Repentance Vs Eternal Security

[SeaBass]

I would not call repenting a "work". Repenting is changing one's mind - realizing that they need Christ and turning to him.



Why would I repent if I had nothing to place my faith in? Why would I repent if I didn't have faith?

The only "work" I have to do, if you want to call it a work is to believe on the only begotten Son.

Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

To me it's a privilege - not what I would consider "work".

Repentance is a work, it's not just a change in mind but in action.

Acts 26:20 "But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance."


In Matt 12:41, Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees and said "The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here."

If we turn to Jonah 3 where Nineveh repented we find in verse 10 "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

Repentance is called a work, a work that God saw.

If you put salvation BEFORE the work of repentance, then you are implying the impenitent can be saved in his unrepented/unforgiven sin. Lk 13:3,5 Jsus said repent or perish. The implication is one will perish/not be sved unldess he repents making salvation conditional upon repenting. In Acts 2:38 Peter commanded repentance and the order of the verse has repentance and baptism BEFORE remission of sins(salvation). When they asked Peter what shall we do, Peter did not say "your saved by faith only, now go repent and be baptized".




I agree that belief is a work, Jn 6:27-29. The people aksed Jesus "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?"

The peole asked what work THEY were to do. Jesus did NOT answer "do no works lest you try to merit your savlation" Instead Jeus gave them the work of belief.

Jsus told them to "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed"


Jesus clearly told them to LABOUR - WORK - WORK - WORK for everlasting life which He shall GIVE.

NOtice everlasting life is given, IT'S FREE yet Jesus told them to WORK for it. Obviously the WORK earns NOTHING but is a necessary CONDITION attached to the free gift. Why can't the faith only word nderstand this simple concept?

Lastly, you said "The only "work" I have to do, if you want to call it a work is to believe.."

So belief is a work. Belief saves, Jn 3:16 just as repenting saves, Lk 13:3,5 and confession saved, Mt 10:32,33 and baptism saves, Mk 16:16.


We have:


belief>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
repentance>>>>>>>>>>saves
confession>>>>>>>>>>saves
baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>saves


Since there is just ONE way to be saved, no alternatives and the bible does not contradict itself, then the logical implication is that a saving belief INCLUDES the works of repentance, confession and submitting to water baptism.

 

[SeaBass]

Water baptism - or "ceremonial washings" were throughout the OT. I don't know why you mentioned water baptism. I said that Judas was never filled with the Holy Spirit - the holy Spirit was not available until Jesus Christ ascension. None of the disciples were filled with the holy Spirit - only baptized unto John's baptism. They had holy Spirit upon them but the "out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water", i.e. holy Spirit, was not yet given (John 7:39).

You made reference to Judas not being "born again". Jn 3:5 Jesus speaks of thes new birth and this new birth is water baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins which is Jesus' baptism of the great commission (Mt 28:19,20; Mk 16:15,16) that took effect in Acts 2 at Pentecost AFTER Judas died.

In Matthew 10 Judas had power of the HS to enable him to perform miracles and speak/preach inspirationally.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Repentance is a work, it's not just a change in mind but in action.

Acts 26:20 "But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance."


In Matt 12:41, Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees and said "The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here."

If we turn to Jonah 3 where Nineveh repented we find in verse 10 "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

Repentance is called a work, a work that God saw.

If you put salvation BEFORE the work of repentance, then you are implying the impenitent can be saved in his unrepented/unforgiven sin. Lk 13:3,5 Jsus said repent or perish. The implication is one will perish/not be sved unldess he repents making salvation conditional upon repenting. In Acts 2:38 Peter commanded repentance and the order of the verse has repentance and baptism BEFORE remission of sins(salvation). When they asked Peter what shall we do, Peter did not say "your saved by faith only, now go repent and be baptized".




I agree that belief is a work, Jn 6:27-29. The people aksed Jesus "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?"

The peole asked what work THEY were to do. Jesus did NOT answer "do no works lest you try to merit your savlation" Instead Jeus gave them the work of belief.

Jsus told them to "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed"


Jesus clearly told them to LABOUR - WORK - WORK - WORK for everlasting life which He shall GIVE.

NOtice everlasting life is given, IT'S FREE yet Jesus told them to WORK for it. Obviously the WORK earns NOTHING but is a necessary CONDITION attached to the free gift. Why can't the faith only word nderstand this simple concept?

Lastly, you said "The only "work" I have to do, if you want to call it a work is to believe.."

So belief is a work. Belief saves, Jn 3:16 just as repenting saves, Lk 13:3,5 and confession saved, Mt 10:32,33 and baptism saves, Mk 16:16.


We have:


belief>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
repentance>>>>>>>>>>saves
confession>>>>>>>>>>saves
baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>saves


Since there is just ONE way to be saved, no alternatives and the bible does not contradict itself, then the logical implication is that a saving belief INCLUDES the works of repentance, confession and submitting to water baptism.

Okay. You go ahead and WORK for your salvation - I'll stick to having faith in Christ.

I never said we didn't have to repent but I have to believe in something in order to repent else who am I repenting to?

For by grace are ye saved by grace through faith: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. . . simple

 

[SeaBass]

1 Corinthians 15

New King James Version (NKJV)

The Risen Christ, Faith’s Reality

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

In other words, not everyone's conversion is genuine. Some people may set their eyes on the master's goods, and not the master Himself.

Paul worte 1 Corinthain epistle "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints,"

So Paul was writing to Christians in the church, those sanctified in Christ, Saints and warning them they could fall away if they do not hold fast to his gospel words. If those Corinthians did fall away that in no way proves they were NEVER in the church of God, NEVER sanctified in CHrist, NEVER Saints.

 

[SeaBass]

Why do so many make repentance a sole issue of turning and abstaining from sin? First, it is the goodness of God through the conviction of the Spirit that leads us to repentance in the first place. That conviction takes us to the cross where our sins were paid for and put away by Jesus Christ. It opens the eyes of our understanding so that we can see that we have sinned and that our sin has separated us from God who loves us. The sin we have is not the righteousness of God and our own righteousness that we have trusted in falls short and is nothing more than filthy rags. This conviction draws us to the One who did a work on our behalf that we might be forgiven and cleansed and be able to receive God's righteousness by faith through believing upon His Son.

When we believe and trust in Christ, we are turning from ourselves and everything we trusted in and we lean, trust and believe in the righteousness of God. We turn from sin (or self) through the goodness of God and receive eternal redemption that was obtained for us through the finished work of Jesus Christ crucified. Salvation we receive by grace through faith is not based upon our repentance of sin but upon the cross that put away our sin so that we could trust in the righteousness of God by faith. To repent and believe is to turn from self unto God and believe upon the one whom God sent to take away our sins. When we believe, we are instantly made clean and righteous and we are put in right standing with God all through faith in what Christ for us and not in our repentance. Our repentance is when we change our mind about who we are in Adam (the old man) and agree with God that Adam was crucified along with the sin of Adam.

When we believe we become new creatures in Christ, old things passed away and all things become new because we have been accepted and placed IN CHRIST, the second Adam (the new man). In Christ we are justified, sanctified, imputed with God's righteousness and sealed by the eternal Spirit until the redemption of our bodies. No man, not even God can or will break that eternal seal nor will we ever be rejected or forsaken by the One who has redeemed us with His own precious blood.

Christians that refuse to repent of thier sins break that seal. In Rev 2, the church at Ephesus, that was sealed in EPh 1:13, was comanded to repent or else have their church removed, God would no longer acknowlesge them, recognize them as His church.

 

[SeaBass]

Okay. You go ahead and WORK for your salvation - I'll stick to having faith in Christ.

I never said we didn't have to repent but I have to believe in something in order to repent else who am I repenting to?

For by grace are ye saved by grace through faith: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. . . simple

You do not seem to understand the implications of this.

If you claim one does not have to do works as repentance, confession and submitting to water baptism to be saved, then you are implying the impenitent, the denier of Christ ,the one in his unremitted/unforgiven sins can be saved which is NOT POSSIBLE.

As I already posted, in Jn 6:27 Jesus Himself said to WORK FOR EVERLASTING LIFE
Jesus NEVER said DO NOTHING for everlasting life.


inJn 6:27-29 Jesus called belief a work. So when Paul said "not of works" that excludes the work of believing? No.

Paul was excluding works of merit not obedience in believing

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sorry EG,

But it DOES not appear that you are even reading what I am saying. When one is given a measure of faith whose work is it? The faith does not come from us does it? Repentance and belief COME out of the measure of faith that God gave us. The Bible plainly tells us WITHOUT faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. How can one even REPENT and have it pleasing to God WITHOUT FAITH? Faith is the work of God.

so then why are you arguing?

you just proved that what I have been saying is right.

God did the heavy lifting. All you did was trust him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You fail to explain:

How can they become AGAIN entangled if they were ALWAYS entangled?

How could they TURN from the way of righteousness and holy commandment delivered unto them if they NEVER had or NEVER known the way of righteousness or the holy commandment?

How could the sow be washed if it was NEVER washed and ALWAYS wallowing in the mire?

lol..

No I did explain, you did not understand.

can you teach a dog a new trick? yes. Can he act different?? yes.

But a dog will always be a dog.

anyone who walks with a bunch of believers tasts the work of God and tastes the things you speak of

it does not mean they ever recieved it in faith and were saved.

 

[notuptome]

You do not seem to understand the implications of this.

If you claim one does not have to do works as repentance, confession and submitting to water baptism to be saved, then you are implying the impenitent, the denier of Christ ,the one in his unremitted/unforgiven sins can be saved which is NOT POSSIBLE.

As I already posted, in Jn 6:27 Jesus Himself said to WORK FOR EVERLASTING LIFE
Jesus NEVER said DO NOTHING for everlasting life.


inJn 6:27-29 Jesus called belief a work. So when Paul said "not of works" that excludes the work of believing? No.

Paul was excluding works of merit not obedience in believing

Jesus said many times that salvation was a gift from God. Jesus never said that salvation could be merited by anything man could or not do.

David said that blessed is the man to whom God doth not impute iniquity. David knew that Gods forgiveness could not be earned.

The writer in Hebrews says of how much sorer punishment do you think one is entitled to who treads under foot the blood of Christ accounting to be of no greater worth than the blood of calves and goats.

The theology you espouse reeks of self righteousness.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[RedTent]

so then why are you arguing?

you just proved that what I have been saying is right.

God did the heavy lifting. All you did was trust him.

That is the problem! You base what you say on scripture, always, except by adding to it with your own mind it is twisted just enough not to be right. You cannot know all that is other's minds, yet often you make statements that you do. You cannot say scripture means something that is not written there, it is wrong to conclude a meaning not given by scripture. We must not have such confidence in our own minds, but have a questing humble mind that listens to scripture without jumping to conclusions of our own making. That is for college professors, we are asked to be as little children.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That is the problem! You base what you say on scripture, always, except by adding to it with your own mind it is twisted just enough not to be right. You cannot know all that is other's minds, yet often you make statements that you do. You cannot say scripture means something that is not written there, it is wrong to conclude a meaning not given by scripture. We must not have such confidence in our own minds, but have a questing humble mind that listens to scripture without jumping to conclusions of our own making. That is for college professors, we are asked to be as little children.

how am I adding to the word of God?

is it the power of God who saves us or not??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That is the problem! You base what you say on scripture, always, except by adding to it with your own mind it is twisted just enough not to be right. You cannot know all that is other's minds, yet often you make statements that you do. You cannot say scripture means something that is not written there, it is wrong to conclude a meaning not given by scripture. We must not have such confidence in our own minds, but have a questing humble mind that listens to scripture without jumping to conclusions of our own making. That is for college professors, we are asked to be as little children.

and I want to add.

NO ONE I KNOW believes we just say a prayer and live however we want, and we will be saved. That is a lie taught by the church to keep people from believing we are saved by faith alone through grace alone by the work of God alone. period.

so when we see the words (God did the heavy lifting) No One I have ever met would think it is ok to go on sinning, just because God did all the work.

But when ANYONE says they can lose salvation. or that God did some work yes, but we have to do our part. That is legalism, because your focus is on self. and what you do or do not do. And not on God.

My focus is on God. He works to save me, he works to change me, And he made this promise.

He who begun a good work in me WILL CONTINUE it until the day of Christ.

I trust him completely to do this work. Why do so many people not trust him when he says this??

 

[cfultz3]

That is simply NOT the case with Judas.

Lk 6:13-16 Judas was as much a believing disciple as the other 11 that were chosen.

In Matthew chapter 10, in what some call the "limited commission" that Jesus gave to His apostles, everything said in that chapter is said about ALL the apostles including Judas. For example in verse 40 it was said to Judas "He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me." So receiving Judas the apostle was the sme as receiving Christ and God who sent Christ. Verse 19,20 Judas had the Holy SPirit in him enabling Judas to preach inspirationally.

Lastly we are told in Acts 1 that Judas fell by transgression. What did he fall from? If he was "always a sinner" then he was "always fallen". An already fallen person cannot fall. Judas therefore MUST have been in a saved position as an apostle where his transgressions were being forvgiven and yet fell from that saved position.

John 6:70-71

Jesus answering them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you IS (be verb) a devil (present tense)
He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for it was he that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

This was well before his betrayal and was shortly after being chosen by Jesus.....He was lost from the beginning, never was saved and died lost when he committed suicide.....

Both of you are right. But, how can you both be right?

Jesus sent the twelve and said that the one who receives them is the same as also receiving Him and the One who sent Him, and that includes Judas.

But, we also have Jesus saying that one of them is a DEVIL, indicating Judas.

How to harmonize these seemingly contradictive verses?

We see from John 6:71 that Judas should betray Jesus, the one He trusted, His friend Psa 41:9.

It seems that God's omniscient was in play when Jesus said that Judas IS a devil (false accuser, slanderer), seeing that it was pre-mentioned by God in Psa 41:9.

Judas, although taken away from him, did have the office of Bishop (Act 1:20), was part of Jesus' ministry and apostleship (Acts 1:25). But, nevertheless, Judas fell by transgression (Acts 1:25). This word (fell by transgression) G3845 means, 'to violate, to depart from' and is also used in Mat 15:2-3 and 2Jh 1:9, from where we understand it to mean, 'to abandon'.

It would seem to me, since we are accountable for our own deeds, that Judas abandoned his Christ given post on his own and God, in His eternity of time, knew beforehand that he would betray Jesus in the end. And Jesus, the Word incarnated in His eternity of time, also knew Judas is (present indicative) a traitor.

IMO......

 

[SeaBass]

Both of you are right. But, how can you both be right?

Jesus sent the twelve and said that the one who receives them is the same as also receiving Him and the One who sent Him, and that includes Judas.

But, we also have Jesus saying that one of them is a DEVIL, indicating Judas.

How to harmonize these seemingly contradictive verses?

We see from John 6:71 that Judas should betray Jesus, the one He trusted, His friend Psa 41:9.

It seems that God's omniscient was in play when Jesus said that Judas IS a devil (false accuser, slanderer), seeing that it was pre-mentioned by God in Psa 41:9.

Judas, although taken away from him, did have the office of Bishop (Act 1:20), was part of Jesus' ministry and apostleship (Acts 1:25). But, nevertheless, Judas fell by transgression (Acts 1:25). This word (fell by transgression) G3845 means, 'to violate, to depart from' and is also used in Mat 15:2-3 and 2Jh 1:9, from where we understand it to mean, 'to abandon'.

It would seem to me, since we are accountable for our own deeds, that Judas abandoned his Christ given post on his own and God, in His eternity of time, knew beforehand that he would betray Jesus in the end. And Jesus, the Word incarnated in His eternity of time, also knew Judas is (present indicative) a traitor.

IMO......

Jesus in Jn 6 did NOT say Judas is a devil always, that idea is what is being ASSUMED into the verse.

As Sarah pointed out many times, a good lenght of time passed between when Jesus chose Judas as an apostle and the time John wrote Jn 6. It was during that time peroid Judas went from being a believer, a disciple of Christ and BECAME the devilish person he had become by the time Jn 6 was written.

I agree with you that God foreknew what Judas would do. And God used that foreknowledge of what Judas would do to accomplish His own will in Christ dying for the sins of mankind. So "is" could be a prophetic tense as to what was about to happen in the near future.

 

[SeaBass]

lol..

No I did explain, you did not understand.

can you teach a dog a new trick? yes. Can he act different?? yes.

But a dog will always be a dog.

anyone who walks with a bunch of believers tasts the work of God and tastes the things you speak of

it does not mean they ever recieved it in faith and were saved.

This does not explain how one who has ALWAYS been entangled in the sin can again become entangled in sin. It logically imples one left that entanglement only to later return to it.

How could they TURN from the way of righteousness and holy commandment delivered unto them if they NEVER had or NEVER known the way of righteousness or the holy commandment?

This logically implies one was IN THE WAY OF RIGHTREOUSNESS in order for him to turn from it.

Heb 2:9 "....he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

Jesus just "tasted" death. So according to you he did not really die just "appeared" to have died.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This does not explain how one who has ALWAYS been entangled in the sin can again become entangled in sin. It logically imples one left that entanglement only to later return to it.

How could they TURN from the way of righteousness and holy commandment delivered unto them if they NEVER had or NEVER known the way of righteousness or the holy commandment?

This logically implies one was IN THE WAY OF RIGHTREOUSNESS in order for him to turn from it.

Heb 2:9 "....he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

Jesus just "tasted" death. So according to you he did not really die just "appeared" to have died.

rolling eyes!

You are the dog. You will return to your vomit, because you deny the one who offers to make you a new creature in him.

I will not return to my vomit, Because I am no longer a Dog. He created me a new creature. In Christ Jesus.

Have fun when you start eating your vomit again, I pray you open your eyes, and You allow God to make you a new creature, so your no longer a dog!

 

[cfultz3]

Jesus in Jn 6 did NOT say Judas is a devil always, that idea is what is being ASSUMED into the verse.

As Sarah pointed out many times, a good lenght of time passed between when Jesus chose Judas as an apostle and the time John wrote Jn 6. It was during that time peroid Judas went from being a believer, a disciple of Christ and BECAME the devilish person he had become by the time Jn 6 was written.

I agree with you that God foreknew what Judas would do[/COLOR]. And God used that foreknowledge of what Judas would do to accomplish His own will in Christ dying for the sins of mankind. So "is" could be a prophetic tense as to what was about to happen in the near future.

I believe it was a prophecy, seeing it was foretold in Psa 41:9.

Take the following into account:

Psa 31:13 For I have heard the slander of many: fear was on every side: while they took counsel together against me, they devised to take away my life.​

Now, Jesus called Judas 'a devil'. We understand 'devil' to mean 'slanderer, false accuser'. We see from Psa 31:13 and John 6:71, that Judas was indeed a devil/a slanderer.

Now consider, if he was 'always' a devil/slanderer then he would had been Satan himself. But, no wheres were we told that Judas was Satan. But, we are told in Psa 41:9 that Judas was a friend and was trusted by Jesus, unlike Satan who was not a friend of Jesus, nor was trust by Jesus.

 

[SeaBass]

rolling eyes!

You are the dog. You will return to your vomit, because you deny the one who offers to make you a new creature in him.

I will not return to my vomit, Because I am no longer a Dog. He created me a new creature. In Christ Jesus.

Have fun when you start eating your vomit again, I pray you open your eyes, and You allow God to make you a new creature, so your no longer a dog!

Let me break it down to one point:

"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein"


If one was ALWAYS lost, ALWAYS entangled in sin, then how can they become AGAIN entangled in what they were ALWAYS entangled in?


The "AGAIN" implies they must have escaped that entanglement of sin (SAVED) but became entangled AGAIN.

Just as the father said of his prodigal son...."this my son was dead, and is alive again"


To be spiritually alive AGAIN logically implies he was spiritually alive BEFORE. So he went from being spiritually alive, to spiritually dead to spirtually alive AGAIN.

 

[dcontroversal]

and I want to add.

NO ONE I KNOW believes we just say a prayer and live however we want, and we will be saved. That is a lie taught by the church to keep people from believing we are saved by faith alone through grace alone by the work of God alone. period.

so when we see the words (God did the heavy lifting) No One I have ever met would think it is ok to go on sinning, just because God did all the work.

But when ANYONE says they can lose salvation. or that God did some work yes, but we have to do our part. That is legalism, because your focus is on self. and what you do or do not do. And not on God.

My focus is on God. He works to save me, he works to change me, And he made this promise.

He who begun a good work in me WILL CONTINUE it until the day of Christ.

I trust him completely to do this work. Why do so many people not trust him when he says this??

Because we live in a world where people have to work, cheat of steal for everything that they will get (most) and it makes sense to them that they should have to base their own salvation upon their own works, but God has made foolish the wisdom of the world....God did the work, it was finished in his eyes before the casting down of the world and if Jesus alone can't save me then He is not much of a God!......Of course I believe that He is God and can save me to the uttermost!

 

[peacefulbeliever]

You made reference to Judas not being "born again". Jn 3:5 Jesus speaks of thes new birth and this new birth is water baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins which is Jesus' baptism of the great commission (Mt 28:19,20; Mk 16:15,16) that took effect in Acts 2 at Pentecost AFTER Judas died.

In Matthew 10 Judas had power of the HS to enable him to perform miracles and speak/preach inspirationally.

Judas was saved not born again. He had holy Spirit upon him to perform the works. Actually, scripture never says specifically that Judas performed any miracles nor preach. You are assuming that since it is not written.

The new birth is being born again of the Spirit. The new birth is being baptized by Jesus Christ with holy Spirit (Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the holy Spirit not many days hence) and Judas was not born again of the Spirit - filled with the Spirit - it was not yet available - John 7:38,39 He that believeth on me as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Spirit was not yet given because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Acts 2:38 . . . Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of holy Spirit. Judas was gone before this . . . so he had not received the gift of holy Spirit nor was he born again of the Spirit.