Salvation Not Possible Without Works
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I like this quote from the long article:
"What place do works have in the life of the Christian? They don’t get us eternal life. They don’t help us keep eternal life. They don’t prove we have eternal life. But they do make our faith profitable for that day when we stand before the Bema seat, and they do help us have better fellowship with other Christians and they do help our faith mature and grow as God wants it to."
Blessings.
"What place do works have in the life of the Christian? They don’t get us eternal life. They don’t help us keep eternal life. They don’t prove we have eternal life. But they do make our faith profitable for that day when we stand before the Bema seat, and they do help us have better fellowship with other Christians and they do help our faith mature and grow as God wants it to."
Blessings.
People disagree on where to cut it off (the quote) and where the objector is no longer speaking (and when James finally enters). However, the article represented it in a manner that was convincing, especially in light of surrounding text(context). It makes sense.
From the article: Do you see how they get around not having quotation marks? They introduce the objector with the phrase, “But someone will say” and then they conclude the objection with a somewhat derogatory phrase. Now, let’s see if James uses this same structure back in James 2.In James 2:18, we read But someone will say. So James does open the quote in the normal way by introducing the objector. But then where does the objection end? Well, the NKJV puts it half way through verse 18. But there is no derogatory phrase there. The NAS takes it a bit further and carries the quote all the way to the end of verse 18. But there is no derogatory phrase there either. Where is the derogatory phrase? Where should the end quote be? Look at James 2:20. But do you want to know, O foolish man,…
From the article: Do you see how they get around not having quotation marks? They introduce the objector with the phrase, “But someone will say” and then they conclude the objection with a somewhat derogatory phrase. Now, let’s see if James uses this same structure back in James 2.In James 2:18, we read But someone will say. So James does open the quote in the normal way by introducing the objector. But then where does the objection end? Well, the NKJV puts it half way through verse 18. But there is no derogatory phrase there. The NAS takes it a bit further and carries the quote all the way to the end of verse 18. But there is no derogatory phrase there either. Where is the derogatory phrase? Where should the end quote be? Look at James 2:20. But do you want to know, O foolish man,…
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I can just see the man that Jesus was before He was crucified listening to this argument! Can't you just see His reaction if someone went to Him and said "look how wonderful I am and all I have done, so accept me into your kingdom". Or a drunk went to Christ saying the he repents of all his sins, he will turn from all of them, but let me drink as much as I want and wipe me clean of all but that, I like it too much to let it go. ---or my fancy car I idolize, or the movies that glamorize sin or----.
You could tell Christ all these excuses for "no law" that you have all gathered like "it won't save" or any of them. I don't think Christ would listen to any of it. Christ looks for the humble, repentant, teachable person who truly loves Him.
You could tell Christ all these excuses for "no law" that you have all gathered like "it won't save" or any of them. I don't think Christ would listen to any of it. Christ looks for the humble, repentant, teachable person who truly loves Him.
David, here is a video that may help you. It is a sermon taught by a Bible believing preacher who rightly divides the Book. Understanding the Dispensations in the word of God is very important.
The Gospel Of Salvation In The Tribulation
[video=youtube;bmgR8swVepc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmgR8swVepc[/video]
[video=youtube;bmgR8swVepc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmgR8swVepc[/video]
L
Hi faroukfarouk,
Jesus Christ secured not only our salvation but gave us a new relationship to God. God is interested in a relationship with us. He is a personal God. He seeks for us to be intimately acquainted with Him. We can't have that intimacy unless we trust Him.
All I can tell you a long side some of the posts on this thread is if our salvation and our relationship with the God of the universe depended on our attempts, than yes, confusion and doubt would be the conclusion. If our relationship with God depended on us than we would never experience the peace and security of our salvation and relationship to God the Father. We would always be second guessing whether we "really" did accept and if we "really" did make that mark of the high calling.
Jesus is the only one who could have done that. I personally have left the fate of my soul in His hands and He has never let me down. My feelings have let me down., my actions and motives have let me down. While walking this path of life now as a follower of Jesus Christ I am soooo thankful He is in charge of my life's direction. Following Him is my new goal.
When I fail He lifts me up. He knows we are a pile of dust in these bodies but He - for some reason known only to Him., loves us with an everlasting love. Everlasting means forever.,not until my next sin. He did not say He loved and died for the angels or any other created thing except mankind. We are special to Him for some reason. Accepting His love without having to know why is the only way to a joyful and peaceful mind.
I read somewhere the phrase "God does not save us on the installment plan". Jesus sacrafice was enough to pay IN FULL all the payment a Holy God required. The enemy is constantly tempting us to look to ourselves and not to God. We can always trust God to do right in all things.
we cannot trust ourselves.
B
The work of God is to believe upon the name of the Son of God. That is first and foremost and that work is accomplished by God in the heart of the individual through the preaching of the gospel. This is how we are called by grace to believe upon the name of the one whom God has sent. When we respond to that call of God and believe by faith, the work it took to get us to that place of faith has just begun and will continue until the day of redemption of our bodies. When you begin down this road of a 'work based faith' that is shouldered by the believer to secure his eternal redemption you assume that God is not able to keep that believer. Justification is by grace and through faith in the finished work of Christ with nothing added to it. No one can add to justification or to the righteousness of God that is imputed to the believer through faith. For the rest of the believer's life he is under the mighty hand of God and that is a fearful thing. He will either be humble or humbled by the hand of God. If he is proud he will be resisted and if he is humble he will be given grace and exalted.
This has nothing to do with doing any work for God, it is an issue of the heart to get the believer in a place where they can grow in grace and knowledge of Christ. In some cases it may take a lifetime for God to establish their heart in grace because of the flesh, deep seated pride and strongholds that exist in the heart. God usually has his way so that he can present that believer without spot or wrinkle. You and I can not judge what God is doing in the heart through what we see outwardly. Our faith is given unto us that we might have hope and not given to us to judge others and their works. You might say as James did that he will show you his faith by his works (and that is true).... but God will show you His work done in the heart when a man is reduced to nothing but faith in the living God through His exceedingly great and precious promises and that is a 'work of faith'.
This has nothing to do with doing any work for God, it is an issue of the heart to get the believer in a place where they can grow in grace and knowledge of Christ. In some cases it may take a lifetime for God to establish their heart in grace because of the flesh, deep seated pride and strongholds that exist in the heart. God usually has his way so that he can present that believer without spot or wrinkle. You and I can not judge what God is doing in the heart through what we see outwardly. Our faith is given unto us that we might have hope and not given to us to judge others and their works. You might say as James did that he will show you his faith by his works (and that is true).... but God will show you His work done in the heart when a man is reduced to nothing but faith in the living God through His exceedingly great and precious promises and that is a 'work of faith'.
C
Calvinism and the theology of John Calvin are in my opinion very different.
His work "Institutes of Christian Religion" was written for very specific readers i.e. those who were in between the Roman Catholic church and the Protestants.
Calvinism, or some form of it, neglects much of the background.
But that's normal. The same we always do to the letters written by Paul.
His work "Institutes of Christian Religion" was written for very specific readers i.e. those who were in between the Roman Catholic church and the Protestants.
Calvinism, or some form of it, neglects much of the background.
But that's normal. The same we always do to the letters written by Paul.
E
there are some amazing things we can learn about from Christ.
1. He knew who needed him (the drunks and prostitutes, the fisherman and the tax collectors)
2. He knew who did not need him and would not accept him (the LAWyers, or strict followers of the law)
3. He knew peoples hearts (You did not come to learn, you came for a sign, but no sign will be given to you)
4. He knew people would continue to struggle with sin, even after they came to him. But he allowed them to come anyway, and promise never to cast them out.
5. He knew who truly wanted his help. And who were just there because it was the "hip" thing today (I think this represents alot of modern day Chrstianity, and were the people James spoke out against)
1 Thing I do know. and I am not sure what people think this. Is that we have to come to him when we are his enemy (like he came to us when we were his enemy) And he must save us WHILE we are still his enemy. No ne comes to Jesus because they love him, they neither have the capacity to love him, nor the desire to love him. No one can even learn to love him until HE FIRST restores the relationship. Then and only then can they start to learn who he is, and grow the capacity to love him.
1. He knew who needed him (the drunks and prostitutes, the fisherman and the tax collectors)
2. He knew who did not need him and would not accept him (the LAWyers, or strict followers of the law)
3. He knew peoples hearts (You did not come to learn, you came for a sign, but no sign will be given to you)
4. He knew people would continue to struggle with sin, even after they came to him. But he allowed them to come anyway, and promise never to cast them out.
5. He knew who truly wanted his help. And who were just there because it was the "hip" thing today (I think this represents alot of modern day Chrstianity, and were the people James spoke out against)
1 Thing I do know. and I am not sure what people think this. Is that we have to come to him when we are his enemy (like he came to us when we were his enemy) And he must save us WHILE we are still his enemy. No ne comes to Jesus because they love him, they neither have the capacity to love him, nor the desire to love him. No one can even learn to love him until HE FIRST restores the relationship. Then and only then can they start to learn who he is, and grow the capacity to love him.
E
But the questions are for you to answer.
It's hard to get someone saved and remained saved WITHOUT ever doing any kind of works isn't it?
Nothing is too hard for Jesus!
It's hard to get someone saved and remained saved WITHOUT ever doing any kind of works isn't it?
Nothing is too hard for Jesus!
And as far as keeping someone saved, that work is all Gods also. We can not work to keep ourselves saved, let alone someone else saved. that would be an impossible task.
C
Faroukfarouk, this post is not directed at you. I'm just using it as a starting point.
I guess much of the problem is, when one promotes good work, he would considered by some as fleshy, as not spiritual, as boastful. That's not what the Bible says.
The word "work" is taboo in modern Christian circles. The writers below would be considered heretics today.
The Imitation of Christ - Thomas Kempis
Holiness - J C Ryle
The Cost of Discipleship - Dietrich Bonhoeffer
One has to wonder why.
I guess much of the problem is, when one promotes good work, he would considered by some as fleshy, as not spiritual, as boastful. That's not what the Bible says.
The word "work" is taboo in modern Christian circles. The writers below would be considered heretics today.
The Imitation of Christ - Thomas Kempis
Holiness - J C Ryle
The Cost of Discipleship - Dietrich Bonhoeffer
One has to wonder why.