Works Determine Whether you go to Heaven or Hell

[DavidLOVESsnow]

I've read the Bible over 50 times in 4 languages, including Hebrew and Greek. I've studied theology in Seminary, where we we're presented with all of the soteriological options, then told to defend our choice based on the Bible.

I don't need to read 20 posts by you in unreadable KJV English to tell me what I believe.

God alone is sovereign. There is nothing we can say or do to make him save us, he is the Saviour, not us. God is in control, not any petty actions or self -made works hat we do.

You have made a huge theological mistake in your assumptions, which I explained in great detail to sea bass in a thread just yesterday.

1. We are justified by faith. God alone justifies or makes us righteous.

"Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1

2. As we walk with Christ, we are sanctified by him, being transformed to the image of Christ.

"And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit." 2 Cor. 3:18
3. When we die or Christ returns, we will be glorified by him.

"And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Romans 8:30


It is a lie of the devil that we are saved by works. That makes Christianity no different than any other religion in the world. NO! We have a Saviour, Jesus Christ, who saves us completely from our sins, and nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus!

"37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:37-39

My suggestion is to buy some theology books written by scholars who have studied the Bible for years and years, from all the different viewpoints. Then pray, and ask God to show you the truth. There is no works righteousness in the Christian faith!

On a side note your 3rd point is a mistranslation. First I'll show you the KJV, then throw some logic at ya. God gave us free will, with what you quoted in the version you read (btw KJV is not unreadable -_-) is promoting Calvinism. So let me quote the KJV for ya:

[h=3]Romans 8:30[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]30 [/SUP]Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.



So when you read that you think... well wait a minute, I thought I had free will? Does this mean from the beginning God chose who Goes to heaven and who goes to hell.... or does it mean that God knows what choices you will make?

Or does that mean that, if you are correct, that God chose for people to burn in hell, for abominations to happen, to plan for the devil to exist, to plan for fallen angels, etc. etc.... or does it mean he knew what choices you would make? Think about it logically and you'll figure out your answer.

I can send you a video that explains this with a pastor, or you can just think about it.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

Ephesians 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Thank you for underlining that.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

I've read the Bible over 50 times in 4 languages, including Hebrew and Greek. I've studied theology in Seminary, where we we're presented with all of the soteriological options, then told to defend our choice based on the Bible.

I don't need to read 20 posts by you in unreadable KJV English to tell me what I believe.

God alone is sovereign. There is nothing we can say or do to make him save us, he is the Saviour, not us. God is in control, not any petty actions or self -made works hat we do.

You have made a huge theological mistake in your assumptions, which I explained in great detail to sea bass in a thread just yesterday.

1. We are justified by faith. God alone justifies or makes us righteous.

"Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1

2. As we walk with Christ, we are sanctified by him, being transformed to the image of Christ.

"And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit." 2 Cor. 3:18
3. When we die or Christ returns, we will be glorified by him.

"And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Romans 8:30


It is a lie of the devil that we are saved by works. That makes Christianity no different than any other religion in the world. NO! We have a Saviour, Jesus Christ, who saves us completely from our sins, and nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus!

"37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:37-39

My suggestion is to buy some theology books written by scholars who have studied the Bible for years and years, from all the different viewpoints. Then pray, and ask God to show you the truth. There is no works righteousness in the Christian faith!

I found it. Believe it or not, it was the verse right before 30. No wonder it took me so long. The way you just quoted 30 made me confused I was like "wait a minute thats not right..." Regardless, here are 2 bible quotes (ones is KJV I got the CEV because you dont like KJV):

[h=3]Romans 8:29[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]29 [/SUP]For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.



[h=3]Romans 8:29[/h]Contemporary English Version (CEV)

[SUP]29 [/SUP]and he has always known who his chosen ones would be. He had decided to let them become like his own Son, so that his Son would be the first of many children.





That is saying that he just knew what choices you would make before you made them. It makes sense since God can read our minds. Also please dont say im Cherry picking verses and twisting them. I never did such things. I just explained exactly what they said. I didnt interpret them in some special way. It just there. Like what I just did above.

 

[doseofreality]

God alone is sovereign. There is nothing we can say or do to make him save us, he is the Saviour, not us. God is in control, not any petty actions or self -made works hat we do.

God decides who will be saved yet there is no way of knowing if you're saved unless you DO certain things.

When witnessing the gospel christians typically will say you are a sinner and that Jesus died to save you, all you need to do is accept His free gift and ask for forgiveness.

Why this stipulation if nothing is needed for salvation? That is the work of faith referred to by the OP. So it does not contradict your doctrine.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

On a side note your 3rd point is a mistranslation. First I'll show you the KJV, then throw some logic at ya. God gave us free will, with what you quoted in the version you read (btw KJV is not unreadable -_-) is promoting Calvinism. So let me quote the KJV for ya:

Romans 8:30

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]30 [/SUP]Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.



So when you read that you think... well wait a minute, I thought I had free will? Does this mean from the beginning God chose who Goes to heaven and who goes to hell.... or does it mean that God knows what choices you will make?

Or does that mean that, if you are correct, that God chose for people to burn in hell, for abominations to happen, to plan for the devil to exist, to plan for fallen angels, etc. etc.... or does it mean he knew what choices you would make? Think about it logically and you'll figure out your answer.

I can send you a video that explains this with a pastor, or you can just think about it.

Btw I take back my first statement about verse 30 being a mistranslation. I thought it was verse 29 and I was thinking "well that isnt what verse 29 says..." So my apologies. I just read it and was thinking "Well ive read that before and I know what It means.." so my bad, I made a mistake. Just you put verse 30 without verse 29 so it made no sense. My apologies.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

Well this debate was quite fun. I'll be back later everyone as I said I had a time limit on here. Got a huge assignment to do and hopefully get a 2 hour nap before I go to work. God bless you all and I will come back and respond to every post that is in disagreement with me [and maybe some who agree ;D] and continue this discussion. However, I currently have to leave. Bye everyone and God bless you

-and if by chance as SOON as I post this someone comments, I'll respond to your comment before I go-

 

[MrsRoseTreasure]

Interestingly to me, this has been a subject matter on my mind lately. Good works? How much good works? Should I seek out good works, or just do the works that come to me?

It's been a matter of interest because of my desire to please King Yeshua, however, which seems to be a burning need inside of me of late.

The Bible research you've done here is impressive. I would have to admit that what you are presenting makes sense, and will add to my overall learning.

On another note, it falls into line with the laws of Physics, which really are Yahweh's laws, after all. According to Newton, "Third law: When one body exerts a force on a second body, the second body simultaneously exerts a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the first body." (Copied from Wiki) If committing evil works will send you to hell, the opposite reaction would also be true, would it not?

 

[haz]

Okay, first I would like to disagree with your perspective on James 4:17.

However I would like to say I appreciate that you actually use Bible quotes to prove your perspective. First, on the "good' part.

The Bible says that God is "good" (when people call Jesus good he says the Father is good not him). Does that mean God itself is the 10 commandments, or that good is a morality? I think the answer is obvious.

Also, I agree with you on the context. However the quote itself means all forms of good. Meaning, if you know that it is good yet you do the opposite anyways, there will be consequences.

James 4:17 speaks of not doing good is sin. We all know that scripture says the wages of sin is death and the soul that sins shall die. 1John 3:8 even says that anyone who sins is "of the devil". Hence we can see from this that James 4:17 speaks of those who can be charged with "sin". that is those in unbelief (which is the sin the world is convicted of, John 16:9).

So we see the context of James 4 shows that the "good" it refers to is to believe in Jesus.

1 Corinthian s 2:14 does not say scripture is spritually concerned, read:

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
It says the spirit of God. It does not specifically say scripture itself is spirtual.

Note 1Cor 2:14 to see how it refers to scripture, as shared through the likes of Paul himself.
These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1 Corinthians 10:3-4 is not talking about that.

1Cor 10:3,4 clearly describes Christ as our spiritual food and drink. This cannot be denied.
Man can be physically hungry and also spiritually hungry. Its the spiritual hunger and thirst that scripture deals with, which is the point I was making about Matt 25.

Isaiah quote is irrelevant I dont see what it has to do wit this. I think it correlated with you saying scripture is spiritual, but as I shown above it doesnt say that. So I will move on from this quote. If you prove scripture is spiritual I will address this then but at the moment I dont see it's relevance.

Okay I agree with this quote. It still does not disagree or prove my perspective wrong :/, why did you bring this up?
As for the rest of the quotes, I agree with them. I dont see their relevancy. They dont disprove anything I have posted so far.

I'm not sure what you refer to here as you have not made direct reference to which scripture I quoted. But I can assure you it is all spiritual what I was referring to. As for whether one can see it or not depends on our individual level of spiritual understanding at this time.

Here is what I am saying. First off, grace is the abillity for non-israelites to go to Heaven as well as for them to repent.

Grace applies to physical Israel just as much as to non-Israelite.
I refer you to Rom 2:29 which clearly shows that physical Israel are not Jews. Physical Israel are really Gentiles/Sinners needing to hear the gospel of grace just as much as anyone else.
Rom 2:29
but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Also, you did not disprove the quotes I supplied before. As it stands I still keep my perspective. I have shown you the flaw in your logic.

I fail to see how you have shown any alleged flaw at all. I suggest its best to just quote scripture to support one's claim instead of making unsupported claims of showing another's "flawed" understanding.

Good works are a testament of faith.

I suspect we'll disagree, but what do you claim these "good works" to be?

Now to address another one of your other points.

Matthew 7:21-23
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Note above that it speaks about doing the will of God.
What is the will of God?
John 6:40
this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day

Note how this confirms what Jesus said in John 6:29, that our works are to believe in him.

I would like to quote Mark 16:16-18:
Mark 16:16-18

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
[SUP]18 [/SUP]They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Therefore in Mark 16:16-18, it shows how they were true Christians in Matthew 7:21-23. When we read it understanding that, it proves that they were Christians, but because they did not do good deeds they were sent to hell. This correlates with earlier verses that talk about how you should do the will of the Father, also it correlates with the verse James 4:17 that talks about doing good.

I'm curious whether you see the picking up serpents and drinking deadly things, etc, as physical or spiritual?
If you see it as physical have you been picking up snakes and drinking poison lately? Have you been casting out devils physically and laying hands on the physically sick to heal them?

If not, then are you saying that you will go to hell because you do not have such "good"works on your record?

 

[BenFTW]

The answer I gave to SeaBass I am going to give to you, therefore I will just paste what I wrote to him. As I said, with this post it is the end of the topic, you can't get past the conclusion.

I must say, that is one of the silliest arguments I have ever heard and more so, that it is being said to try and argue a point of works being necessary. By the very definition of what a Christian is, it entails a good work of some kind will happen(in their life time) due to how God changes our nature and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, who gives us the fruits of the Holy Spirit. One of which is the fruit of LOVE and love will cause us to do something that is considered to be a good work.

See now, a work of some kind WILL happen, but its not of ourselves but out of what God makes us and produces in us (the fruits). This is not to say, "See! Works are necessary! Ha! Gotcha!" On the contrary, it is IMPOSSIBLE to be saved and not yield fruit, because by being saved we are born-again, receiving a new nature, and of course, the fruits of the Spirit. (besides the thief, death bed confessions, and the like of not having a chance to bear fruit, yet still saved). To argue that works are then necessary for salvation is to deny death bed confessions, someone who had the opportunity to help someone and didn't, and the thief on the cross, from receiving salvation. You can't argue against the thief by saying he was under OT Law, because he confessed Christ believing what He would do (accomplish) just as the many people saved from Sheol were saved in those three days Christ was dead, until His resurrection because of Christ (and the promise).

Do you see how silly such an argument is? A musician will play an instrument, therefore if he doesn't play an instrument he isn't a musician. No duh... good job Sherlock! A Christian will produce some kind of good works, but the works didnt give him salvation and they neither maintain his salvation.

As it says on one site: Think of it this way. If it was your birthday and a friend came and gave you a gift , something that you really wanted you'd be very thankful. but what if you pulled out your wallet and said let me pay you for your gift. That would be a real insult to him. He gave it to you out of love not asking for anything in return

In 1 Corinthians 3:15 it tells us of a man whose works are all burned yet he still has salvation.

So to answer your question, of whether works are necessary for salvation. NO they aren't, because in scripture we have an example of a man being left with no work standing and he is still saved! You can't get past that, he had no works standing, they were of no merit, yet he was still saved!

1 Corinthians 3:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Salvation is by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ. (no works necessary) Works do not maintain that salvation, once one has it, as is clearly seen in 1 Corinthians 3:15.

/End of topic

 

[just-me]

Oops it wont let me edit it for 5 minutes. I hope under Ephesians 2:10 people can see how I accidently bolded it. It isnt supposed to be bolded because it isnt a Bible quote. I will edit it as soon as CC lets me.

Food for thought. Faith is away accompanied with works, but works alone isn't from faith. Faith is a gift of the Spirit of God, and is also an attribute of the fruit of the spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
Galatians 5:22-23 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

James 2:20-26 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[Vernon]

Reply to Post #27 DavidLOVESsnow:

"... not of yourselves: IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD, NOT of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for GOOD WORKS, which GOD PREPARED beforehand, that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:10

It is God who has given us faith and it is God who has given us the actual grace to do his good works which he has prepared for us. They are evidence that we have received God's grace. Therefore we boast in nothing except Jesus Christ to him be the glory forever.

Let me explain it this way: When you were conceived and grew in your mother's womb what did you do to cause this to happen? Did you have any control over your birth into this world? In the same way That you were physically born into this world and did nothing to accomplish this, in your spiritual birth (born again, born from above) you did nothing to accomplish your spiritual birth either. God has done everything.

After we are spiritually born we have to live by the Spirit to have life, we must receive spiritual food and drink, we must allow the Spirit (Holy Spirit) to direct us and guide us to heaven, the faith and good works we do are by the Holy Spirit abiding in us. Our faith and good works do nothing to gain us heaven they are evidence that we are born from above, and are no longer a part of this world, but we are in Christ and a part of his kingdom.

Christ be with you always.

 

[timberdoodle]

Salvations is by grace, and is a gift from God, he doesn't ask us to get to be "good" to obtain but good works are the result of that grace working inside of us, that's why it says that we'll know who are God's children by their fruits, it is important to say that a true believer is interested on pleasing God and we do our best to behave the way he wants us to behave.

Well done good and faithful servant

 

[Apostol2013]

Works vs Grace .... such a paradox.

As a former christian looking back, I am more and more convinced of your point of view.

Even with the grace and the justification at the cross, unless you repent and walk daily with Him you are not saved.
The act of repenting and believing are works, actions taken on our part.

Even after repentance, your life must be changed, "Faith without works is dead".
So no matter how many times you may repent, its 'what have you done lately' type of criteria as to if one is truly saved.

I could argue from the bible that I am both saved and not saved presently. Depending on your point of view, works or grace.

It is by grace in good faith in jesus Christ but the truth is christ is holiness heis truth he is righteousness , and as we confessed the Lord and walked in repentance and in the baptism of the Lord we become dead to our own works and begin to live in the Works that are of God , this ist thw works of God at work that we are not doing the works but gave enough faith that jesus will do the work for us through faith..

 

[paulsfam4]

faith and works! If you know that Jesus went to the cross and rose again so we MAY live....May is used several different times in the bible or MIGHT is another that is used! ,this is where works come in! what are works a Job ? no, works are living the way the word of God tells us to live so if you claim to be a Christian yet still living a sinful life and desires there is no works in your FAITH! WORKS: living daily the way Word of God tells us.. Works equals actions do we have Godly actions or sinful ? Do we love someone that does us wrong or hold anger at them, Is our actions inline with GODS WORDS! And our FAITH

 

[just-me]

Being saved by grace is a way of life, not something that happened yesterday, or last year. Henceforth being born anew, or again is the beginning of that new life that we call salvation.

 

[BenFTW]

Being saved by grace is a way of life, not something that happened yesterday, or last year. Henceforth being born anew, or again is the beginning of that new life that we call salvation.

That's the best way I've ever seen works based salvation articulated, unfortunately for you, it's wrong.

PS: Maybe I should say, "Fortunately for you, its wrong"? Saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (no works necessary). You don't have to work at it, rest in His (Jesus') finished work.

 

[just-me]

That's the best way I've ever seen works based salvation articulated, unfortunately for you, it's wrong.

PS: Maybe I should say, "Fortunately for you, its wrong"? Saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (no works necessary). You don't have to work at it, rest in His (Jesus') finished work.

So then your salvation is a thing of the past? When did your salvation begin? Self works is dead. I quote James as the same as I believe.

James 2:18 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

 

[BenFTW]

So then your salvation is a thing of the past?

No, it is eternal.

 

[BenFTW]

So then your salvation is a thing of the past? When did your salvation begin? Self works is dead. I quote James as the same as I believe.

James 2:18 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

You aren't quoting James. You are quoting James quoting an objector. So, you are quoting the point of an objector to what James was preaching! Context just-me, context. Look at what he said, ''Yea, a man may say,".

 

[just-me]

You aren't quoting James. You are quoting James quoting an objector. So, you are quoting the point of an objector to what James was preaching! Context just-me, context. Look at what he said, ''Yea, a man may say,".

Speaking of context. You forgot the colon that is right after James says works: Then James talks about himself.
James 2:20-21 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?