Salvation Not Possible Without Works
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K
I think what some are confuse with here are the words salvation and faith. Salvation is a free gift given to us by Christ. Believing in him is all you have to do to obtain it. Faith now is the level you live your life for Christ. There are if you read in the scriptures different rewards for us in heaven, and we live our life ( the works we do ) determines the reward we get. If you how ever think you have earn your way into heaven by the works you do, it will be shown to you that your thinking is in vain. You don't have to earn your way. It is a free gift by believing in Jesus Christ.
I didn't say works didn't matter. Again, speaking out of ignorance. The judgement he is referring to is not one for salvation but one for Christians that is based upon works. It is referred to as the "Bema" and its based upon our works, the judgement is to determine our reward, not our salvation. Key being what I'm about to bold in this verse (out of these verses)
[h=3]1 Corinthians 3:11-15[/h]King James Version (KJV)
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
He is STILL saved. <--- period.
[h=3]1 Corinthians 3:11-15[/h]King James Version (KJV)
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
He is STILL saved. <--- period.
I didn't say works didn't matter. Again, speaking out of ignorance. The judgement he is referring to is not one for salvation but one for Christians that is based upon works. It is referred to as the "Bema" and its based upon our works, the judgement is to determine our reward, not our salvation. Key being what I'm about to bold in this verse (out of these verses)
1 Corinthians 3:11-15
King James Version (KJV)
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
He is STILL saved. <--- period.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15
King James Version (KJV)
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
He is STILL saved. <--- period.
Ephesians 2:10 - For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Matthew 5:16 - Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: (Read More...)
James 2:14-17 - What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? (Read More...)
James 2:26 - For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
2 Timothy 3:17 - That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
James 2:18 - Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Its that simple.
Also, please dont keep saying im ignorant. You can say we disagree, but don't insult me please.
So that means I can commit adultery and as long as I believe in Jesus I will go to heaven? No it doesnt.
The gift the offer to accept the chance is there. You just need to repent and try your best to do as God told us to do. However, it isn't easy. There are many things that can send you to hell 1 Corinthians 6:9
The gift the offer to accept the chance is there. You just need to repent and try your best to do as God told us to do. However, it isn't easy. There are many things that can send you to hell 1 Corinthians 6:9
I'm not meaning for it to be an insult, I'm stating it as a fact. You are speaking out of ignorance. I am not calling you an ignoramus, I am saying that you are speaking out of ignorance of what those verses mean. And to be honest, I would have too this very morning, but I came upon that article and it cleared it up for me. I too was ignorant and would've been baffled how Paul and James contradict each other(seemingly) but now I realize that is not the case. If you feel I have insulted you, apologies, but I also have a request. Stop reposting your wall of verses, because they, as I said, are being quoted out of ignorance as to what they mean. Please, read the link.
Now as a closing statement for now (temporary closing statement) because I have lots of homework to do, I need to workout, I need to talk to my fiance, and I need to wakeup in a few hours and go to College. This is what I have to say:
1) I am just quoting from the Bible. If you disagree with me that is fine, however I am just saying what the Bible says.
2) I am not the only one to have this point of view. Many have tried to get this point across that works are necessary, but many choose not to believe.
3) Just on a logical perspective, if works didn't matter at all, then Jesus wouldn't have emhpasized in Matthew 5 of the importance of doing extra when doing good works. Or Matthew 5:31-46 wouldn't emphasize on the good works being the cause of them going to hell. It just makes sense and it's fairly well explained in the other verses I have posted.
4) -this is mainly for Ben- I will read that when I get time. As for now for a few days I am ridiculously busy. However, I will take time out just to read what you sent and send you my point of view. Whether you want me to post it here or in a pm, that is up to you.
So for now I say God bless you all and I will respond to everything later.
1) I am just quoting from the Bible. If you disagree with me that is fine, however I am just saying what the Bible says.
2) I am not the only one to have this point of view. Many have tried to get this point across that works are necessary, but many choose not to believe.
3) Just on a logical perspective, if works didn't matter at all, then Jesus wouldn't have emhpasized in Matthew 5 of the importance of doing extra when doing good works. Or Matthew 5:31-46 wouldn't emphasize on the good works being the cause of them going to hell. It just makes sense and it's fairly well explained in the other verses I have posted.
4) -this is mainly for Ben- I will read that when I get time. As for now for a few days I am ridiculously busy. However, I will take time out just to read what you sent and send you my point of view. Whether you want me to post it here or in a pm, that is up to you.
So for now I say God bless you all and I will respond to everything later.
Look, you keep saying im ignorant. It is insulting because you assume you are 100% correct without thinking you can possibly being wrong. Yet you assume my quotes are wrong even though the verses say them themselves. The Bible says works are a part of faith. You are not arguing with me, you are arguing with the Bible its that simple. But I will be back I have to go especially now because my fiance just woke up and I have much to do.
That's the problem! They choose not to believe, and choose to rely upon their works. lol
You can post it here, but please, dont think in terms of making a rebuttal. Be open to what you'll be reading. Dont think this is an argument to win, this is to bring you to the truth. I am sharing this to help you.
You can post it here, but please, dont think in terms of making a rebuttal. Be open to what you'll be reading. Dont think this is an argument to win, this is to bring you to the truth. I am sharing this to help you.
K
Right you have to do your best to live a good life, but salvation is based on you believing on Christ not your works. If you try to make salvation about works then all will go to hell and nobody will be saved. We all have sinned, but through repentance we are forgiven. And the bible does say all sins are forgiven accept blasphemy of the Holy Spirit ( non-belief ). This does not mean you can go every day and continue to sin purposely. But if you are saved and say in the next 10 to 20 years you commit adultery once or twice, or a situation arises and you end up killing a person. If you repent for that or any other sins you may commit here or there. You will be forgiven.
faith and works are all from grace, we are not able to save ourselves by doing anything. It is by the grace of God.
Faith without works is dead , works without love is dead. It is by God's grace that we receive the faith and love needed to do good works. Nothing we do saves us. Jesus saved everyone the Father has given to him. We just say Amen to what God has done.
Salvation is not possible without the grace of God.
Faith without works is dead , works without love is dead. It is by God's grace that we receive the faith and love needed to do good works. Nothing we do saves us. Jesus saved everyone the Father has given to him. We just say Amen to what God has done.
Salvation is not possible without the grace of God.
Hmmm this is all very interesting..
I think I wanna say what I feel about all this.
We are saved by grace and faith. When we have faith we believe Jesus died for our sins and came back again.
Because we believe this we want to do works for the Lord. Not because we feel it will save us (Jesus already did that when he died for us) but because we LOVE God and want to live to glorify Him.. And our good works glorify Him.
To have faith is to want to do works for God because we Love him.
But to do works alone doesn't mean we have faith.
Now I could be wrong.. but that's just how I feel.
Please by all means if I'm missing something tell me. Just don't be rude..
I don't know the bible the way some of you do..I've been studying but I have a lot to learn. So please be patient with me..
I think I wanna say what I feel about all this.
We are saved by grace and faith. When we have faith we believe Jesus died for our sins and came back again.
Because we believe this we want to do works for the Lord. Not because we feel it will save us (Jesus already did that when he died for us) but because we LOVE God and want to live to glorify Him.. And our good works glorify Him.
To have faith is to want to do works for God because we Love him.
But to do works alone doesn't mean we have faith.
Now I could be wrong.. but that's just how I feel.
Please by all means if I'm missing something tell me. Just don't be rude..
I don't know the bible the way some of you do..I've been studying but I have a lot to learn. So please be patient with me..
Presley: Excellent summary of Biblical truth, if I may say so. A lot of unbelieving theologians have delved into these sacred mysteries and their pride and unbelief have hindered them from grasping it.
A simple dependence by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus' sin atoning work at the Cross for sinners is the key to understanding the wondrous Gospel of God's grace.
Blessings.
A simple dependence by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus' sin atoning work at the Cross for sinners is the key to understanding the wondrous Gospel of God's grace.
Blessings.
I go out of town for 3 days and come back to yet another verse on legalism and twisting of Scriptures and bad theology. If you read the Greek, you will find that this entire legalist mess of faith + works melts into a sad rejected mess of bad theology. Plus, you have totally ignored the fact that salvation is a process - which God is the one who always initiates and brings to pass.
The key verbs for justification, works beforehand and sanctification are in the Aorist Passive tense. That means it is something that happened in the past (not our works in the present or future) and God does it to us. Learn the Greek, if you want to straighten out your mess of theology, Seabass! Here is the Greek as follows:
NUMBER 1
Justification - made right with God.
Greek - Dikaiothentes Δικαιωθέντες, Aorist passive Participle. Aorist points to a completed action. Theologically, the passive tense indicates that God has done the action upon the subject.
Δικαιωθέντες, = having been justified! Past tense, passive. Completed action!
"Δικαιωθέντες οὖν ἐκ πίστεως εἰρήνην ἔχομεν πρὸς τὸν θεὸν διὰ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ," Romans 5:1
Or, in modern English:
"Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1
Martin Luther is right again! (I am not Lutheran, but he was certainly right about this!)
God is the one who justifies us, and it is a completed action, in the past tense, without works, God does it. In other words, God is sovereign!
"λογιζόμεθα γὰρ δικαιοῦσθαι πίστει ἄνθρωπον χωρὶς ἔργων νόμου." Romans 3:28
"For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law." Romans 3:28
δικαιοῦσθαι - present infinitive passive - to be justified. Once again, God is the one who justifies us, not our works! Passive tense means the action is done upon us, not something we do!
NUMBER 2
Sanctification - the process where God walks with us and we become sanctified in his service.
"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life." Romans 6:22 ESV
"νυνὶ δέ, ἐλευθερωθέντες ἀπὸ τῆς ἁμαρτίας δουλωθέντες δὲ τῷ θεῷ, ἔχετε τὸν καρπὸν ὑμῶν εἰς ἁγιασμόν, τὸ δὲ τέλος ζωὴν αἰώνιον." Romans 6:22 Greek
ἁγιασμός - sanctification, holiness, consecration. It refers to the process of being set apart for God's service and the development and display of HIS characteristics.
"And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Cor. 6:11
"καὶ ταῦτά τινες ἦτε· ἀλλὰ ἀπελούσασθε, ἀλλὰ ἡγιάσθητε, ἀλλὰ ἐδικαιώθητε ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι τοῦ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ καὶ ἐν τῷ πνεύματι τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν."
ἡγιάσθητε - Aorist, indicative Passive. From άγιάζω - Note the passive tense, which means we are set apart for the use of God, made holy, "claimed by God as his own, and made a member of His holy people BY GOD, NOT OUR OWN WORKS."
God sanctifies us, and that includes the works prepared beforehand.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [SUP]9 [/SUP]not a result of works, so that no one may boast. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Eph. 2:8-10 ESV
"τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι [SUP][a][/SUP]διὰ πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον· [SUP]9 [/SUP]οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων, ἵνα μή τις καυχήσηται. [SUP]10 [/SUP]αὐτοῦ γάρ ἐσμεν ποίημα, κτισθέντες ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ ἐπὶ ἔργοις ἀγαθοῖς οἷς προητοίμασεν ὁ θεὸς ἵνα ἐν αὐτοῖς περιπατήσωμεν." Eph. 2:8-10
ἔργοις ἀγαθοῖς - good works - the prepostion epi ἐπὶ, indicates the goal.
προητοίμασεν - the Aorist points to a specific act that has taken place. Past tense! The preposition refers to a period before the action described in the participle.
περιπατήσωμεν - Aorist Subjunctive Active. Past tense! To walk. Or live with God. Something God has ordained from the past!
NUMBER 3
Glorification. Leaving this for another post! Enough info in this post already!
**The Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament by Cleon Rogers Jr. and Cleon Rogers III, Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1998.
The key verbs for justification, works beforehand and sanctification are in the Aorist Passive tense. That means it is something that happened in the past (not our works in the present or future) and God does it to us. Learn the Greek, if you want to straighten out your mess of theology, Seabass! Here is the Greek as follows:
NUMBER 1
Justification - made right with God.
Greek - Dikaiothentes Δικαιωθέντες, Aorist passive Participle. Aorist points to a completed action. Theologically, the passive tense indicates that God has done the action upon the subject.
Δικαιωθέντες, = having been justified! Past tense, passive. Completed action!
"Δικαιωθέντες οὖν ἐκ πίστεως εἰρήνην ἔχομεν πρὸς τὸν θεὸν διὰ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ," Romans 5:1
Or, in modern English:
"Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1
Martin Luther is right again! (I am not Lutheran, but he was certainly right about this!)
God is the one who justifies us, and it is a completed action, in the past tense, without works, God does it. In other words, God is sovereign!
"λογιζόμεθα γὰρ δικαιοῦσθαι πίστει ἄνθρωπον χωρὶς ἔργων νόμου." Romans 3:28
"For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law." Romans 3:28
δικαιοῦσθαι - present infinitive passive - to be justified. Once again, God is the one who justifies us, not our works! Passive tense means the action is done upon us, not something we do!
NUMBER 2
Sanctification - the process where God walks with us and we become sanctified in his service.
"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life." Romans 6:22 ESV
"νυνὶ δέ, ἐλευθερωθέντες ἀπὸ τῆς ἁμαρτίας δουλωθέντες δὲ τῷ θεῷ, ἔχετε τὸν καρπὸν ὑμῶν εἰς ἁγιασμόν, τὸ δὲ τέλος ζωὴν αἰώνιον." Romans 6:22 Greek
ἁγιασμός - sanctification, holiness, consecration. It refers to the process of being set apart for God's service and the development and display of HIS characteristics.
"And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Cor. 6:11
"καὶ ταῦτά τινες ἦτε· ἀλλὰ ἀπελούσασθε, ἀλλὰ ἡγιάσθητε, ἀλλὰ ἐδικαιώθητε ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι τοῦ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ καὶ ἐν τῷ πνεύματι τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν."
ἡγιάσθητε - Aorist, indicative Passive. From άγιάζω - Note the passive tense, which means we are set apart for the use of God, made holy, "claimed by God as his own, and made a member of His holy people BY GOD, NOT OUR OWN WORKS."
God sanctifies us, and that includes the works prepared beforehand.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [SUP]9 [/SUP]not a result of works, so that no one may boast. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Eph. 2:8-10 ESV
"τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι [SUP][a][/SUP]διὰ πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον· [SUP]9 [/SUP]οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων, ἵνα μή τις καυχήσηται. [SUP]10 [/SUP]αὐτοῦ γάρ ἐσμεν ποίημα, κτισθέντες ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ ἐπὶ ἔργοις ἀγαθοῖς οἷς προητοίμασεν ὁ θεὸς ἵνα ἐν αὐτοῖς περιπατήσωμεν." Eph. 2:8-10
ἔργοις ἀγαθοῖς - good works - the prepostion epi ἐπὶ, indicates the goal.
προητοίμασεν - the Aorist points to a specific act that has taken place. Past tense! The preposition refers to a period before the action described in the participle.
περιπατήσωμεν - Aorist Subjunctive Active. Past tense! To walk. Or live with God. Something God has ordained from the past!
NUMBER 3
Glorification. Leaving this for another post! Enough info in this post already!
**The Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament by Cleon Rogers Jr. and Cleon Rogers III, Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1998.
Sorry if I'm being too aggressive with how I am wording that you are misunderstanding the verses. You have a misunderstanding and it would be to our benefit for you to first read the article and continue with the conversation, is all I meant. Because, with that misunderstanding (that is solved by reading the article) our conversation is just fruitless and unedifying(which I do not want). Again, sorry.
IN the tribulation; faith without works will indeed be dead. James is written to the twelve tribes which are scattered aborad and is Doctrinally pointed at Jews in the time of Jacob's trouble.
A tribulation saint must endure unto the end to be saved.
Salvation in Daniel's 70th week will be Faith with an element of works for salvation. Just like it was in the Old Testament.
Both Jew and Gentile will have to secure their salvation by doing the right works (Matt. 25). And also by not taking the mark of the beast (Rev. 14:9-12).
Salvation today in the Church Age though is only by Grace through Faith (Eph. 2:8-10; Tit. 3:4-7).