Works Determine Whether you go to Heaven or Hell
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That is an interesting argument. Then can you please explain these Bible quotes:
James 2:14-17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:26
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
2 Timothy 3:17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Those quotes claim that good works prove your faith. Can you please explain why they are not true if your perspective is correct? Also can you explain these following verses:
Titus 1:16
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
James 4:17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
They talk about how not doing good works is denying God. So can you explain how your perspective is correct and prove these Bible verses wrong?
James 2:14-17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:26
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
2 Timothy 3:17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Those quotes claim that good works prove your faith. Can you please explain why they are not true if your perspective is correct? Also can you explain these following verses:
Titus 1:16
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
James 4:17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
They talk about how not doing good works is denying God. So can you explain how your perspective is correct and prove these Bible verses wrong?
I get you now, and I wouldn't say faith + works to prove it are required since there are people who get saved and they don't even have time to show the fruits because they did it in a hospital bed for example, so I would say only faith in Jesus as our savior but I totally get what you said 
James 4:17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Or you can read the other long quotes like Matthew 25:31-46. They are saying that when the opportunity arrises to help someone, and you do not do it, that that in itself is a sin. Good works attribute to your faith. If you have no chance to do Good works, then it isnt committing sin. I hope that answers your perspective
But yes Good works is a part of faith. Im not saying Faith + Works. Here Is what im saying:
Good works + Belief in God = Your faith.
I'll post a few quotes below that show that just for your to read:
James 2:14-17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:26
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
2 Timothy 3:17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Those verses show how works attribute to your faith. I hope that explains everything for ya now
It is by grace alone, faith and works come through grace, they are evidence that you have received God's grace. Works do not determine your eternal destiny, the grace of God determines your eternal destiny. I do not need to read your entire post to know it is by grace alone that I am saved. I have done nothing to gain my salvation. Nothing!!
I get you now, and I wouldn't say faith + works to prove it are required since there are people who get saved and they don't even have time to show the fruits because they did it in a hospital bed for example, so I would say only faith in Jesus as our savior but I totally get what you said
James is speaking of one who professes God (God is one, but the devils believe that) but does not possess saving faith, he has not solely trusted the saving work of Jesus for his sin neither does he have the Spirit. James when referring to good works, it is not works from our effort but actually fruit in our lives brought forth from true faith. When Paul speaks of us not being justified by works he is speaking of our self effort.
So James 'works'=fruit. Paul, 'works'=self effort.
So James 'works'=fruit. Paul, 'works'=self effort.
I will shorten everything for you to make it simple. First off, read this:
Ephesians 2:8-9
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
This says "For by grace are ye saved through faith;"
That says that you receive grace through faith. Now, read these Bible verses that show how works are a testament to your faith:
Ephesians 2:8-9
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Those show how good works are a part of faith. Lastly, you say you have done nothing, you are half right. If you read Ephesians it says that, but it does not mean what you are interpreting.
With the info above, you can understand it means that not by your own accomplishment. Meaning, if say 100 pounds of works were required and you only achieved 90 pounds, you'd go to hell. But if you worked 110 pounds you'd enter heaven. That is what Ephesians is saying. It isnt your own amount of works that got you into Heaven. however, doing good works in general is the testament of your faith.
Ephesians 2:8-9
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
This says "For by grace are ye saved through faith;"
That says that you receive grace through faith. Now, read these Bible verses that show how works are a testament to your faith:
Ephesians 2:8-9
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Those show how good works are a part of faith. Lastly, you say you have done nothing, you are half right. If you read Ephesians it says that, but it does not mean what you are interpreting.
With the info above, you can understand it means that not by your own accomplishment. Meaning, if say 100 pounds of works were required and you only achieved 90 pounds, you'd go to hell. But if you worked 110 pounds you'd enter heaven. That is what Ephesians is saying. It isnt your own amount of works that got you into Heaven. however, doing good works in general is the testament of your faith.
If that is true, then why does in Titus say the same thing as James? And Paul himself wrote Titus...
Also you didnt provide Bible quotes to prove your point. You only gave me a perspective without evidence, please support your perspective with proof. You also did not explain why Jesus said to people that if they dont do good works the consequences, or you did not explain these quotes either:
James 2:14-17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:26
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
2 Timothy 3:17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Those are quotes that are proving that works are a testament of faith. Can you prove your point with Bible quotes please?
H
We need to say exactly what the passage says and nothing less or more. Dollow pppppppPaul logic in eph. 2
We need to be careful to only say what the passage says. Please follow the steps in the salvation process of God in Eph. 2:1-10. God make us alive, we were dead in sin, We lived just as every dead sinner lives , following the Devil, We were under the wrath of God. BUT GOD, rich in mercy and love, made us alive by the same power that raised Jesus from the dead, by God's eternal love and resurrection power, being BORN of GOD into His family with his likeness. by GRACE we were saved. (NOT by faith or works) And we were ALSO, imputed a right standing in Christ, fully justified. God will show, in the future, His mercy and power in saving us. We were saved by Grace , and our faith is a gift from God. We were not saved by good works. We can not boast in our good works, because we can not do good works, acceptable to God, without God making us good, holy persons by His power and love. This was God's purpose from eternity past., to fill the new Heavens and the new earth with holy people, just like His earthly SON, Jesus. To God be the glory. Yes, our good works are required for salvation; because by grace we are given faith and a new heart to do good deeds. See also the argurment in John 3:1-21,36 : Only Born again, good persons believe in Jesus to eternal life. All other believers will be lost. Love to all, Hoffco
We need to be careful to only say what the passage says. Please follow the steps in the salvation process of God in Eph. 2:1-10. God make us alive, we were dead in sin, We lived just as every dead sinner lives , following the Devil, We were under the wrath of God. BUT GOD, rich in mercy and love, made us alive by the same power that raised Jesus from the dead, by God's eternal love and resurrection power, being BORN of GOD into His family with his likeness. by GRACE we were saved. (NOT by faith or works) And we were ALSO, imputed a right standing in Christ, fully justified. God will show, in the future, His mercy and power in saving us. We were saved by Grace , and our faith is a gift from God. We were not saved by good works. We can not boast in our good works, because we can not do good works, acceptable to God, without God making us good, holy persons by His power and love. This was God's purpose from eternity past., to fill the new Heavens and the new earth with holy people, just like His earthly SON, Jesus. To God be the glory. Yes, our good works are required for salvation; because by grace we are given faith and a new heart to do good deeds. See also the argurment in John 3:1-21,36 : Only Born again, good persons believe in Jesus to eternal life. All other believers will be lost. Love to all, Hoffco
To start I would like to first post Ephesians 2:1-10, then adress the parts I bolded from your statement.
[h=3]Ephesians 2:1-10[/h]King James Version (KJV)
2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
I bolded Key points I will refer to in the Bible quote.
The first point I would like to address is this quote "We need to be careful to only say what the passage says."
Keep that in mind as I go through what I am going to say. You said it yourself, and I 100% agree with you.
Here is the second quote "by GRACE we were saved. (NOT by faith or works) And we were ALSO, imputed a right standing in Christ, fully justified."
This is in a way true, but you are misunderstanding what it says. Re-read 6-8. you make it seem that Grace was given to a select few. Or, you can say we all have Grace and we all go to Heaven. If that was true, then that makes things in Revelation false. It clearly says in verse 8 that "For by grace are ye saved through faith" through faith. Let me emphasize that, you receive grace through faith. Therefore you saying not by faith or works is false.
Third quote "We were saved by Grace , and our faith is a gift from God. We were not saved by good works. We can not boast in our good works, because we can not do good works, acceptable to God, without God making us good, holy persons by His power and love."
Now as Ephesians said as I quoted above, Grace is received through faith. Let me quote the Bible quotes that show that works determine your faith. If works determine your faith, and we receive grace through faith, then works decide if we go to Heaven or Hell. Read please:
James 2:14-17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:26
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
2 Timothy 3:17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
To address the last quote "Yes, our good works are required for salvation; because by grace we are given faith and a new heart to do good deeds."
This contradicts your previous statements, as well as the second part being incorrect. As Ephesiands 2:8 says, it is through faith we receive grace. Not through grace we receive faith. Read the Bible quote. You also say good works here are required for salvation yet earlier you say they are not.
Let me remind you what the Bible quotes before I posted mean, and reiterate my point. The previous points show how good works are a testament to your faith. They define your faith. If you read this quotes it shows that even more clearly:
Titus 1:16
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
James 4:17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
That shows how people claim to believe in God, but deny him in works. Works attribute to your faith. And as Ephesiands 2:8 states, we receive grace through faith.
I hope that clears everything up for you
[h=3]Ephesians 2:1-10[/h]King James Version (KJV)
2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
I bolded Key points I will refer to in the Bible quote.
The first point I would like to address is this quote "We need to be careful to only say what the passage says."
Keep that in mind as I go through what I am going to say. You said it yourself, and I 100% agree with you.
Here is the second quote "by GRACE we were saved. (NOT by faith or works) And we were ALSO, imputed a right standing in Christ, fully justified."
This is in a way true, but you are misunderstanding what it says. Re-read 6-8. you make it seem that Grace was given to a select few. Or, you can say we all have Grace and we all go to Heaven. If that was true, then that makes things in Revelation false. It clearly says in verse 8 that "For by grace are ye saved through faith" through faith. Let me emphasize that, you receive grace through faith. Therefore you saying not by faith or works is false.
Third quote "We were saved by Grace , and our faith is a gift from God. We were not saved by good works. We can not boast in our good works, because we can not do good works, acceptable to God, without God making us good, holy persons by His power and love."
Now as Ephesians said as I quoted above, Grace is received through faith. Let me quote the Bible quotes that show that works determine your faith. If works determine your faith, and we receive grace through faith, then works decide if we go to Heaven or Hell. Read please:
James 2:14-17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:26
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
2 Timothy 3:17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
To address the last quote "Yes, our good works are required for salvation; because by grace we are given faith and a new heart to do good deeds."
This contradicts your previous statements, as well as the second part being incorrect. As Ephesiands 2:8 says, it is through faith we receive grace. Not through grace we receive faith. Read the Bible quote. You also say good works here are required for salvation yet earlier you say they are not.
Let me remind you what the Bible quotes before I posted mean, and reiterate my point. The previous points show how good works are a testament to your faith. They define your faith. If you read this quotes it shows that even more clearly:
Titus 1:16
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
James 4:17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
That shows how people claim to believe in God, but deny him in works. Works attribute to your faith. And as Ephesiands 2:8 states, we receive grace through faith.
I hope that clears everything up for you
To start I would like to first post Ephesians 2:1-10, then adress the parts I bolded from your statement.
Ephesians 2:1-10
King James Version (KJV)
2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
I bolded Key points I will refer to in the Bible quote.
The first point I would like to address is this quote "We need to be careful to only say what the passage says."
Keep that in mind as I go through what I am going to say. You said it yourself, and I 100% agree with you.
Here is the second quote "by GRACE we were saved. (NOT by faith or works) And we were ALSO, imputed a right standing in Christ, fully justified."
This is in a way true, but you are misunderstanding what it says. Re-read 6-8. you make it seem that Grace was given to a select few. Or, you can say we all have Grace and we all go to Heaven. If that was true, then that makes things in Revelation false. It clearly says in verse 8 that "For by grace are ye saved through faith" through faith. Let me emphasize that, you receive grace through faith. Therefore you saying not by faith or works is false.
Third quote "We were saved by Grace , and our faith is a gift from God. We were not saved by good works. We can not boast in our good works, because we can not do good works, acceptable to God, without God making us good, holy persons by His power and love."
Now as Ephesians said as I quoted above, Grace is received through faith. Let me quote the Bible quotes that show that works determine your faith. If works determine your faith, and we receive grace through faith, then works decide if we go to Heaven or Hell. Read please:
James 2:14-17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:26
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
2 Timothy 3:17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
To address the last quote "Yes, our good works are required for salvation; because by grace we are given faith and a new heart to do good deeds."
This contradicts your previous statements, as well as the second part being incorrect. As Ephesiands 2:8 says, it is through faith we receive grace. Not through grace we receive faith. Read the Bible quote. You also say good works here are required for salvation yet earlier you say they are not.
Let me remind you what the Bible quotes before I posted mean, and reiterate my point. The previous points show how good works are a testament to your faith. They define your faith. If you read this quotes it shows that even more clearly:
Titus 1:16
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
James 4:17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
That shows how people claim to believe in God, but deny him in works. Works attribute to your faith. And as Ephesiands 2:8 states, we receive grace through faith.
I hope that clears everything up for you
Ephesians 2:1-10
King James Version (KJV)
2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
I bolded Key points I will refer to in the Bible quote.
The first point I would like to address is this quote "We need to be careful to only say what the passage says."
Keep that in mind as I go through what I am going to say. You said it yourself, and I 100% agree with you.
Here is the second quote "by GRACE we were saved. (NOT by faith or works) And we were ALSO, imputed a right standing in Christ, fully justified."
This is in a way true, but you are misunderstanding what it says. Re-read 6-8. you make it seem that Grace was given to a select few. Or, you can say we all have Grace and we all go to Heaven. If that was true, then that makes things in Revelation false. It clearly says in verse 8 that "For by grace are ye saved through faith" through faith. Let me emphasize that, you receive grace through faith. Therefore you saying not by faith or works is false.
Third quote "We were saved by Grace , and our faith is a gift from God. We were not saved by good works. We can not boast in our good works, because we can not do good works, acceptable to God, without God making us good, holy persons by His power and love."
Now as Ephesians said as I quoted above, Grace is received through faith. Let me quote the Bible quotes that show that works determine your faith. If works determine your faith, and we receive grace through faith, then works decide if we go to Heaven or Hell. Read please:
James 2:14-17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:26
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
2 Timothy 3:17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
To address the last quote "Yes, our good works are required for salvation; because by grace we are given faith and a new heart to do good deeds."
This contradicts your previous statements, as well as the second part being incorrect. As Ephesiands 2:8 says, it is through faith we receive grace. Not through grace we receive faith. Read the Bible quote. You also say good works here are required for salvation yet earlier you say they are not.
Let me remind you what the Bible quotes before I posted mean, and reiterate my point. The previous points show how good works are a testament to your faith. They define your faith. If you read this quotes it shows that even more clearly:
Titus 1:16
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
James 4:17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
That shows how people claim to believe in God, but deny him in works. Works attribute to your faith. And as Ephesiands 2:8 states, we receive grace through faith.
I hope that clears everything up for you
You say im not listening, I showed you many Bible quotes to prove my perspective. You have claimed in Romans it proves you right. Instead of just claiming that, why dont you just post the Bible quotes and prove your perspective?
Anyone can claim to be right, but without evidence it is just a claim. I have shown various Bible quotes from many different books in the Bible. You have yet to prove them wrong. Please explain how I am the one who is not listening or is in the wrong?
H
Hi David,
Our works are to believe on a Jesus, as Jesus tells us in John 6:29.
Believing on Jesus is God's will for us, John 6:40.
and in believing on Jesus we are born of God, 1John 5:1.
Also, in believing on Jesus we overcome, 1John 5:5.
I'll answer a couple of your points here as I don't want to make this post too long.
Consider the context of James 4:17 before assuming what "good" means.
I suspect you understand "good" to mean obeying the 10 commandments. Is that correct?
Note James 4:4 to see who it addresses to help get context.
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Here we see it addresses spiritual adulterers who are in adultery with Hagar (symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).
Note also James 4:7, 8
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Here we see a salvation call to these spiritual adulterers who are lost, in unbelief, which is evidenced by the fact they follow doctrines where righteousness is determined by obedience to the law.
And note James 4:12.
There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
Further confirmation that the context of this chapter is referring to legalists/spiritual adulterers, who judge righteousness by obedience to the law.
So what is the "good" that James 4:17 speaks of?
It refers to believing on Jesus. This is the will of God (John 6:40, 1 Thess 4:3,)
Our works are to believe on Jesus, John 6:29.
The "good" that we are to do is to believe on Jesus.
Scripture is SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED, 1Cor2:14.
Regarding Matt 25; the sheep and goats, below are some scriptures to give the spiritual context to what is feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, taking in the stranger, etc.
What is the spiritual food/drink that mankind is in need of?
It's Christ Jesus.
1 Cor 10:3-4
And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Who are those in spiritual prison?
It's those who are without Christ.
Isa 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
And what is the state of mankind without Christ?
It's sick, and needing to hear the gospel of Christ.
Isa 1:5-6
Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.
And how are the naked clothed?
Isa 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, My soul shall be joyful in my God; For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,
And who is the stranger?
Eph 2:12
that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Eph 2:19
Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
So we see scripture speaking in spiritual terms regarding preaching the gospel of grace. And in doing the works of believing in Jesus, John 6:29, Christians also let their light shine preaching the gospel of Christ to spiritually feed, clothe, heal and set free, the lost.
Matt 5:14-16
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works (believing in Jesus, John 6:29), and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Our works are to believe on a Jesus, as Jesus tells us in John 6:29.
Believing on Jesus is God's will for us, John 6:40.
and in believing on Jesus we are born of God, 1John 5:1.
Also, in believing on Jesus we overcome, 1John 5:5.
I'll answer a couple of your points here as I don't want to make this post too long.
Consider the context of James 4:17 before assuming what "good" means.
I suspect you understand "good" to mean obeying the 10 commandments. Is that correct?
Note James 4:4 to see who it addresses to help get context.
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Here we see it addresses spiritual adulterers who are in adultery with Hagar (symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).
Note also James 4:7, 8
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Here we see a salvation call to these spiritual adulterers who are lost, in unbelief, which is evidenced by the fact they follow doctrines where righteousness is determined by obedience to the law.
And note James 4:12.
There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
Further confirmation that the context of this chapter is referring to legalists/spiritual adulterers, who judge righteousness by obedience to the law.
So what is the "good" that James 4:17 speaks of?
It refers to believing on Jesus. This is the will of God (John 6:40, 1 Thess 4:3,)
Our works are to believe on Jesus, John 6:29.
The "good" that we are to do is to believe on Jesus.
Scripture is SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED, 1Cor2:14.
Regarding Matt 25; the sheep and goats, below are some scriptures to give the spiritual context to what is feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, taking in the stranger, etc.
What is the spiritual food/drink that mankind is in need of?
It's Christ Jesus.
1 Cor 10:3-4
And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Who are those in spiritual prison?
It's those who are without Christ.
Isa 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
And what is the state of mankind without Christ?
It's sick, and needing to hear the gospel of Christ.
Isa 1:5-6
Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.
And how are the naked clothed?
Isa 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, My soul shall be joyful in my God; For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,
And who is the stranger?
Eph 2:12
that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Eph 2:19
Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
So we see scripture speaking in spiritual terms regarding preaching the gospel of grace. And in doing the works of believing in Jesus, John 6:29, Christians also let their light shine preaching the gospel of Christ to spiritually feed, clothe, heal and set free, the lost.
Matt 5:14-16
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works (believing in Jesus, John 6:29), and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Okay, first I would like to disagree with your perspective on James 2:17.
However I would like to say I appreciate that you actually use Bible quotes to prove your perspective. First, on the "good' part.
The Bible says that God is "good" (when people call Jesus good he says the Father is good not him). Does that mean God itself is the 10 commandments, or that good is a morality? I think the answer is obvious.
Also, I agree with you on the context. However the quote itself means all forms of good. Meaning, if you know that it is good yet you do the opposite anyways, there will be consequences. This also correlates with other verses. (If you want, about the God being good verse, I can find it for you if you want Im assuming you know of it already)
1 Corinthian s 2:14 does not say scripture is spritually concerned, read:
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
It says the spirit of God. It does not specifically say scripture itself is spirtual.
1 Corinthians 10:3-4 is not talking about that. They are talking about this:
[h=3]Numbers 20[/h]King James Version (KJV)
20 Then came the children of Israel, even the whole congregation, into the desert of Zin in the first month: and the people abode in Kadesh; and Miriam died there, and was buried there.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And there was no water for the congregation: and they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And the people chode with Moses, and spake, saying, Would God that we had died when our brethren died before the Lord!
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And why have ye brought up the congregation of the Lord into this wilderness, that we and our cattle should die there?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And wherefore have ye made us to come up out of Egypt, to bring us in unto this evil place? it is no place of seed, or of figs, or of vines, or of pomegranates; neither is there any water to drink.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they fell upon their faces: and the glory of the Lord appeared unto them.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And Moses took the rod from before the Lord, as he commanded him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock?
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.
If you read, it says they were supposed to speak to the rock. The rock itself was what 1 Corinthians 10:3-4 is talking about. Remember in the final verse they get punished for not speaking to the rock.
Isaiah quote is irrelevant I dont see what it has to do wit this. I think it correlated with you saying scripture is spiritual, but as I shown above it doesnt say that. So I will move on from this quote. If you prove scripture is spiritual I will address this then but at the moment I dont see it's relevance.
Okay I agree with this quote. It still does not disagree or prove my perspective wrong :/, why did you bring this up?
As for the rest of the quotes, I agree with them. I dont see their relevancy. They dont disprove anything I have posted so far.
I think you misunderstand. Here is what I am saying. First off, grace is the abillity for non-israelites to go to Heaven as well as for them to repent. Secondaly, good works are a part of faith. Nothing you have shown has debunked that. I understand your perspective that it is all on spiritual terms in your perspective, but does that mean that the fire of the bush in Moses was spiritual and didnt really happen? Or the Garden of Eden isnt a physical place but spiritual? Or that the golden calf was really just spiritual and not real? How far can you stretch that it is spiritual and not factual? Do you see the problems with that logic.
Also, you did not disprove the quotes I supplied before. As it stands I still keep my perspective. I have shown you the flaw in your logic. If you can prove the spiritual thing, I may reconsider it, but I read the quote and posted it. It does not apply (however i have a hunch you will try again but thats always good).
So I stand where I stand. The scriptures I post in the OP show that through faith we are saved because we are given grace. Good works are a testament of faith. Its that simple.
Lastly though, even though I disagree with you and I believe I have done a good enough job at disproving your position, I appreciate your thouroughness. I appreciate you using Bible quotes and scripture to prove your point, instead of just stating something with no evidence.
However I would like to say I appreciate that you actually use Bible quotes to prove your perspective. First, on the "good' part.
The Bible says that God is "good" (when people call Jesus good he says the Father is good not him). Does that mean God itself is the 10 commandments, or that good is a morality? I think the answer is obvious.
Also, I agree with you on the context. However the quote itself means all forms of good. Meaning, if you know that it is good yet you do the opposite anyways, there will be consequences. This also correlates with other verses. (If you want, about the God being good verse, I can find it for you if you want Im assuming you know of it already)
1 Corinthian s 2:14 does not say scripture is spritually concerned, read:
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
It says the spirit of God. It does not specifically say scripture itself is spirtual.
1 Corinthians 10:3-4 is not talking about that. They are talking about this:
[h=3]Numbers 20[/h]King James Version (KJV)
20 Then came the children of Israel, even the whole congregation, into the desert of Zin in the first month: and the people abode in Kadesh; and Miriam died there, and was buried there.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And there was no water for the congregation: and they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And the people chode with Moses, and spake, saying, Would God that we had died when our brethren died before the Lord!
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And why have ye brought up the congregation of the Lord into this wilderness, that we and our cattle should die there?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And wherefore have ye made us to come up out of Egypt, to bring us in unto this evil place? it is no place of seed, or of figs, or of vines, or of pomegranates; neither is there any water to drink.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they fell upon their faces: and the glory of the Lord appeared unto them.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And Moses took the rod from before the Lord, as he commanded him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock?
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.
If you read, it says they were supposed to speak to the rock. The rock itself was what 1 Corinthians 10:3-4 is talking about. Remember in the final verse they get punished for not speaking to the rock.
Isaiah quote is irrelevant I dont see what it has to do wit this. I think it correlated with you saying scripture is spiritual, but as I shown above it doesnt say that. So I will move on from this quote. If you prove scripture is spiritual I will address this then but at the moment I dont see it's relevance.
Okay I agree with this quote. It still does not disagree or prove my perspective wrong :/, why did you bring this up?
As for the rest of the quotes, I agree with them. I dont see their relevancy. They dont disprove anything I have posted so far.
I think you misunderstand. Here is what I am saying. First off, grace is the abillity for non-israelites to go to Heaven as well as for them to repent. Secondaly, good works are a part of faith. Nothing you have shown has debunked that. I understand your perspective that it is all on spiritual terms in your perspective, but does that mean that the fire of the bush in Moses was spiritual and didnt really happen? Or the Garden of Eden isnt a physical place but spiritual? Or that the golden calf was really just spiritual and not real? How far can you stretch that it is spiritual and not factual? Do you see the problems with that logic.
Also, you did not disprove the quotes I supplied before. As it stands I still keep my perspective. I have shown you the flaw in your logic. If you can prove the spiritual thing, I may reconsider it, but I read the quote and posted it. It does not apply (however i have a hunch you will try again but thats always good
).So I stand where I stand. The scriptures I post in the OP show that through faith we are saved because we are given grace. Good works are a testament of faith. Its that simple.
Lastly though, even though I disagree with you and I believe I have done a good enough job at disproving your position, I appreciate your thouroughness. I appreciate you using Bible quotes and scripture to prove your point, instead of just stating something with no evidence.
Just on a side note, I need to leave soon and finish some school stuff before i go to work. So im going to have to leave soon (30 minutes) but I will be back by Sunday night (thats about 18 hours or so after I leave - 10 hour workshift + more homework =_=) So please send them posts now so I can reply quickly
I've read the Bible over 50 times in 4 languages, including Hebrew and Greek. I've studied theology in Seminary, where we we're presented with all of the soteriological options, then told to defend our choice based on the Bible.
I don't need to read 20 posts by you in unreadable KJV English to tell me what I believe.
God alone is sovereign. There is nothing we can say or do to make him save us, he is the Saviour, not us. God is in control, not any petty actions or self -made works hat we do.
You have made a huge theological mistake in your assumptions, which I explained in great detail to sea bass in a thread just yesterday.
1. We are justified by faith. God alone justifies or makes us righteous.
"Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1
2. As we walk with Christ, we are sanctified by him, being transformed to the image of Christ.
"And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit." 2 Cor. 3:18
3. When we die or Christ returns, we will be glorified by him.
"And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Romans 8:30
It is a lie of the devil that we are saved by works. That makes Christianity no different than any other religion in the world. NO! We have a Saviour, Jesus Christ, who saves us completely from our sins, and nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus!
"37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:37-39
My suggestion is to buy some theology books written by scholars who have studied the Bible for years and years, from all the different viewpoints. Then pray, and ask God to show you the truth. There is no works righteousness in the Christian faith!
I don't need to read 20 posts by you in unreadable KJV English to tell me what I believe.
God alone is sovereign. There is nothing we can say or do to make him save us, he is the Saviour, not us. God is in control, not any petty actions or self -made works hat we do.
You have made a huge theological mistake in your assumptions, which I explained in great detail to sea bass in a thread just yesterday.
1. We are justified by faith. God alone justifies or makes us righteous.
"Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1
2. As we walk with Christ, we are sanctified by him, being transformed to the image of Christ.
"And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit." 2 Cor. 3:18
3. When we die or Christ returns, we will be glorified by him.
"And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Romans 8:30
It is a lie of the devil that we are saved by works. That makes Christianity no different than any other religion in the world. NO! We have a Saviour, Jesus Christ, who saves us completely from our sins, and nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus!
"37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:37-39
My suggestion is to buy some theology books written by scholars who have studied the Bible for years and years, from all the different viewpoints. Then pray, and ask God to show you the truth. There is no works righteousness in the Christian faith!
So basically you're claiming to know the Bible yet you wont even read verses that I post and assume you are right... okay.. that seems odd.
See im not disagreeing with what you wrote at all lol. All I am saying is that faith is defined by works like it says in the Bible. I am not saying you need like 100 pounds of good works to enter Heaven. All im saying is that good works define your faith. It says so in the Bible. I don't know why you didnt just read my post, then you wouldn't of had to post anything at all :/.
So let me reiterate, the Bible says works are a testament of your faith. It says so in the quotes I provided as well as consequences for it. If you read my quotes, you would understand where I am coming from instead of just assuming I was wrong from the beginning :/.
See im not disagreeing with what you wrote at all lol. All I am saying is that faith is defined by works like it says in the Bible. I am not saying you need like 100 pounds of good works to enter Heaven. All im saying is that good works define your faith. It says so in the Bible. I don't know why you didnt just read my post, then you wouldn't of had to post anything at all :/.
So let me reiterate, the Bible says works are a testament of your faith. It says so in the quotes I provided as well as consequences for it. If you read my quotes, you would understand where I am coming from instead of just assuming I was wrong from the beginning :/.