Churches of Christ with or without instruments, which is the right way to worship?

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posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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You do not have to be good with your hands to play a piano, guitar, harp??? If playing an instrument is an artistic gift,then making idols out of gold or silver is a artistic gift as well.

Let every skillful craftsman among you come and make all that the Lord has commanded
(Exodus 35:10)

Then Moses said to the people of Israel,
“See, the Lord has called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah; and he has filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, with intelligence, with knowledge, and with all craftsmanship, to devise artistic designs, to work in gold and silver and bronze, in cutting stones for setting, and in carving wood, for work in every skilled craft. And he has inspired him to teach, both him and Oholiab the son of Ahisamach of the tribe of Dan.
He has filled them with skill to do every sort of work done by an engraver or by a designer or by an embroiderer in blue and purple and scarlet yarns and fine twined linen, or by a weaver—by any sort of workman or skilled designer."

(Exodus 35:30-35)


seems to me that the Lord God has a use for the talents He's given to people.
am sure Satan has some alternate plan for you, or you could bury it in the sand. but i think that Jesus said something about burying talents in the sand, on the other hand, didn't He?
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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The probelm is men do not want God's word to be the only and final authority on how NT worship is to be, that is why you have 1000's religious groups that all contradict each other yet all are somehow biblically correct wallowing in those man-made contradictions.
maybe the solution is to not add commands and laws and traditions to the Word of God that just aren't there?
 
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I am so sorry for people who missed that course on Acts.7.101a! God made Israel Blind and deaf because of musical idolatry of the Egyptian trinity at Mount Sinai. The Law of Moses was ADDED because of transgression which was vocal and instrumental rejoicing when the REST day in Exodus 31 PROHIBITED and vocal or instrumental discord. They would not be able to read BLACK text on BROWN paper until they turned, were converted or baptized INTO Christ. The mark of that new spirit is that they can hear Paul say that THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT.

Acts 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel,
.....A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up [Suscito resurrect
.....unto you of your brethren,
.....like unto me; him shall ye hear.
Acts 7:38 This is he, that was
.....in the church in the wilderness
.....with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers:
.....who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

This was The Book of The Covenant of Grace: it's laws were conditional.

Acts 7:39 To whom our fathers would not obey,
.....but thrust him from them,
.....and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,
Acts 7:40 Saying unto Aaron,
.....Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses,
.....which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

Acts 7:41 And they made a calf in those days,
.....and offered sacrifice unto the idol,
.....and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.

Euphrainō , Ep. euphr-, fut. Att.155.12, Pi.I.7(6).3 II. Pass., make merry, enjoy oneself,

Pind. I. 6
Just as we mix the second bowl of wine when the men's symposium is flourishing, here is the second song of the Muses for Lampon's children and their athletic victories: first in Nemea, Zeus, in your honor they received the choicest of garlands,

Aristoph. Ach. 5 I was in ecstasy and I love the Knights for this deed; ‘it is an honour to Greece.’ But the day when I was impatiently awaiting a piece by Aeschylus, what tragic despair it caused me when the herald called, “Theognis, introduce your Chorus!” Just imagine how this blow struck straight at my heart!

Xen. Sym. 7.5 However, these questions also fail to promote the same object that wine does; but if the young people were to have a flute accompaniment and dance figures depicting the Graces, the Horae, and the Nymphs, I believe that they would be far less wearied themselves and that the charms of the banquet would be greatly enhanced.” “Upon my word, Socrates,” replied the Syracusan, “you are quite right; and I will bring in a spectacle that will delight you.”
Or, the Seasons. Or it may be used here in the Homeric sense of the maidens who kept the cloud gate of Heaven.

Acts 7:42 Then God turned,
.....and gave them up to worship the host of heaven;
.....as it is written in the book of the prophets,
.....O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices
.....by the space of forty years in the wilderness?

Acts 7:43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch,
.....and the star of your god Remphan,
.....figures which ye made to worship them:
.....and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.

Both Amos, lots of Old Testament and Acts 7 gives us the NAMES of the starry host even when they called THEM Jehovah. There is no music in the Law of Moses and the Prophets by Christ prohibit even "seeking your own pleasure or speaking your own words." That would certainly outlaw SINGING your own words when Paul commanded that we SPEAK which is opposite to ODE which is in the heart or silent.
 
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I simply add notes for your consideration: I find that songs and sermons do not satisfy the quest to know what did they know and when did they know. I have no further need to make any of into a creed. If you keep on being a Disciple you might escape Alzheimer's. Life is a lot richer and you can engage in time and space travel: I begin by posting clay tablets (by permission) which told the Babylonian side of life before Moses corrected it.

The Jewish Encyclopedia accepts the fact that the Jews under the Monarchy were devoted to Sabazianism or the worship of the creatures instead of the Creator. The Sun, Moon and known planets had their "god" which was worshipped. I don't need for you to accept these notes:

Molech . . . Chiun--"Molech" means "king" answering to Mars [BENGEL]; the Sun [JABLONSKI]; Saturn, the same as "Chiun" [MAURER]. The Septuagint translates "Chiun" into Remphan, as Stephen quotes it (Ac 7:42,43). The same god often had different names.
Molech is the Ammonite name; Chiun, the Arabic and Persian name, written also Chevan. In an Arabic lexicon Chiun means "austere"; so astrologers represented Saturn as a planet baleful in his influence. Hence the Phoenicians offered human sacrifices to him, children especially; so idolatrous Israel also. Rimmon was the Syrian name (2Ki 5:18); pronounced as Remvan, or "Remphan," just as Chiun was also Chevan. Molech had the form of a king; Chevan, or Chiun, of a star [GROTIUS]. Remphan was the Egyptian name for Saturn: hence the Septuagint translator of Amos gave the Egyptian name for the Hebrew, being an Egyptian. [HODIUS II, De Bibliorum Textibus Originalibus. 4.115].

The Hebrews became infected with Sabeanism, the oldest form of idolatry, the worship of the Saba or starry hosts, in their stay in the Arabian desert, where Job notices its prevalence (Job 31:26); in opposition, in Am 5:27, Jehovah declares Himself "the God of hosts."
the star of your god--R. ISAAC CARO says all the astrologers represented Saturn as the star of Israel. Probably there was a figure of a star on the head of the image of the idol, to represent the planet Saturn; hence "images" correspond to "star" in the parallel clause. A star in hieroglyphics represents God (Nu 24:17). "Images" are either a Hebraism for "image," or refer to the many images made to represent Chiun.

The Star of David was originally the secret symbol of the stargazing priests [Gad was a stargazer], later adopted by the Israelite Kings David and Solomon and subsequently by the Hebrew people as a whole.
27. beyond Damascus--In Ac 7:43 it is "beyond Babylon," which includes beyond Damascus. In Amos time, Damascus was the object of Israel's fear because of the Syrian wars [doesn't history repeat itself and it will get worse]. Babylon was not yet named as the place of their captivity.
Stephen supplies this name. Their place of exile was in fact, as he states, "beyond Babylon," in Halah and Habor by the river Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes (2Ki 17:6; compare here Am 1:5 4:3 6:14). The road to Assyria lay through "Damascus." It is therefore specified, that not merely shall they be carried captives to Damascus, as they had been by Syrian kings (2Ki 10:32,33 13:7),
but, beyond that, to a region whence a return was not so possible as from Damascus.
They were
led captive by Satan into idolatry, therefore God caused them to go captive among idolaters. Compare 2Ki 15:29 16:9 Isa 8:4, whence it appears Tiglath-pileser attacked Israel and Damascus at the same time at Ahaz' request (
Am 3:1)


 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Acts 7:41 And they made a calf in those days,
.....and offered sacrifice unto the idol,
.....and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.

Euphrainō , Ep. euphr-, fut. Att.155.12, Pi.I.7(6).3 II. Pass., make merry, enjoy oneself

other places where this same word εὐφραίνω is used in the new testament:

Luke 12:19
And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years;
take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.

Luke 15:23
And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it;
and let us eat, and be merry:

Luke 15:24
For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.
And they began to be merry.

Luke 15:29
And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment:
and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:

Luke 15:32
It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad:
for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Luke 16:19
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen,
and fared sumptuously every day:

Acts 2:26
Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad;
moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

Romans 15:10
And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
2 Corinthians 2:2
For if I make you sorry, who is he then that maketh me glad, but the same which is made sorry by me?
Galatians 4:27
For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not;
break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Revelation 11:10
And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Revelation 18:20
Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

the problem isn't that the Israelites were rejoicing at Sinai. they ought to have been. God had just made a covenant with them to be His people!
the problem was in their heart.
the problem, just as those wicked men Isaiah spoke of, is that they "
rejoiced in the work of their own hands" instead of over God. it's not music that infuriated the Lord. it's idolatry.


why give away your joy?

it's written "the joy of the Lord is my strength"
 
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phillip1980

Guest
Leviticus 10: 1-2
And Na-dab and A-bi-hu, the sons of Aa-ron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered STRANGE fire before the Lord, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord.

I would be very careful about the instruments I used to worship the Lord. If you aren't sure it's OK then don't do it.
 
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I forgot which ones of those passages relate to the Ekklesia-Synagogue which is that short time when we claim to listen to Christ? Jesus invites us to PAUO (rest just like sabbath) and "learn of me."
 
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gusstanthony

Guest
My feeling is that religious systems are evolving just as spiritual sensitivity on this planet is evolving. Religious systems for worship move forward, regardless of denomination, to keep in step with the times. Let's face it. Christianity was a totally different thing in the first century ... focused on immediate eschatology, a few hundred years later, it changed completely during the Dark Ages of Europe, then the Renaissance changed the character of religion into something completely different once again. On and on. At the end of the day, the religious systems that are successful are the ones that satisfy the peoples' spiritual needs.

Many denominations today incorporate music as part of the worship experience. As far as I have witnessed personally, every ceremony that has incorporated music has been about praise and celebration. Never about condemnation. To my way of thinking that is a good thing.
 
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Leviticus 10: 1-2
And Na-dab and A-bi-hu, the sons of Aa-ron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered STRANGE fire before the Lord, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord.

I would be very careful about the instruments I used to worship the Lord. If you aren't sure it's OK then don't do it.
Nadab and Abihu went into the place of the Incense Altar: God commanded that any Jacob-Cursed and God-Abandoned Levite be executed if he came near or into any of the presumed "holy places".. A Levite who performed service (the Abaddon word) after David was made king made NOISE and not music to warn that any civillian or even Levite not on duty who came the horrors of the sacrificial system was to be executed: they prophesied with instruments which is defined as soothing or sorcery.

The writer of Hebrews 12 reminds the people of the Mount Sinai events including instrumental idolatry of the REST day repeat the story. The populace refused to listen to God when He specificially warned them about not KEEPING the Rest day which included KEEPING anyone from engaging in their old Egyptian "play."

Hebrews 12:21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)
Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Hebrews 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Hebrews 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
Hebrews 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Hebrews 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

The SHAKING and MOVING includes all of the trumpet-induced self-efforts: Made by human effort includes songs and musical instruments used in the School of the Word. If you make it then God will burn it according to Nadab and Abihu. God gives everyone 168 hours a week to sing and blow their trumpets but Jesus asked pleadingly "could you not tarry with me for one hour?"
 
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Don't hang out with the MASSED MULTITUDE: that is the prophesied pattern:

Luke 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Luke 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luke 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

The Spirit of Christ called the Scribes and Pharisees, Hypocrites: He spoke in Isaiah 6; Isaiah 29 and Ezekiel 33

Ezekiel 33:30 Also, thou son of man, the children of thy people still are talking against thee by the walls and in the doors of the houses, and speak one to another, every one to his brother, saying,
.....Come, I pray you, and hear what is the word that cometh forth from the LORD.
Ezekiel 33:31 And they come unto thee .....AS the people cometh, and they sit before thee AS my people,
.....and they hear thy words, but they will not do them:
.....for with their mouth they shew much love, .....but their heart goeth after their covetousness.

SCRIPTURE OFTEN USES MUSICAL PERFORMERS AS A WAY TO IDENTIFY THOSE NOT LISTENING TO GOD'S WORD:

Ezekiel 33:32 And, lo, thou art unto them
.....AS a very lovely song of one that hath a pleasant voice,
.....and can play well on an instrument:
..........for they hear thy words,
..........but they do them not.
Ezekiel 33:33 And when this cometh to pass, (lo, it will come,)
..........then shall they know that a prophet hath been among them.

PRAISE singing and singers is a very ancient profession: people convinced others that they could PROP UP the gods to keep them from failing--again--by singing Praise Songs. This Praise singer in Babylon was called the Encomiast who was hired to SOOTHE the gods.

Nimrod and modern medical science knows that all forms of music HINDERS the learning process and if you feel those goosebumps that is proof that you are in ecstasy or OUT OF YOURSELF. Music from mystery means "to make the lambs dumb before the slaughter.
 

SparkleEyes

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Mar 23, 2013
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When someone is wrong in what they believe it's a Christians duty to show them why there wrong and help them find the truth, so they can know the truth. If as a Christian you don't help those who are worshipping the wrong way, you will have to answer for that.
The problem is that so many different sides within the Christian world claim the another side is wrong. These discussions about verse interpretation get SO incredibly old and tiresome. Too many people on each side think they are correct and are unwilling to even consider they MIGHT be wrong. And by "each side" oftentimes I mean YOU (YES YOU...ALL OF YOU) and me.

VIRTUALLY ALL OF US, at various times, get very indignant about being told our interpretation of the Bible (be it our own interpretation or what we have been told by our pastor) and so many times, we cannot admit that we might be wrong.

NO OFFENSE, but sometimes long time Christians are the worst offenders. RIGID and UNYIELDING in their views, they are unwilling to consider that a well educated and well read youngun' JUST MAY have a valid point and that person should be part of an intelligent discussion.

And while I am at it, as learned and wise as old time Christian leaders were/are, Billy Graham, John Wesley, our Calvin friend, etc....DO NOT ALWAYS HAVE IT CORRECT. They are merely men and men are NOT ALWAYS RIGHT. I am not dissing these men, but want to point out they are human and therefore by definition, ARE fallible.

OK, I am done. :cool:
 
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Sorry, it is hard to keep up: Back to the Minstrels and Singers making a NOISE which Jesus Cast out so they could not get the FAME, Christ said that the Jews had a Covenant with Death and Hell and believed that nothing could hurt them. This is the MARZEAH in Amos which is a Feast with and for dead ancestors whom they need to appease or use to get goodies. The WORD or Logos or Regulative Principle is the opposite of any performance act we humans often need to AID God (gods). Praise singing meant to Get FROM God whatever it is that the clergy praise singer sung. It also was to keep the gods from failing (again) in giving rain and lots of lambs. Scripture and historic scholars such as Tertullian and Philo note:

Matthew 9:23 And when Jesus came into the ruler’s house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise,

aul-ētēs , ou, ho, A.flute-player, Thgn. 941, Hdt.1.141, 6.60, 129, Ar.V.581, And.1.12, Pl.Prt.327b, auleitas

Thorub-eō , A. make a noise, uproar or disturbance, esp. of crowds, assemblies, Ar. Eq.666, V.622, etc.; “blepōn eis ton aei thorubounta topon tēsekklēsias D.21.194. a. cheer, applaud, Isoc.12.264, Pl.Euthd.303b use excitement amongst .

However you define the minstrels and people making a NOISE I believe that His message is that their music and grief or anything they can do can assist or hinder or get the fame for His Work: He lifts her up, He speaks.

Dem. 21 194As those of you who were present know, gentlemen, he had risen on that occasion to such a height of bravado and impudence that, by abusing and threatening and turning his glance to any quarter of the Assembly that was inclined to be obstreperous, he thought he could browbeat the whole body of citizens. That, I think, must surely make his tears today seem ridiculous. Execrable wretch, what have you to say?

Tertullian, De Spectaculis Let us pass on now to theatrical exhibitions, which we have already shown have a common origin with the circus [Circe=church] , and bear like idolatrous designations-even as from the first they have borne the name of "Ludi," and equally minister to idols.
They resemble each other also in their pomp, having the same procession to the scene of their display from temples and altars, and that mournful profusion of incense and blood,
.........with music of pipes and trumpets,
........ all under the direction of the soothsayer and the undertaker,
........ those two foul masters of funeral rites and sacrifices.
Chapter XIII. Idolatry Clings To the Shows and Funeral Festivals
We have, I think, faithfully carried out our plan of showing in how many
.........different ways the sin of idolatry clings to the shows,
......... in respect of their origins, their titles, their equipments, their places of celebration,
......... their arts; and we may hold it as a thing beyond all doubt,
......... that for us who have twice[Bunsen, Hippol. Vol. iii. pp. 20-22.]
.........renounced all idols, they are utterly unsuitable. "Not that an idol is anything," (1 Cor. viii. 4.) as the apostle says, but that the homage they render is to demons, who are the real occupants of these consecrated images, whether of dead men or (as they think) of gods.

On this account, therefore, because they have a common source-for their dead and their deities are one-we abstain from both idolatries. Nor do we dislike the temples less than the monuments: we have nothing to do with either altar, we adore neither image; we do not offer sacrifices to the gods, and we make no funeral oblations to the departed; nay, we do not partake of what is offered either in the one case or the other, for we cannot partake of God's feast and the feast of devils. (1 Cor. x. 21.)

Chapter XV. Rituals Create Spiritual Agitation or a Burden
Having done enough, then, as we have said, in regard to that principal argument, that there is in them all the taint of idolatry-having sufficiently dealt with that,let us now contrast the other characteristics of the show with the things of God.

God has enjoined us to deal
calmly, gently, quietly, and peacefully with the Holy Spirit,because these things are alone in keeping with the goodness of His nature, with His tenderness and sensitiveness, and not to vex Him with rage, ill-nature, anger, or grief.

Well, how shall this be made to accord with the shows?For the show always leads to spiritual agitation, since where there is pleasure,there is keenness of feeling giving pleasure its zest;and where there is keenness of feeling, there is rivalry giving in turn its zest to that.

Then, too, where you have
rivalry, you have rage, bitterness, wrath and grief, with all bad things which flow from them-the whole entirely outof keeping with the religion of Christ.For even suppose one should enjoy the shows in a moderate way, as befits his rank, age or nature,

still he is not undisturbed in mind, without some unuttered movings of the inner man.No one partakes of pleasures such as these without their strong excitements;

This is the forbidden Laded Burden and the Self-Pleasure of Romans 15. Paul wants both men and women to be silent to prevent this WRATH or ORGY. The purpose He defined is so that "We might all be saved and come to a knowledge of the Truth." That was also to recognize that there is ONE GOD the Father and ONE mediator, Jesus. Paul warned that if they needed further information HE would write them a letter. Most people in Churches of Christ do not know why all church scolars and founders of denominations denounced any of the performance arts and crafts. So, forgive us if we stay awake and watch when people boast about "infiltrating our school of Christ and turning it into a theater for holy entertainment" because eminent domain gives them the RIGHT to confiscate your property and church family. I've been there, been done that from Seattle to Tennessee THREE times. I have noted that they say you cannot fool an earthworm three times in a row so I have a 115 hermitage in the middle of a 2600 acre forest and I an't a coming out for loud singing (sanging) with or without instruments because the mose ancient people warned that they are out to hurt you.
 
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Timeline

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Mar 20, 2014
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As a member of the Church of Christ I cannot believe what has happened in the last twenty years in which some Churches of Christ have decided to add instruments to their worshipping, which I feel is a sin. If you are a member of a Church of Christ who has instruments in your church, tell me where you got your authorization to do this? What has changed in the last twenty years to change how you have decided to worship with instruments when the Churches of Christ prior to the last twenty years were always instrument free .
I grew up in the Church of Christ as well. The only thing that has changed with me, in the last few years, is that I have started reading the bible. If you think that using an instrument is wrong, then it is wrong for you (Roman 14:23 ...whatever is not from faith is sin; read whole chapter). Instruments are used throughout the Old Testament, are mentioned in by Paul in the new, and in Revelation it says , " holding harps of God" Rev 15:2. I am happy without instruments in service, but I no longer consider it to be a sin. In Samuel David's playing caused an evil spirit to leave Saul. I do not believe this to be the problem that we have made it into.
 
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Doubtful Disputations in Romans 14 are forbidden: that means person opinions which do not edify meaning EDUCATE.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Therefore, you cannot hold a doubtful opinion BY FAITH if you have not read it by HEARING the Word of God.

In Romans 15 Paul outlaws Self-Pleasure: Greek Areskos or Latin Placeo. Which eleminates rhetoric, music, acting or anything which prevents the ONLY command for the assembly which Paul says "use one mind and one mouth to speak that which is written for our learning" or Scripture for COMFORT.

The Harp of God is defined often in the classics as the ORGAN which He gave you for SPEAKING: The vocal cords are vibrated, the throat is like a pipe, the tongue articulates and the head is the sounding board. God never made nor commanded literal harps: if God abandones the nation to worship the starry host BECAUSE of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai then He will not supply musical instruments: He ordained two silver trumpets to be used ONLY for communicating often life and death events.

Jeremiah 4:21 How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?
Amos 2:2 But I will send a fire upon Moab, and it shall devour the palaces of Kerioth: and Moab shall die with tumult, with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet:
Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Zephaniah 1:16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

The SOUNDS-LIKE are all sounds of panic: when you hear them in Revelation 14 the angel to the LIVING sees this as a sound of judgment and IF you are still living the command is to PREACH the gospel to all nations.

THEY HELD THE HARP OF GOD (not the harp of David or Al). God's harp is ORGANIC. The word is NOT PLAYING but APPREHENDING THE WORD OF GOD.

Since they are going to SING: no one ever dared PLAY an instrument in the presence of God: NO, He was not in the temple.


Ekhō 9. possess mentally, understand, “hippōn dmēsin” Il.17.476; “tnēn” Hes.Th.770;
“pant' eis logon A. Ag.582,
.....Everyone INTO the Word.
..........ogos
.......... Opposite: kata pathos,
Arist.EN1169a5; YOUR personal experiences or opinions.
.......... Opposite aisth-ēsis A
. sense-perception, sensation2. display of feeling, Arist.Rh.1386a32 (v.l.).
........ Opposite stage-effects, Po. 1454b16; aisthēseis theōn visible appearances of the gods,
.......... ..........ek tēs epagōgēs, 2. bringing in to one's aid, introduction,
....... .4. allurement, enticement, “tais elpisi kai tais e.” D.19.322.
.......... ....... b. incantation, spell,
....7. leading away into captivity, captivity,
Opposite muthos, as history to legend, Ti.26e; “poiein muthous all' ou logous”
Opposite 4. speech, delivered in court, assembly, etc rhētorikōn,
..........IX intelligent utterance, Opposite. phōnē, Arist.Pol.1253a14; “l. esti phōnē sēmantikē kata sunthēkēn”
..........prose, Opposite. poiēsis, Id.R.390a; opp. psilometria, Arist.Po.1448a11; opp. emmetra, ib.1450b15 (pl.)
..........Opposite poiētikē, D.H.Comp.6; opp. poiēmata, ib.15; “koina kai poiēmatōn kai logōn”
..........2.b Only the WORDS to melos [melody]

Ekhō continued.
cf. E.Alc.51; “ete to pragma S.Ph.789; eis ti; do you understand? Ar.Nu.733: imper.e attend! listen! Pl.Alc.1.109b; e. oun ib. 129b: with imper., “', apokathaire” Ar.Pax1193; “e. nun, aleipson” Id.Eq.490; eis touto iskhurōs; Pl.Tht.154a; know of a thing, “mantikēs hodon” S.OT311; tina sōtērian; E.Or.778 (troch.).
hēpar ousi” Od.9.301;
10. keep away from, c. gen.rei,
tina agoraōn, neōn, Il.2.275, 13.687; “goōn” S.El.375;
phonou”[murder] E.HF1005: c.inf., “ē tina . . skhēsō amunemenai” Il.17.182;
stop, hinder from
doing,

“ei phatin Dionuso phanēs thapsai Mardonion” Id.9.84; [“Kleisthenēs logon ei tēn Puthiēn anapeisai” Id.5.66); hōs an logos ē pros anthrōpous, hoti . . Plu.Alex.38:

kōmos
, ho “deipna kai sun aulētrisi kōmoi” Pl.Tht.173d Dionusiois hē pompē
II.the ode sung at one of these festive processions, Pi.P.8.20, 70, O.4.10, B.8.103; “meligaruōn tektones kōmōn” Pi.N.3.5, cf. Ar.Th.104, 988

THE ISSUE is that the instrumentalists within Churches of Christ say that NOT using instruments makes us a CULT

Recent Accusation: and to refuse to permit that which God Himslef has (P93) SAID TO USE. To forbid their use, where God has SAID TO USE THEM, as in Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 is flagrant sin (Rev 22:18:19)

c. 1900 attack upon those who would not permit their property to be confiscated.
"What have they to do with my worship of God? The whole thing comes from a devilish, domineering spirit, which, instead of worshipping God, has taken God's seat in judgment to control the praise others may bring... it is well enough to teach them: but 'rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubborness is as iniquity and idolatry. (1 Samuel 15:23)
..........Who put the twelfth commandment into God's law, saying, "Thou shalt not have an instrument of music in the congregation of the saints?" David [Lipscomb], the destructive critic, when, like the "man of sin," he sits in the temple of God, says: "Thou shalt not." That is the corner stone of his departure--the foundation of his schism. Their church is built upon it, and a few old fogies have made it a test of fellowship. God will shake their thunder out of them and put some lightning into them one of these days. [p.28]


You will find no Church of Christ preacher boasting about Infiltrating and Diverting an instrumental church and tossing out the instruments.
 
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posthuman

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However you define the minstrels and people making a NOISE I believe that His message is that their music and grief or anything they can do can assist or hinder or get the fame for His Work: He lifts her up, He speaks.

how on earth you think the minstrels or the wailing women were going to "get the fame" for Christ raising the dead is beyond me.

if the issue was music, He would not have sent out the wailing women.
if the issue was music, the other two gospels would have mentioned the minstrels. though the story is repeated in 3 gospels, "minstrels" are only mentioned in one. boy if that was supposed to be the point of the story, i wonder how the apostles missed it ??

how on earth you think the minstrels were going to "hinder the fame" is also beyond me. you know how fame was often spread? minstrels, singing in song the great things that were done, traveled from town to town, spreading the fame of the one they sang about. that's not the minstrel's fame, it's the subject of the song.

how you miss the part where Jesus also commanded them not to tell anyone about what He had done there however is not beyond me. i've seen ample evidence of you completely disregarding what the Bible actually says.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,903
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113
Sorry, it is hard to keep up
i can help you with that!

stop chasing carnal agendas down rabbit holes, and concentrate on rejoicing in Christ!


:D

For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
(Matthew 11:30)
 
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I have removed the Links: I doubt that the moderators want all of the "stuff" although it points to online resources and I don't get paid.

Jesus died to remove the LADED BURDEN and BURDEN LADER. Then we can accept the gospel promise of REST and come learn of ME. A laded burden is specificially a sacrifice or the Scribes and Levites replacing the Word with their own songs and commandments SO that they didn't have to teach the Word. Here are some of the ways in which this BURDEN is used to include anything that we can do with the works of human hands. I truly hurt to say it but God just does not need us to accomplish His Will other than to GO and TEACH. The flow of information is one way: handed down by a higher authority in both the ekklesia and synagogue. That restricts us to keep the peace among all believers and leaves us the rest of the week to engage in music or drama all we wish. Whatever you think Jesus meant at that time, there is no user-friendly example in history for the LADED BURDEN and REST. Rest always means Rest FROM whatever anyone wants to impose on individual disciples of Christ: A church is built upon or educated by the Prophets and Apostles. I don't know how to educate others so that they can be a disciple of Christ in their own time and space. Plant, Water and let God give the growth. I can supply links to any of the words or the Greek or Latin text where the used is defined by how it is used. When God sings a "burden" in Hebrew it is always sounding their doom.

Phort-izō , *A. load, “phortisas ton onon” Babr.111.3; phortia ph. tinas load them with burdens, Ev.Luc.11.46; perissē dapanē ph. ta koina Dörner Erlass des Statthalters von Asia Paullus Fabius Persicus 16; “hudatis -izousa ton ophthalmon” encumbering, Paul.Aeg.6.14; aukhena ph. Aenigma Sphingis (ap.Sch.E.Ph.50):—Med., ta meiona phortizesthai ship the smaller part of one's wealth, Hes.Op.690; phortioumenos meli to carry away a load of honey, Macho ap.Ath.13.582f: metaph., “phuteuein kai ph.” Phld.Vit.p.33J.—Pass., to be heavy laden, “pephortismenos” Ev.Matt.11.28,

The burden in Greek includes:
Epōd-os , on, (epadō) A. singing to or over, using songs or charms to heal wounds, “epōdoi muthoi” Pl.Lg.903b.
b. Subst., enchanter, “e. kai goēs” E.Hipp. 1038 (but “goēs e.” Ba.234): c. gen., a charm for or against, “ethusen hautou paida epōdon Thrēkiōn aēmatōn” A.Ag.1418 ; e. tōn toioutōn one to charm away such fears, Pl.Phd.78a.
2. Epōdos, ho, verse or passage returning at intervals, in Alcaics and Sapphics, D.H.Comp.19 ; chorus, burden, refrain, Ph. 1.312 : metaph., ho koinos hapasēs adoleskhias e. the 'old story', Plu.2.507e.

When you have sung the chorus once to repeat it over and over is defined as enchantment or sorcery.

-Phortos is less complicated but is the same meaning as Phortosa

A. load, freight, cargo, Od.8.163, 14.296, Hes.Op. 631, Hdt.1.1, S.Tr.537, and later Prose, as PEnteux.2.11 (iii B. C.), Plu.Marc.14, Luc.VH1.34; epoiēsanto me ph., expld. as pepragmateumai, prodedomai, phortos gegenēmai, Call.Fr.4.10P.; ph.erōtos,
2. metaph., heavy load or burden, ph. khreias, kakōn, E.Supp.20, IT1306; cf. phortion.
II. Att., vulgar stuff, rubbish, balderdash, Ar.Pax748 (anap.) Pl.796.
III. mass of detail, 'stuff', in semi-colloquial sense, Aret.CD1.4

BURDEN IS: Epoiēsanto A. make, produce, first of something material, as manufactures, works of art, tragōdian, “palinōdian”
Explained as pepragmateumai, prodedomai, phortos gegenēmai, b. represent in poetry, c. describe in verse, muthon opposite of LOGOS
gets him money as a cleric 2. procure, “p. adeian te kai kathodon tini” Th.8.76; “ho nomos p. tēn klēronomian tisi”
3. of sacrifices, festivals, etc., celebrate, Aristoph. Peace 748
VIII. in later Greek, sacrifice, “moskharion” LXXEx.29.36; karpōseis [fruit] huper tinos ib.Jb.42.8: without acc., p. Astartēsacrifice to Ashtoreth, ib.3 Ki.11.33.

......A. Pragmateuomai work at at thing, labour to bring it about, take in hand, treat laboriously, be engaged in. Work at writing religious poetry for use around the shrine or Hieros the temple of Athena

BURDEN IS: Phortos 4. after Hom., of Poets, compose, write, p. dithurambon, epea, Hdt.1.23, 4.14; “p.
Represent in verse,or poetry, invent, represent, myths, comedy, tragedy
BURDEN IS Phortos: Erōs , ōtos, o(, acc. erōn —love, mostly of the sexual passion, name of theklēros Aphroditēs,
III. of the Levites, “Kurios autos klēros autou” LXX De.18.2:

The Service of the Levites was Abadoh which is the Abaddon or Apollyon word because God had turned Israel over to worship the starry host because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai.

The work of the Saturous: the Mark is Singing as a sign, BEAST is a new style of music or Satyric Drama. II. in pl., a play in which the Chorus consisted of Satyrs, Satyric drama, forming the fourth piece of a Tragic tetralogy, Lukophron Wolf-Minded

BURDEN IS: Phortos 2. metaph., heavy load or burden, ph. khreias, kakōn, E.Supp.20, IT1306; cf. phortion.
Eur. Supp. 20 Before the temple of Demeter at Eleusis. On the steps of the great altar is seated Aethra. Around her, in the garb of suppliants, is the Chorus of Argive mothers. Adrastus lies on the ground before the altar, crushed in abject grief. The children of the slain chieftains stand nearby. Around the altar are the attendants of the goddess.

BURDEN IS: II. Att., vulgar stuff, rubbish, balderdash, Ar.Pax748 (anap.) Pl.796.
 
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I grew up in the Church of Christ as well. The only thing that has changed with me, in the last few years, is that I have started reading the bible. If you think that using an instrument is wrong, then it is wrong for you (Roman 14:23 ...whatever is not from faith is sin; read whole chapter). Instruments are used throughout the Old Testament, are mentioned in by Paul in the new, and in Revelation it says , " holding harps of God" Rev 15:2. I am happy without instruments in service, but I no longer consider it to be a sin. In Samuel David's playing caused an evil spirit to leave Saul. I do not believe this to be the problem that we have made it into.
We are not under the Old Testament Laws, and many things in Revelation are descriptive signs and symbols, and if there are instruments in heaven, that's fine. We are in N.T. times and God has COMMANDED SINGING. We cannot ignore the commands of singing only. The past is the past and the future is yet to be. Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16. It's a very big deal to decide to worship our creator any other way than the way he has commanded us to worship. If you say that these are not commands, then I must say you're wrong, if you say they are commands, then they must be done. If we do not abide by his commands, we have sinned, it's just that way.
 
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and saw the minstrels
and
the people
......\making a noise, [singers etc.]

Everyone was MAKING A NOISE meaning the FLUTE PLAYERS (minstrels) and the people because the NOISE implicates singing in all of the Rituals WITH and FOR Dead People

Everyone was PUT OUT

Mark 5:36 As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe.
Mark 5:37 And he suffered no man to follow him, save Peter, and James, and John the brother of James.
Mark 5:38 And he cometh to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and seeth the tumult, and them that wept and wailed greatly.
Mark 5:39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.

klaiontaskaialalazontaspolla,

Plutarch and others understanding the instrumental fall at Mount Sinai say that the godly Jews had fled and the same Levites anticipated that Dionysus or Bacchus would be their Messiah as he had been worshipped in the confiscated Temple. Therefore, consistent with Christ warning about a Covenant with Death and Hell and the Marzeah defined by Amos and Jeremiah the word probably. When Jesus called the MEN of Jerusalem children or BOYS (Isaiah 3) who PIPED and their purpose was to cause Jesus to LAMENT and DANCE to prove that He was one of them.

Alazontas meant 2. [Halal] generally, cry, shout aloud, Pi.l.c., E.El.855; esp. in orgiastic rites, [WRATN] A.Fr.57; of Bacchus and Bacchae, E.Ba.593 (in Med.), 1133, etc.; “ōloluxan hai gunaikes, ēlalaxan de hoi andres

Paul used the Word to define:
also of other sounds than the voice, sound loudly, “psalmosd'alalazei” A.Fr.57; “kumbalon alalazon1 Ep.Cor.13.1.

1Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels,
and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

Paul commands that we SPEAK that which is written for our learning: Lexis is opposite to ODE and Psallo is a warfare Word: therefore, Paul said ODE and PSALLO In (En, Eis) the heart which means SILENT as in 1 Corinthians 14. Simple congregational singing has probably been distorted to loud performance singing which seems to lead to instruments. God is not deaf and "singing" was nothing like "musical worship teams" performing the role God gave Jesus.

THE ANGELS:

Aggelos , of a loquacious person 2. generally, one that announces or tells, e.g. of birds of augury, Il.24.292,296;Mousōnaggelos,

Abaddon or Apollyon is the Leader of the Muses: In Revelation 18 John calls them sorcerers..

Mousa A.“Olumpiades M., Dios aigiokhoio thugateres”
“kanakhan [Clanging]. . theias antiluron [play the lyre] mousas” S.Tr.643 (lyr.); “Aiakō moisan pherein”
Theiazo be inspired, frenzied, prophesy, II. worship as divine, Id.59.27; “Puthagoran kai Platōna”

Paul CAST OUT the Pythian Spirit.

La^l-eō ,Mark of the Locusts
II. chatter, Opposite. articulate speech, as of locusts, chirp, Theoc.5.34; mesēmbrias lalein tettix (sc. eimi), a very grasshopper to chirp at midday,
III. of musical sounds, “aulō [flute] laleō” Theoc.20.29; of trees, v.supr.1.2; “di'aulou [flute] ē salpiggos l.”[trumpet] Arist. Aud.801a29; of Echo, magadin lalein sound the magadis, [double flute]
 
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