What makes it impossible for a carnal mind to be subject to the law?

[peacefulbeliever]

Hebrew 8:1-4 begins with the ordinances of temple worship.

The blood covenant revolved around temple worship. If the words of God made the covenant, and we say the covenant is changed, then we are saying God's word changes. Is that what you are endorsing that God's word changed? I say God's word is the same and humans broke covenant not God. Henceforth Jesus came to change us. Let's talk about the wine, and wine skins and maybe we can understand one another better. OK?

Matthew 4:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

the ordinances of temple worship - the ordinances of temple worship for Israel. Those ordinances of worship were set up with the Levitical law - correct me if I am wrong.

Jesus Christ is our high priest who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens - 2. a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. 3. For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things. . . . .

Jesus Christ, a minister who has obtained a more excellent ministry by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant which was established upon better promises - oops here subject is changed to covenant.

The word of God is comprised of "letters". Even as I write letters - the subject matter can change right in the middle of the letter or even from one sentence to another. You have to be careful and watch when the subject changes. I am not saying that the chapter has nothing to do with the temple - BUT it is also speaking of the covenant and you are trying to insert the temple in where covenant is definitely being spoken of.

The word of God is comprised of letters. The subject in a letter can change from one paragraph to the next, even one sentence to the next. We have to watch where the subject changes and then even comes back to the previous subject.

 

[RedTent]

I'm trying not to nit-pick everything you say. I'm still not 100% about the way you word things.

Like when you said we are submissive to the words God gave Moses and the Prophets.

I would have said we are submissive to the Lord Jesus Christ and this has helped us to understand the words God gave Moses and the Prophets. Just because being submissive to the Letter is not the same as being submissive to His Spirit.

You see the difference?

Grandpa, you are coming around. Except it isn't submissive at all, it is equal. The spirit and the law say the very same things, but law without spirit is useless, and spirit without reacting to law by what we do amounts to nothing. Equal.

 

[just-me]

the ordinances of temple worship - the ordinances of temple worship for Israel. Those ordinances of worship were set up with the Levitical law - correct me if I am wrong.

Jesus Christ is our high priest who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens - 2. a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. 3. For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things. . . . .

Jesus Christ, a minister who has obtained a more excellent ministry by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant which was established upon better promises - oops here subject is changed to covenant.

The word of God is comprised of "letters". Even as I write letters - the subject matter can change right in the middle of the letter or even from one sentence to another. You have to be careful and watch when the subject changes. I am not saying that the chapter has nothing to do with the temple - BUT it is also speaking of the covenant and you are trying to insert the temple in where covenant is definitely being spoken of.

The word of God is comprised of letters. The subject in a letter can change from one paragraph to the next, even one sentence to the next. We have to watch where the subject changes and then even comes back to the previous subject.

I think John the Baptist was in the line of Aaron the High Priest, or at least a Levite. He prepared the way of the Lord. Have you ever wondered why Moses and Elijah were there on the mount of transfiguration? Jesus is a descendant of Judah also being of the Israelites, and Jew in His case. It is also true that all of Jesus' ministry is Old Testament before His death. I agree that "covenant" is being talked about in Hebrews as we are relating to it. The reason I bring up the temple is that the physical has vanished, not the words of God that are both in the old and the new. If the the old covenant has vanished, then we have to admit that the words of God in those covenants also vanished. I can't go along with anything God has every said vanishes away. I can however go along with the physical temple vanishing. If God's old covenant words vanished along with the old temple, the same as the covenants being broken by the Israelites, these scriptures would be at odds with each other.

Deuteronomy 8:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

Matthew 4:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

John 2:19 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.


Mark 14:58 (KJV)
[SUP]58 [/SUP]We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.

So I believe that the physical temple vanished but not any of God's words that any of the covenants contain.

Hebrews 8:13 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In that he saith, A new "covenant," he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Again "covenant" is an added word that is not in the original text. It make sense to me if it said "Temple" and then it would be much more accurate in comparison to the beginning of the chapter that mentions sacrifices and animals and all that took pace in the temple made by hands. God doesn't reconnoiter any of what He has said in the past and say to Himself "I'll just try again another way." He's much more brilliant than that. The whole point I endorse is that the physical is gone, and the Spiritual is here, and God is Spirit. Our carnal is gone and the Spiritual is here.

Hebrews 8:2-4 (KJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

See the relevance?

 

[homwardbound]

Why is it so hard for you to admit the Ten Commandments are a description of love?

They are, the problem is how they are used? and the same with bottom line the Love of God if have it; the whole Law is filled in Father the only one righteous, that the believer participates in with thanks to Son
I call this smother4ed and covered by Jesus Christ, safe and secure in Jesus unto Father, by Jesus alone presented Holy to Father Col. 1:22

 

[homwardbound]

No. Jesus commanded Him to do His will, and the Pharisees restricted the man by their traditional doctrine that wasn't from the original persuasion of the law. The healed man succumbed to man's law instead of God's law, and by doing that Jesus warned him that he would be in worse shape than before if he continued doing the Pharisees law instead of God's. This is a good lesson fall all of us. The dirty trick was from the Pharisees, not from Jesus.

Mark 3:4-6 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the Pharisees went forth, and straightway took counsel with the Herodians against him, how they might destroy him.

This is because Christ was destroying their use of the Law for their own gain and the Jews were not going to synagogue, rather looking for the Christ to be well in him, so these leaders were in thought of losing their place and not having an income. The flesh it is so amazing in deceiving

What is easier to be fooled or to convince one they have been fooled?
Is not the fight here the same as has been going on since the fall, the flesh wants the lead over God the creator of all.?
So Job security caused the religious leaders to seek to kill Christ

 

[homwardbound]

Are the love commandments New Covenant, or Old Covenant? What I read in the Bible is they are both. Any body agree or disagree with that?

The Love commandments are from the fall, God had Mercy on them and clothed them, do yuo not see Mercy and understand it over the sacrifices, not just animal, Spiritually.
I will have Mercy over sacrifice, go and learn what this means, we are under the Mercy of Father through Son and I personally am thankful in response

 

[homwardbound]

They are both
And they contain the do not commands. So we do not need the do nots. if we follow the does.

But some people seem to need the do nots. Why? I have no clue..

If we focus so much on the do nots. Not only will we be tempted to do the do nots (as paul explained in romans, and we see experienced by a child who is told no by a parent, where the temptation to sin increases) we will not focus on doing the "dos" and we will be held back. And risk being pridefull and arrogant judgmental creatures in the eyes of the world.

I found that when "I" am under the do not's, I am under the curse of my unredeemed flesh, either I get proud and boastful, claiming I am doing or guilty so deep I can't see a way out. The is what under Law did to me, showed me my bondage, like on a roller coaster, up and down, no real peace. I finally gave that up to Father through Son and now see the gift from Father through Son having life new and peace in the Spirit of God, and anyone else see

 

[homwardbound]

You have indicate that you focus on the do not's. I say if we spend all our time doing the do's, we won't have time to do the don't's. Therefore, I see the law as a benefit, I am not condemned by it in the least. So why do we, as believers in Christ, put down the do's of the law if in fact the finite details of love are in the law? Should we not be teaching them rather than negating them by our rhetoric?

So then you do all the do's, and if you do what need do you have for Christ? The post here seems to say you do all the do's.

 

[homwardbound]

Because you said
You and I are clear what we are talking about so why are you saying I left out what you said? Does it make any difference in the conversation or do I have to include what you've said in every single post to be thorough?

The scripture never said if you love your neighbour as yourself you don't need the 10 commandments.

It says that if you love your neighbor as God loved and loves you, the Law is filed in you, is this true or false

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Grandpa, you are coming around. Except it isn't submissive at all, it is equal. The spirit and the law say the very same things, but law without spirit is useless, and spirit without reacting to law by what we do amounts to nothing. Equal.

I disagree.

the spirit does not need the law. The law was already written on our hearts from day 1. before the spirit even entered the equation. (see romans 1)

The spirit needs us to do work, to serve others, to bring people to Christs kingdom, to serve others in the body. and so much more.

he wants us to focus on what he wants us to do for these people. not sit around wondering if we are being submissive to the law. This would stop us from concentrating on the things he needs us to do. which again, I have seen over and over.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I found that when "I" am under the do not's, I am under the curse of my unredeemed flesh, either I get proud and boastful, claiming I am doing or guilty so deep I can't see a way out. The is what under Law did to me, showed me my bondage, like on a roller coaster, up and down, no real peace. I finally gave that up to Father through Son and now see the gift from Father through Son having life new and peace in the Spirit of God, and anyone else see

this is why we look forward to what God has in store for us, and what he wants us to do for others now, and not back to the things which condemns us.

 

[homwardbound]

It wasn't His fault in OT. It's the Israelites fault in general. The Holy Spirit was with them to help c.f. Isaiah 63:10. Not many obeyed wisely. The way was and is always narrow.

It was a matter of belief or unbelief, period and this is still the same to this very day, either one does beleive and comes to enter God's rest since the foundation of this world, or not and continues to try and work out his own salvation in fear and trembling not seeing the whole picture in the mirror. They see the broken mirror on the ground and only pick up pieces and try to make it back whole trying to see through it clearly, but the flesh of self is in the way.
Ask God to show you the whole mirror no broken pieces and see the Love of God that passes all understanding of the flesh, where truth is only revealed in Spirit

 

[homwardbound]

[h=3]Philippians 2:12-13[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[homwardbound]

Further from my last post to you. In studying the feast of tabernacles, it becomes clear to me that the attitude of the people who celebrated this should be the same attitude for the churches today. I think it has some very good illustrations. You might ask if I keep that feast physically. the answer would be no because I don't go out and cut vegetation for the week of the feast. Every branch of foliage used in this feast has spiritual meaning in a very profound way, and the persuasion of the feast is to live our salvation in remembering what God has done for us, giving us the hope in Him for our future. If we are to minister to the lost, as you have said that the law has it's purpose, one needs to know it and use it for the sake of the lost. That's some of loving your neighbor as yourself.

Romans 8:24-28 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

So as it is written Just-me there is:
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
If this is what you are saying then there is no condemnation for you, and from what i read and read the same is for us?

So are you saying we should look into the Spiritual aspects of the Law? I see for me the Spiritual aspects of the Law, the Law showed me my need and so I put that down upholding this truth and turned me over to God to do what God wants to do in me and that is conform me to the death with Son at the cross to die and be dead to self, so that I will see this Spiritual aspect of new life in Father, that Father gave me, by Son and through Son. I am made to love the way God loves in 1 cor.13:4-13, no lonmger trying to as in 1 Cor. 13:1-3

 

[john832]

Did Christ not say that he came to fulfill the Law and Prophets? Did he do this?

Take two styrofoam cups, one in each hand. Fill the one in your right hand with water to the brim. Crush the one in your left hand and throw it away. Which one did you fulfill (fill full)?

Are we by this under new Laws and new Priesthood?

What Laws? This tired argument ignores the context and direct references in Hebrews 7...

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

There is of necessity a change in the Law because of what? A CHANGE IN THE PRIESTHOOD. Why?

Heb 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law[/quote], that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

What is the Commandment here?

Num 18:26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.

And WHO could do this?

Exo 28:1 And take thou unto thee Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office, even Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, Aaron's sons.

The sons of Aaron. Only the sons of Aaron could be Priests...

Heb 7:8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Now let's read on...

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Now what Law are we speaking of here?

Exo 28:1 And take thou unto thee Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office, even Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, Aaron's sons.

Context here is very important. It plainly shows that the Law being spoken of here is the Law concerning the Priesthood and just who could be a Priest...

Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

This Law is about DNA. It is about the sons of Aaron were the only ones who could be a Priest under the Levitical Priesthood, Judah could not.

Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

The word carnal here means...

G4559
σαρκικός
sarkikos
sar-kee-kos'
From G4561; pertaining to flesh, that is, (by extension) bodily, temporal, or (by implication) animal, unregenerate: - carnal, fleshly.

Not an evil command, a fleshly command. What Command that had to tdo wtih flesh (DNA)?

Exo 28:1 And take thou unto thee Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office, even Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, Aaron's sons.

Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

What Commandment? Paul goes on to show...

Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Heb 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Heb 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

The Commandment we have already looked at, the Commandments that says only the sons of Aaron could be Priests. Jesus Christ was not a son of Aaron, He was not even a Levite, He was a Jew and there fore was disqualified from being a Priest under this Commandment. So, because Christ absolutely will NOT VIOLATE His own Laws, the Law was changed BACK TO that of the Melchisidec Priesthood. This is not at all about changing the Ten Commandments and a cursory reading of the chapter plainly shows this.

And this new Priesthood of which tribe is it under? Levite or Judah
Under the Law of Moses are there according to Law ever to have any priest outside of the Levite tribe?

So what is new and what is old in truth or is Christ a maniac and a liar
We are by this new covenant under new law and under new priesthood are we not?

The new Law you speak of here is actually a reversion to the Law that existed PRIOR to Ex 28:1. The Law concerning the Mechisdec Priesthood.

This chapter has NOTHING to do with changing the Ten Commandments.

 

[john832]

I'm trying not to nit-pick everything you say. I'm still not 100% about the way you word things.

Like when you said we are submissive to the words God gave Moses and the Prophets.

I would have said we are submissive to the Lord Jesus Christ and this has helped us to understand the words God gave Moses and the Prophets. Just because being submissive to the Letter is not the same as being submissive to His Spirit.

You see the difference?

Here is a question for you...

Who was it that gave the words to Moses and the Prophets?

 

[homwardbound]

Galatians 3:23-29 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Many misunderstand what a schoolmaster was during Paul's day. They were young men in their late teens who lead the young children to school for safety with the route that was best. When the children were more mature, they would go to school without a leader, and eventually be a leader themselves.

Without this understanding, one can easily misunderstand and say that faith and the law don't mix. On the contrary, when we are mature enough to know the way to school, and also lead others to see the route that needs to be taken that lead us to Christ. Now days it is evident that some are saying that there is another way to get to school and the youngsters have no idea that it isn't the route God laid out before hand. They may never get there.

Jesus was the first schoolmaster, and that's why He said "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." in Matthew 5:17-18 (KJV)

He also said "It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come! It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones." Luke 17:1-2 (KJV)

Please tell me this? Are you dead to flesh and alive to God in the Spirit of God? Or are you mixing flesh and Spirit of God?

 

[homwardbound]

The law was beneficial to me BEFORE I came to Christ.

It has no benefit to me now. If I focus on the law. I will (as grandpa rightly said) do nothing but praise myself for being a good little Christian (which would be an outright lie) Not be focused on doing the things God wants me to do (serve others) or give up trying to work so hard. Because I realise the truth. I just can;t keep the law, And that is required by God. so why bother.

I have done all three of these things, And seen so many other people do these things in my 20 years at a legalistic church. No growth No life. No happiness. Just fear (people were so afraid to even admit their struggles. afrad they would get judged which they would in that church)

Sorry, I must side with Grandpa on this one. I have experienced being under subjection to the law. There is no life in that. And I will never go back to that again.

That I see and have been there too, thanks EG

 

[just-me]

Please tell me this? Are you dead to flesh and alive to God in the Spirit of God? Or are you mixing flesh and Spirit of God?

Yes to you first question, and no to your second.

 

[homwardbound]

So after your salvation there are parts of God's word that no longer apply to you in your life. Sorry to hear that. We have come to an impasse, and will not agree at this point. You are welcome to pray that I negate some of God's word as you do, but I don't think that will work for me. What the people did to you at the church you mentioned I wouldn't agree with either. They will pay. Like I said, being under the law is not subject to it.

under the law 5259=5259. hupo hoop-o' a primary preposition; under, i.e. (with the genitive case) of place (beneath), or with verbs (the agency or means, through); (with the accusative case) of place (whither (underneath) or where (below) or time (when (at)):--among, by, from, in, of, under, with. In the comparative, it retains the same general applications, especially of inferior position or condition, and specially, covertly or moderately.

under the law of Christ 1772=1772. ennomos en'-nom-os from 1722 and 3551; (subjectively) legal, or (objectively) subject to:--lawful, under law.

subject to the law 5293=5293. hupotasso hoop-ot-as'-so from 5259 and 5021; to subordinate; reflexively, to obey:--be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.

I submit to the law of God because I am a believer, and in so doing I am under the law of Christ. Before that I was beneath the law of both. I am raise up through Christ.

Luke 7:22-23 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

I am not sure you see the agreement we are subject to Law, the new Laws of Love to all
[h=3]Hebrews 7:11-12[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)


[SUP]11 [/SUP]If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? [SUP]12[/SUP]For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.