one who goes so far as to do something as drastic as that?

Here’s a question worth considering: Are they, by their actions carried out under deception, rejecting the True Christ Jesus in/from/through Whom, in the past, they may have been saved and received eternal life, or are they rejecting the Enemy’s portrayal of a false Messiah cleverly crafted and spun in Law-keeping sects’ doctrines?

If they were truly saved in their past, what will happen to them?


See – I’m thinking we preach the Gospel regardless – to bring the deceived back to have Christ – the REAL Christ - be of full effect again in their lives, and if they were never saved to begin with, to bring them to Christ for the first time!

That’s the beauty of the Gospel: The Gospel corrects error and brings LIFE, so no matter the ailment, the Gospel is the Cure!

Are we seeing Torah folks’ lives from the perspective of God, Who sees not only where they are, but where they’ve been and where they’re going? A deeply deceived person will believe and do really dumb stuff. I’m of the mind and heart to preach the Gospel full preach and let God work out who is saved and who is not – with the understanding that I have but a snapshot of most people’s lives - especially on the internet!

So let this be an exhortation/encouragement for those of you who interact with friends and loved ones who are in the Hebrew Roots Movement and other false belief systems. Don’t take the responsibility of sorting out ‘who’s saved and who isn’t’ on your own shoulders. It’s not your deal. Examine fruit? Absolutely. Call out error? You bet. Tell someone who may very well be saved but walking in error that they’re going to hell? No.



Instead, build them up in who they are in Christ; speak the simple Truths of the Gospel to them - lovingly and clearly to counter the falsehoods with which the Enemy seeks to muddy the waters as he drops the dirt of false doctrines into our streams of faith. If they’re already saved, the Gospel will correct the error they’re in if they’re willing. If they’re not already saved, communicating the Gospel to them will give them the opportunity to be reconciled to God in Christ.

Regardless, results are God’s business, not ours. We are called to speak Truth in Love, not to manipulate in order to get results.

Again, the Gospel corrects error and brings Life – think of how the Apostles dealt with error in the Apostolic writings. Sometimes they came at error head-on (absolutely appropriate on core issues), but mostly they just preached the Gospel of Grace and told believers who they are in Christ because of that Gospel (Who Jesus is, What He came to do, What that actually accomplished, and who believers are in Him). Some plant, some water, but God makes those seeds grow! If you’re not sure how to communicate the Gospel in an effective way, this is a good place to start, especially to those who are in Law-keeping sects: The Gospel
_____________________

See, Sarah, instead of building up the Body of Christ about who She is IN Christ, so many are centered on sin instead of centered on Christ.

Then they turn to law (rules, formulas, principles - whatever 'biblical standard' folks in a particular circle have determined is the 'fix' for sinning in their community), instead of focusing on the Work of Christ, who we are in Him, and being thankful for that.

THANKFULLNESS and being rooted and established in who we are in Christ builds faith and leads to changes in behavior! Right living follows right believing, not the other way around :).

-JGIG
 
See, Sarah, instead of building up the Body of Christ about who She is IN Christ, so many are centered on sin instead of centered on Christ.

Then they turn to law (rules, formulas, principles - whatever 'biblical standard' folks in a particular circle have determined is the 'fix' for sinning in their community), instead of focusing on the Work of Christ, who we are in Him, and being thankful for that.

THANKFULLNESS and being rooted and established in who we are in Christ builds faith and leads to changes in behavior! Right living follows right believing, not the other way around :).

-JGIG

I agree with you on a lot of what you said. See what I see is that all the warnings in the Bible all point to forsaking the faith. No where in the Bible can anyone find that anyone is saved in unbelief. We are declared righteous by faith,if there is no faith how then is one declared righteous?
 
I agree with you on a lot of what you said. See what I see is that all the warnings in the Bible all point to forsaking the faith. No where in the Bible can anyone find that anyone is saved in unbelief. We are declared righteous by faith,if there is no faith how then is one declared righteous?

Thanks :).

Reconsider this: Here’s a question worth considering: Are they, by their actions carried out under deception, rejecting the True Christ Jesus in/from/through Whom, in the past, they may have been saved and received eternal life, or are they rejecting the Enemy’s portrayal of a false Messiah cleverly crafted and spun in Law-keeping sects’ doctrines?

Only those who reject the Truth of the Gospel or have not received the Gospel are in unbelief - here's a bit more of my article that may shed some more light on where I'm coming from. Again, the entire piece can be read here: Believers in the Hebrew Roots Movement: Are They Lost?:


I firmly believe that believers who get hoodwinked into Law-keeping sects do not lose their salvation, but are neutralized in the Body – sterilized if you will – and will not ‘reproduce’, bringing the Lost into the Body.

________________________

Once someone is saved, the Enemy doesn't care whether or not you go on sinning or not - he does care whether or not you bear Fruit and become fruitful - reproducing by bringing the Lost into relationship with God. So he'll do everything he can to twist what you believe about who you are in Christ.

A discouraged, self-absorbed, sin-centered believer is not going to be chomping at the bit to bring the Lost into the life they're living. A joyful, outward-focused, Christ-centered believer will, though!

-JGIG
 
If you believe that, then you must draw the line somewhere:


  • What's too much sinning? As far as condemnation goes. 1 sin. 1 sin from adam 9eating a peace of fruit) caused all this brokenness the world sees today.



  • Are there some sins that are worse than others? In Gods eyes. No. James said if you break even the least of the commands, you are found guilty of the whole law.



  • What kinds of sinning are going to put you over that 'line" again any sin would cause immediate spiritual death were it not for the grace of God based on his redemptive sacrifice, which paid for those sins.





  • What Scriptures define that line? Romans 3: 23. For all have sinned and FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY (that line) OF GOD



  • Do those Scriptures that you may think of define sins that Jesus did not die for? He died for all sin, but the sin of blaspheming the spirit. reject the spirits word (the gospel) you will never be forgiven, But God is graceful, he gives yoou until you die to make up your mind to recieve or reject, or make your own gospel.



  • Who determines the 'Biblical Standard'? lol God



  • What if the backslidden believer comes to repentance (a change of mind and heart about their behavior) and comes back to Christ? [they will be restored to being able to use his fathers blessings and live a life God wants him to live, But they never stopped being the son of God.



  • Can they do so? Yes, They can also stay away until they die, But imagine what kind of miserable life they will have, worse than the unbeliever, Because they have tasted in reality Gods love, Now they are in total darkness with Gods chastening on top of it



  • If your answer is yes, then the Conditional Security interpretations of Hebrews 6:4-6 and 10:26 cannot both hold water at the same time . . . They don't. They are not even about conditional security, They are about going back to the law. Funny how the LAWyers want to use that to support their belief, when it was written to APPOSE their belief.


Will anyone answer these questions using contextual Scripture?

I contend that the Eternal Security position has contextual Scriptural answers to all of the above questions without contradictions :).

-JGIG

and you would be correct :)
 
UMM That's the wrong question. Because what is at the heart of the matter is when does continued sin cause one to fall into UNBELIEF. How is one declared righteous? We are declared righteous by FAITH. The Bible plainly shows that one is either in BELIEF or UNBELIEF. No one WITHOUT exception can be saved WITHOUT faith.

Does continued sexual sins cause one to fall away from the faith FASTER then smoking? And is that line DIFFERENT for each person when they can no longer be brought back to repentance?

Non of the above.

A true person of faith who comtinues in sexual sin will have a life which is unfathonably miserable. But they will never lose faith in Christ.

I know that, Because I lived it for 5 years. The guilt and the shame were almost overwhelming, I was to the point I was ready to kill myself. That is when God stepped in as he promised, And left the rest of the sheep. Came to where I was. and brought me back home.

Unless youhave lived it. Do not try to speculate what people think!
 
Non of the above.

A true person of faith who comtinues in sexual sin will have a life which is unfathonably miserable. But they will never lose faith in Christ.

I know that, Because I lived it for 5 years. The guilt and the shame were almost overwhelming, I was to the point I was ready to kill myself. That is when God stepped in as he promised, And left the rest of the sheep. Came to where I was. and brought me back home.

Unless youhave lived it. Do not try to speculate what people think!

Do you have any idea where I have been? It would be nice if used the same standard upon yourself.
 
Do you have any idea where I have been? It would be nice if used the same standard upon yourself.

then if you were in that position.

I must ask. why you would think someone would ever lose faith in Christ.
 

then if you were in that position.

I must ask. why you would think someone would ever lose faith in Christ.

From what it sounds like,you have never been in a position where your whole entire world is turned upside down,and God is SILENT. When at that Satan throws including the kitchen sink at you and he starts into your head,"Where's God","Look at you your friends are gone,they didn't so do you think God really loves you?","God's going to make you SUFFER,He loves to make you SUFFER,and I can fix your problem","Look at you,So God says He loves you and you're trying to obey,but look at all those others,God has blessed their socks off and you get is dog poo." And please tell me how easy it is when this goes on for month after month after month till it turns into a year or more. I've been at that edge and I know it would NOT take much to cross that line.
 
Last edited:
From what it sounds like,you have never been in a position where your whole entire world is turned upside down,and God is SILENT.
When it comes to Gods children. God is NEVER SILENT.

He is ALWAYS CHASTENING. You can not chasten and be silent. I know I have been there done that.

If God is silent when that person is living in sin. I would doubt that person is a child of God. Or as Paul says, He is illigitament and not a true child


When at that Satan throws including the kitchen sink at you and he starts into your head,"Where's God","Look at you your friends are gone,they didn't so do you think God really loves you?","God's going to make you SUFFER,He loves to make you SUFFER,and I can fix your problem","Look at you,So God says He loves you and you're trying to obey,but look at all those others,God has blessed their socks off and you get is dog poo." And please tell me how easy it is when this goes on for month after month after month till it turns into a year or more. I've been at that edge and I know it would NOT take much to cross that line.

You think your the first one who has heard this? Satan is a liar. God is never silent. Even if we are suffering, God is there. Do you think God left christ alone when his last disciple by his side (peter) denies him three times? God treats all his children the same.

Can a person lose heart in these times? Yes, And they suffer greatly. But do they stop being Gods children? NO!

Thats what SATAN wants you to think
 
From what it sounds like,you have never been in a position where your whole entire world is turned upside down,and God is SILENT. When at that Satan throws including the kitchen sink at you and he starts into your head,"Where's God","Look at you your friends are gone,they didn't so do you think God really loves you?","God's going to make you SUFFER,He loves to make you SUFFER,and I can fix your problem","Look at you,So God says He loves you and you're trying to obey,but look at all those others,God has blessed their socks off and you get is dog poo." And please tell me how easy it is when this goes on for month after month after month till it turns into a year or more. I've been at that edge and I know it would NOT take much to cross that line.

But you didn't.

And there is a reason for that.

Christ in you, the hope of glory.

And there are times we don't always 'feel' like we're hearing God; that does not mean He is not there. We always have the Word to turn to.

And there are seasons in this life that we all go through.

Sarah, it's not so much 'trying to obey', but resting in Christ and letting Him produce His Fruit through you. It's about bearing Fruit, not about producing obedience. His results are superior to what we can eek out, trust me =o).

Grace and peace to you, sister.

-JGIG
 
  • Like
Reactions: eternally-gratefull
Then you and every other person who has ever lived except Christ is doomed. There is NO Scripture to back up what you say.

To believe what you say, one has to believe that ANY sin is more powerful than the Blood of Christ.

That is not Good News; it is not the Gospel.

17711_10151344471439001_177909063_n.png





There's no Scripture to back up the concept of 'getting back in God's good graces'. You are either a forgiven person or you are not. and once you have received the free gift of forgiveness, ALL of your sins, past, present, and future, have been cast as far as the East is from the West. You may be holding your sins against yourself, but God is not (see 2 Cor. 5:16-21, Gal. 2:18).


  • What has to happen for there to be further forgiveness for sins (if it were necessary, which it is not)?
  • Blood would have to be shed.
  • Whose Blood?
  • Christ's!
  • Did He already do that work, on the Cross?
  • Yes.
  • Is He doming back to do it again?
  • No!
  • Why not?
  • Because once was enough! (see Hebrews 10)


Why do you insist on dragging Christ back to the Cross as if His Work is not more significant than your sinning?

His Work was more than sufficient to be the propitiation for not only ALL of your sins, but also for ALL of the sins of the WHOLE world! (1 Jn. 2:2)



Conditional Security contradicts the whole of the message of the letter to the Hebrews. Hebrews is all about how the New Covenant is a better Covenant that is built on better promises than the Old. Repeated confession and repentance - the way you describe it - is reducing the New Covenant down to Old Covenant practice minus animal sacrifices. What you're doing is WORSE - putting the Blood of the New Covenant to shame by saying that ANY sin is more powerful than the Blood of Christ.

Conditional Security folks will usually use Hebrews 10:26 to say that too much sinning, and look out, you'll lose your salvation - you better 'get right' with God and fly straight, while preaching that in Hebrews 6 it teaches that once you've tasted the goodness of God, if you fall away, too bad, so sad, there is no coming back to repentance. There is no hope in that message - it is not Good News, and by definition, not the Gospel.

The repeated sinning spoken of in Hebrews 10:26 is the repeated sin of unbelief - that is an unsaved person. Once one receives Christ and His righteousness, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit, guaranteeing them for the day of redemption (Romans 5, Ephesians 1).

Hebrews 6, when it talks about how it's impossible to return to repentance, is speaking of the repentance unto salvation. Once sealed with the Holy Spirit, He GUARANTEES you - delivers you allllllll the way to the day of Redemption. It's impossible to drift in and out of a state of forgiveness - it's impossible to be brought BACK to salvation because you cannot be UNsaved once saved - because you ARE SO SECURE in Christ's Hand, it's IMPOSSIBLE to be brought back to repentance unto salvation.

Does that mean we never repent as Christians? No. Repentance is a change of mind and heart (a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done as G3341 - metanoia, the Greek word for repentance). As believers, we change our minds and hearts as we grow and mature in Christ to line up more an more with what He says about us and who we are in Christ. As what we believe lines up more and more with what God says, our behavior changes to more and more reflect the Character of Christ. It's about the renewal of the mind (Romans 12:1-2) and the bearing of the Fruit of the Holy Spirit as we learn to be led by Him (Galatians 5).

What you are advocating is a return to Old Covenant practices - that is putting yourself under your own constructed version of law (repent, confess, rinse and repeat ad nauseam, not recognizing the Finished Work of Christ able to save you COMPLETELY), and if you are under law, you are not led by the Spirit, and not bearing His Fruit.

You're out here telling people that ANY sin they commit is more powerful than the Blood of Christ.

Scripture tells people that if they are in Christ, they are the very Righteousness of God in Christ, and God is no longer holding their sins, ANY of their sins, against them (Romans 5, 2 Corinthians 5).

I'm goin' with what Scripture says!

-JGIG

Amen and true as well as the fact that If the blood and faith OF Christ is not good enough to secure our salvation he is not much of a God!....Of course I believe that he is God and his (once for all sacrifice) was sufficient to not only save me, but keep me saved!
 
Amen and true as well as the fact that If the blood and faith OF Christ is not good enough to secure our salvation he is not much of a God!....Of course I believe that he is God and his (once for all sacrifice) was sufficient to not only save me, but keep me saved!

AMen

Philippians 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus
Christ;


We can not be confident of this if we think for any reason God will not finish it, and we may end up lost with no hope;
 


When it comes to Gods children. God is NEVER SILENT.

He is ALWAYS CHASTENING. You can not chasten and be silent. I know I have been there done that.

If God is silent when that person is living in sin. I would doubt that person is a child of God. Or as Paul says, He is illigitament and not a true child




You think your the first one who has heard this? Satan is a liar. God is never silent. Even if we are suffering, God is there. Do you think God left christ alone when his last disciple by his side (peter) denies him three times? God treats all his children the same.

Can a person lose heart in these times? Yes, And they suffer greatly. But do they stop being Gods children? NO!

Thats what SATAN wants you to think


On the first part tell that to Job. Two Job was NOT being chastised,Job was BEING tested.

I did NOT say I was the FIRST one to hear it. (I am beginning to wonder if you actually read what is being posted or if you just skim it and put your own spin on it)

At that point no. It's when one crosses that LINE.
 
But you didn't.

And there is a reason for that.

Christ in you, the hope of glory.

And there are times we don't always 'feel' like we're hearing God; that does not mean He is not there. We always have the Word to turn to.

And there are seasons in this life that we all go through.

Sarah, it's not so much 'trying to obey', but resting in Christ and letting Him produce His Fruit through you. It's about bearing Fruit, not about producing obedience. His results are superior to what we can eek out, trust me =o).

Grace and peace to you, sister.

-JGIG

That's because He placed one truth that I KNOW is fact. Jesus rose from the dead on the third day.
 
That's because He placed one truth that I KNOW is fact. Jesus rose from the dead on the third day.

And since he rose from the dead. If you have been born again, You have this promise.


Rom 6 : 8 - 11 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If we are born again We have a hope that can not be taken away. We WILL live with Christ. Nothing can change that!
 
On the first part tell that to Job. Two Job was NOT being chastised,Job was BEING tested.


Part of discipline is testing. Not all disciplin is for sin. it is also to teach.and test.
Job did hear God. God never left him, He questioned God, But we are allowed. that is different than no longer believing in him. Job never stopped believing


I did NOT say I was the FIRST one to hear it. (I am beginning to wonder if you actually read what is being posted or if you just skim it and put your own spin on it)

At that point no. It's when one crosses that LINE.

1. I was just asking you a question. not stating you were the first one to hear it.
2. I read it all.
3. Crosses what Line? We ALL have crossed the line and deserve death. If we were saved when we were at our worse. How can we ever get to the point we are below that (we can't) , and all of a sudden no longer have it??