Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[p_rehbein]

Go cut off your hand or rip out your eye. Oh sorry, Jesus was only kidding.

.........seriously?.............. either you do not understand Scripture........ or, your just being silly...........

 

[chubbena]

You will fall in error if you only read the red letters in your bible and assume everything Jesus said pertains to you. The young rich ruler asked a question under Law. Jesus asked him a question under Law and gave him an answer based upon Law. "What must I DO?" Jesus sees he has a works mentality and the Law hasn't put him in his place, that is that he has a need for a savior. So what does Jesus do? He goes right to the heart of the matter. "Sell everything that you have and follow me." The young rich ruler couldn't do it, and in doing so, it shows that he has just broke the 1st Commandment. Thou shalt have no other gods before me He just committed idolatry.

You have to rightly divide the Word and you have to look at the Word of God through the lense of the cross. It changes everything. Not everything Jesus said was for the NT believer, as it was a time of transition between covenants. It was a time when Christ was pointing to what He would do (die on the cross) and where they were then, at that point in time (under law and not grace). So, when he addresses people with certain statement you must look at it through the lense of the cross and also in context. When Jesus told him what to do by the Law of loving God and thy neighbor the rich young man said he did it! So, Christ shows how he infact hasn't and has fallen short of the perfect standard God requires.

In other words, the first century believers, who were so unfortunate without the printed KJV, NIV or any of our favorite version of the Bible with Paul's letter, could not possibly understand the gospel and that what He, the Word, said was nullified on the cross and by Paul.
In other words we should ignore the book of James like straw.
Going back to the rich young man, He said "if you want to enter life, obey the commandments." Is this nullified?
To the expert of the law, He said "do this and you will live?" Did He point him to a dark alley?

 

[SeaBass]

Works are the evidence of our faith, but the works themselves do not save us. It isn't possible to have the kind of faith that saves without having works of faith along with it, because that kind of faith naturally produces good works as naturally as a tree bears a leaf. So when the Bible makes statements to the effect that a person without works is works than an infidel, it isn't saying the works would have saved him and he is lost because he doesn't have them, but it is saying that having no works proves he doesn't have the kind of faith that saves.

Hi,

God saves, but the question is...who does God save and why?

Heb 5:9, CHrist is the author of savlation unto all them that obey Him.

Since these obedient works are necessary to savlation in is in that sesne James can say by works a man is justified.


The issue with 1 Tim 5:8 is that God has before ordained Christians walk in good works, Eph 2:10 and providing for one's own house is a good work, a NECESSARY good work to keep the Christian saved for if he does not work to provide for his own house, he has denied the faith and is worse than an infidel. A Christian cannot be lazy, not provide for his own house and still expect to be saved. So in that sense, that good work of providing maintains the Christian's salvation.

 

[p_rehbein]

I simply do not understand how or why people believe they can "earn" their way into Heaven...........sigh........

Jesus did say...........If you love me, you would obey me............but DO YOU? IN ALL HE SAID?

 

[BenFTW]

Hi,

God saves, but the question is...who does God save and why?

Heb 5:9, CHrist is the author of savlation unto all them that obey Him.

Since these obedient works are necessary to savlation in is in that sesne James can say by works a man is justified.


The issue with 1 Tim 5:8 is that God has before ordained Christians walk in good works, Eph 2:10 and providing for one's own house is a good work, a NECESSARY good work to keep the Christian saved for if he does not work to provide for his own house, he has denied the faith and is worse than an infidel. A Christian cannot be lazy, not provide for his own house and still expect to be saved. So in that sense, that good work of providing maintains the Christian's salvation.

You seem to have ignored my post of "The Simplicity Of the Gospel." Is there a reason or is it because it clearly outlines why your logic is flawed? Works do not maintain a Christian's salvation.

 

[SeaBass]

"God is a debtor to no one". If we decide to work for our salvation, He is not obliged to do anything. Access to God is by one way only. Jesus said "I am the Way the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by Me"

Then when we have recieved Jesus as our Saviour, and begin to seek to imitate Him
It's essencial to know who we are in Christ before we can make any progress for God. To trust that He knows us well enough to save once for all our lives., Sin is no longer imputed to us., it was taken away and nailed to the cross. Many chrisitans do the dance of being righteous but then not being righteous.,then getting righteous again, then dropping the ball and not being righteous. Soon the dance is exhausting. We are not nor will we ever be righteous enough to do a good work worthy of salvation. Also we will never be good enough to do a work of sanctification in our lives. lol The sanctification process is also done by grace through faith in Him as we allow Him to love us through life. Trust Him to take care of us and bring us through to the end. He is the Author and Finisher of our faith. amen!

When we recieve Jesus Christ, we become the righteousness of God in Christ. We become the righteousness OF GOD ...IN CHRIST. doesn't get any better than that.
It even sounds too awsome to say.

Grace is getting everything while putting IN nothing ourselves. We pay nothing, Jesus paid all. He received our sin...we recieve HIS righteousness. It is a spiritual truth that will not make sense to a human mind unless God opens your understanding to free grace. Grace cannot be earned or merited by impressing God with our humble goodness. There is nothing worthy of merit in us. That is the very reason it took Jesus., the Son of God to come. Where sin abounds GRACE much more abounded.
That is the Gospel message...the Good News!!! That is why we can be so joyful in this life now and in the next life. We can live in joyful anticipation of what He will do as we consider what He has done and IS doing now in us. That is the difference between successful living and defeated living for the christian.

I do not see anyone here arguing they can work for and earn salvation. That is the typical strawman arguement offered up by faith only proponents.


Let's suppose out of my good grace I am giving you a brand new car, you did nothing at all to earn it, I am GIVING it to you absolutely FREE. To get this absolutely free car you must come to my office to get the title and keys then go across the street to the car dealership to get the car. Your WORK in coming to my office to get the title and keys and then going to get the car do not earn you that car at all, they are just necessary CONDITIONS attached to the free gift.

So I offer you up front the car for free. You now have a couple of choices.

1) you can say "no thanks I do not want your free gift", and in that case you will not get it.

2) you can say "yes I want it", then that means you are also accepting the conditions I attached to MY FREE gift to you.

You cannot say you want the car but do not want to come to my office or the dealership, that is, you cannot say you want the free car and REJECT my condtions. Rejecting my conditions is the same as rejecting my free gift. You cannot make demands on the gift-giver that I get rid of the conditions or change the conditions to accomodate you. You cannot say that you want the car but you do not want to do the work of going to the office and the car dealer, but instead you want to sit and do nothing and have me bring you the keys, title and car to you. This is what faith only does, it makes demands on God the Gift Giver to change His conditions, that God does everything while man sits and does nothing. God never made "doing nothing" a condition on His free gift of salvation but made belief, repentance, confession and baptism the NECESSARY conditions upon His free gift.

So you accept my free gift of the car and do the works of coming to my office getting the title and keys and then go to the car dealer and get the car. You are driving your new car around and meet a friend who asks you "where did you get the car?"

You say "I earned it"

Even though you did the works of coming to my office to get the title and keys and went to the dealer to get the car, did you tell your friend the truth when you told her you earned that car I gave you for free?

 

[SeaBass]

Works are not evidence of our faith. They are a witness to people judging whether we are saved. They have no place in salvation. They are a witness to the one determining whether we are of the faith, but have no actual reflection upon that person's faith. "Works are the evidence of our faith" is not an accurate statement in totality because someone people take time to bear fruit. Not everyone changes immediately. Hence, "babes in Christ." One must be careful when saying such a thing because people like SeaBass take it out of context and take it to the extreme.

So can a Christian NOT have those works that are witness to others that he is save.......and yet still be saved?

 

[SeaBass]

You seem to have ignored my post of "The Simplicity Of the Gospel." Is there a reason or is it because it clearly outlines why your logic is flawed? Works do not maintain a Christian's salvation.

So you are saying Gods preordained will of Eph 2:10 that Christians walk in good works can be changed, undone, thwarted?
That Christians do not have to walk in the light but still have their sins cleansed by the blood of Christ anyway, 1 Jn 1:7?

 

[BenFTW]

So can a Christian NOT have those works that are witness to others that he is save.......and yet still be saved?

I don't need to prove I am saved in order to be saved. That was the point, but it flew over your head because of your works mentality. Again, stop ignoring my post on The Simplicty of The Gospel and answer it. It refutes your doctrine of works completely.

 

[BenFTW]

The SIMPLICITY of The GOSPEL
John 3:14-16

New King James Version (NKJV)
​

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

That's simple, that's straightforward, that's grace. That's the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

What of works?

Ephesians 2:8-10

New King James Version (NKJV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

​

We have now established that works do not attribute, whatsoever, to your salvation( grace alone, through faith in Jesus Christ).

You now wonder, "What place do works have after I've been saved?"

They are not works you strive to do. You WALK IN the works the Lord has prepared beforehand. You do not do them, you bear fruit, you dont strain to do them. They follow as a natural consequence of being born-again and the fruits of the Spirit (ie; Love). You dont go out of your way doing works, they are a natural consequence of who you now are. Dont put the cart before the horse. Works are a fruit of salvation, not the root of salvation.
They also determine your reward when we are judged on the mercy seat of Jesus Christ (not for salvation).

Do works maintain my salvation then, if they are a natural consequence of my salvation?

No. No more than a child is a child to a Father and as a son he will obey his father, but his obedience does not determine his sonship. He is a son regardless of his conduct. Its in the blood!(Jesus' blood, get the analogy?)

You have tried to complicate that which is simple. I fear that out of your complication you will lead people astray, such as Pres19. I will point you to the words of Paul, as an evangelist, he knew what he was preaching to people for the salvation of their souls.


2 Corinthians 11:3

New King James Version (NKJV)

3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

By grace, saved through faith in Jesus Christ. (Faith alone, no works)


Bonus, just for you SeaBass (to show you the absurdity of what you preach)

If someone accepts Christ as their Lord and Savior and is presented an opportunity to do one good work, and he doesn't do it, will he be saved? If you answer, "No" then what you are saying, is that we must be perfect. If that be the case, was not Jesus sent because we fall short of the glory of God? Is it not because we are imperfect that we needed Jesus' perfect self to die on the cross on our behalf, for God requires perfection(be perfect as my Father in heaven is perfect)?
The work presented itself, but Joe didn't walk in the work. But let me tell you something. Thank God Jesus did the work.

"It is finished!"

Don't complicate the Gospel. Its quite simple. So simple that Paul feared people would be led astray. The grace that makes Christianity what it is, makes Christianity unique as a religion. It isn't man pleasing. It isn't God pleasing, for God does the work, we don't do something to please him. We rest in the One He was well pleased. That is Jesus Christ.

How simple is the Gospel? John 3:16.




Extended bonus!

By the very definition of being a born-again Christian, we will have the fruits of the Holy Spirit and we have a regenerated spirit. Hence, such things will lead to good works in our life time. We aren't seeking after these works, they are a necessary out-flow of who we now are. It isn't a work, no more than an apple tree needs to TRY and produce apples. It just happens. You want to say that these works maintain their salvation, or the works show that it is not faith alone, but what you fail to realize is that the works cannot save, did not save, and have no power to save. If you have all the best most kind loving works in the world and you don't have Christ, you don't have anything pertaining to eternal life.

A. Faith in Jesus Christ leads to salvation
B. Faith leads to (possible) works
c. Therefore works are necessary for salvation. (incorrect)

That is your argument, but if that is the case, then you can't move past premise A, without first addressing works. Your argument collapses on itself, because that would mean you are arguing for works based salvation. Which, as has been clearly shown, is not biblical.

Keep it Simple (I want to add the next "S" but I won't)









​

There you go SeaBass, because you missed it. Scroll up and read.

 

[SeaBass]

I simply do not understand how or why people believe they can "earn" their way into Heaven...........sigh........

Jesus did say...........If you love me, you would obey me............but DO YOU? IN ALL HE SAID?

Here that strawman is again. No one here that I have seen have said they are working to earn salvation.


Jn 6:27 "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

Jeus Himself plainly said to LABOUR, LABOUR for everlasting life which He GIVES. HE gives it so it is free but you must LABOUR for it. So evidently your LABOURING does not earn it for Christ GIVES it for free. So your labour is a condition attached to Christ's free gift of everlasting life and you labour cannot in anyway earn it.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Yes we must strive to be perfect, but will we ever be perfect while in the flesh ? No we will not, there have been some on here who believe you have earn your way into heaven, or that after being saved you will never sin again is another one I have heard. That is all false teaching, cause the bible clearly says you can fall away, but then can repent and come back. Also Paul states that even he does things he should not do. But the ones I have brought that up to about Paul try to claim one of two things. That he is talking about before he was saved, or that he is a false teacher ( Both wrong assertions ).

 

[SeaBass]

There you go SeaBass, because you missed it. Scroll up and read.

Could one bitten by a serpent "do nothing" and be healed? Or must he go to look upon the serpent to be healed?

Mt 11:28 "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

Jn 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

Man must come to Jesus or just sit and do nothing?


-----------------------------


In Eph 2:89, as I have said many times, "not of works" here refers to works of merit not doing obedient works. Faith is a work. So did Paul first tell the Ephesians they were saved by the work of faith, then turn right around and contradict himself by telling them they were not saved by any works at all? No. So "not of works" does NOT exclude ALL works such as the work of faith but excludes works of merits one could boast about.

Paul NEVER excluded obedient works from salvation:

Rom 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"


You serve either one of two masters. You serve either:

1) sin unto death

or

2) obedience unto righteousness


I can say I serve master #2. Unfortunately for you, your 'faith only' theology has ruled out #2 for you leaving you with a very bad master to serve.

---------------------------

I see no "faith only" in 2 Cor 11:3.

-------------------------

As far as your bonus question, in Matt 25 Jesus is speaking about His disciples and them helping one another:


[SUP]35 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
[SUP]39 [/SUP]Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[SUP]42 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
[SUP]43 [/SUP]I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Nowhere ever did Paul exclude obedient works from salvation.

 

[SeaBass]

I don't need to prove I am saved in order to be saved. That was the point, but it flew over your head because of your works mentality. Again, stop ignoring my post on The Simplicty of The Gospel and answer it. It refutes your doctrine of works completely.

You posted "Works are not evidence of our faith. They are a witness to people judging whether we are saved".

So these works that are a witness to other people that we are saved are not really necessary?

 

[Alligator]

I simply do not understand how or why people believe they can "earn" their way into Heaven...........sigh........

Jesus did say...........If you love me, you would obey me............but DO YOU? IN ALL HE SAID?

WHO BELIEVES THIS?? Name names. I don't t believe it, nor does anyone else on this board that I know.

 

[BenFTW]

Could one bitten by a serpent "do nothing" and be healed? Or must he go to look upon the serpent to be healed?

Mt 11:28 "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

Jn 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

Man must come to Jesus or just sit and do nothing?


-----------------------------


In Eph 2:89, as I have said many times, "not of works" here refers to works of merit not doing obedient works. Faith is a work. So did Paul first tell the Ephesians they were saved by the work of faith, then turn right around and contradict himself by telling them they were not saved by any works at all? No. So "not of works" does NOT exclude ALL works such as the work of faith but excludes works of merits one could boast about.

Paul NEVER excluded obedient works from salvation:

Rom 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"


You serve either one of two masters. You serve either:

1) sin unto death

or

2) obedience unto righteousness


I can say I serve master #2. Unfortunately for you, your 'faith only' theology has ruled out #2 for you leaving you with a very bad master to serve.

---------------------------

I see no "faith only" in 2 Cor 11:3.

-------------------------

As far as your bonus question, in Matt 25 Jesus is speaking about His disciples and them helping one another:


[SUP]35 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
[SUP]39 [/SUP]Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[SUP]42 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
[SUP]43 [/SUP]I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Nowhere ever did Paul exclude obedient works from salvation.

Just, "No." It just goes way over your head. You can't seem to get it.

SeaBass let me give you another analogy on top of my previous ones that refute you.

I own a business and I give it to you. As someone who owns the business you will be working in the business. However, if you never go into work, do you still own the business? The answer is "Yes." You would say, "So if I never do the work, do I own the business?" To which the answer is, "Yes."

Not a good enough analogy? Let me think of another.

I give you a car and hand you the keys. Its a gift, it is now yours. You upon the first of the month of next month receive a bill however. Its for a loan payment from the bank, so that the car could be purchased. Now, you have this new nice car, this gift, but you have to pay it off. Is it really a free gift if you have to work to keep it? Wasn't really all that it was cracked up to be, if you have to work for it? The car really isn't yours, not until you fully work to pay it off.

That is how you are treating the Gospel. Jesus says, "I died on the cross for you, all you need to do is believe and you have eternal life."(a free gift, in so much as you did nothing to receive it) So, you confess Jesus Christ. Now, as a Christian you are told that you must do good works to maintain salvation. So you go back to Jesus and say, "Hey! I thought this was a free gift? I'm working for it!" By saying that works are necessary for salvation, you are calling Jesus a liar.

Works are a necessary out-flow of who you now are(a Christian), just as an apple tree necessarily produces apples, as that is what it is. An apple tree. To argue that works are necessary for salvation is a categorization error. Thats like saying apples are necessary for an apple tree to be considered an apple tree. If the tree doesn't bear the apples, it is still an apple tree, its just to the outside world it isn't witnessing itself as an apple tree.

Your argument is silly and illogical, also arbitrary.

These analogies might not be the best, as I was just pondering them, but regardless you can't get past the fact of my last point in The Simplicity of The Gospel.

A. Faith in Jesus Christ leads to salvation
B. Salvation leads to (possible) works
c. Therefore works are necessary for salvation. (incorrect)

That is your argument, but if that is the case, then you can't move past premise A, without first addressing works.
​

There is no way of working around it, the argument fails as C negates what has been said in A. So start over, try again. Your argument doesnt work.

 

[SeaBass]

Yes we must strive to be perfect, but will we ever be perfect while in the flesh ? No we will not, there have been some on here who believe you have earn your way into heaven, or that after being saved you will never sin again is another one I have heard. That is all false teaching, cause the bible clearly says you can fall away, but then can repent and come back. Also Paul states that even he does things he should not do. But the ones I have brought that up to about Paul try to claim one of two things. That he is talking about before he was saved, or that he is a false teacher ( Both wrong assertions ).

The issue I am raising in this thread is can the Christian NOT strive to be perfect yet still expect to be saved?

I have not yet seen a single person on this thread who has said they are trying to earn salvation. Please see my post #286, did she earn the car?

You post "That is all false teaching, cause the bible clearly says you can fall away, but then can repent and come back"


I agree with this!!!

But again, the issue I am raising here can the Christian NOT do the work of repentnace and still be saved?

[Remember that the "faith only" proponents on here are saying he can be saved without the work of repentance, be saved while impenitent. If he did the work of repentance he is trying to EARN his salvation]

 

[jag1977]

I am he who believes not who this not believe

 

[SeaBass]

If you don't work,and i'm don't mean just a j o b but good kindom work,like spiritual work like a sincere smile and genuine concern and care for your fellowman,If you don't have a desire to do this kind of kingdom work then i don't think that was salvation in heart but in word.

In other words if the salvation was true,you will work.

So you agree that it is not possible for a man to be saved while NEVER do ANY TYPE of work at all in his entire life.

 

[SeaBass]

Go cut off your hand or rip out your eye. Oh sorry, Jesus was only kidding.

Mt 18:9 "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."

Jesus was using hyperbole. One can pluck his eye out and still end up in hell fire for plucking the eye out is no guarantee for salvation.