What makes it impossible for a carnal mind to be subject to the law?

[homwardbound]

David saw Yeshua afar off yet he witnessed discipline, salvation and grace in faith and yet in the law. I don't think he was boasting in the law in Psalm 18 or in Psalm 94 but in real joy while he was able to keep His law. On the other hand, he was in deep godly sorrow after he realized he sinned in Psalm 32 & Psalm 51.
He is a perfect example of no one can keep the law perfectly and yet he said he will teach transgressors His way while he's still in repentance.
Pretty hypocritical in today's standard eh?
Pretty immature in Christ eh?
Regardless, he's loved and if only I'm as bad as him.

How much sin does it take to come to the end of the energy of ones own flesh, Saul went to the point and killed Christians, and what righteous under Law as he points out so well in Phil 3 and shows us under Law and being self-righteous is vanity read it where he says he puts no confidence in flesh at all and yet he was righteous in the Law, But gave all of it up to win Christ through the cross of Chirst, first death of Christ is the death of himself and the life, the resurrected Christ is his new life in Spirit and Truth

 

[chubbena]

Do you not understand if one is dead to law one is freed to serve God as his bond servant in love as what Romans 7 is being explained dead to law carnal law and are by death freed to marry another, and this other is Christ all of him?

Whether dead to the law or not, Paul upheld the law and so must we to see how unworthy we were, are and hopefully not will be through the renewing of the mind by the Holy Spirit. A carnal mind cannot subject to the law, he can't agree with the law and it's judgment on him and see his new for Christ. I believe it's said in different ways on this thread again and again and I hope from different angles we all agree on this.

 

[homwardbound]

Just so there's no misunderstanding here the old covenant was of as much love as the new and that those of the old were also saved by the new through the same faith in Christ - His love has never changed.

Yep, I think you got it. Love connected to Mercy is what it has been all along, First sacrifice was from God and he clothed Adam and Eve. god is the Merciful one to all, What angers God is people that think in ways that benefit them while having no consideration win whether they are harming others
Read All about Noah and why God was angry with his creation. I am elated you are getting it, Love to all from God the Father via the Son and all the Saints in the first testament looked forward to the day of Christ we are looking back to it in thanksgiving and praise, seeing the work finished as those in the first, were in desperation for it to be finished and restored to the promise by Faith in Abraham, not Law, rather Love that is above Law, and truie perfect Law follows Love God's type not carnally, spiritually

 

[chubbena]

How much sin does it take to come to the end of the energy of ones own flesh, Saul went to the point and killed Christians, and what righteous under Law as he points out so well in Phil 3 and shows us under Law and being self-righteous is vanity read it where he says he puts no confidence in flesh at all and yet he was righteous in the Law, But gave all of it up to win Christ through the cross of Chirst, first death of Christ is the death of himself and the life, the resurrected Christ is his new life in Spirit and Truth

Like I said earlier, I don't know much in phycology and don't want to get into Gnosticism. To me spirit and flesh define a person. My spirit needs spiritual food as much as my flesh needs physical food. My spirit praise the Lord as much as my flesh praise the Lord. I don't blame on my flesh because it's given by Him alone with His spirit whom I have neglected in the past. I praise Him for reviving my spirit. Now it's a matter of getting the flesh under it.

 

[homwardbound]

Whether dead to the law or not, Paul upheld the law and so must we to see how unworthy we were, are and hopefully not will be through the renewing of the mind by the Holy Spirit. A carnal mind cannot subject to the law, he can't agree with the law and it's judgment on him and see his new for Christ. I believe it's said in different ways on this thread again and again and I hope from different angles we all agree on this.

Agreed Brother agreed

 

[homwardbound]

Like I said earlier, I don't know much in phycology and don't want to get into Gnosticism. To me spirit and flesh define a person. My spirit needs spiritual food as much as my flesh needs physical food. My spirit praise the Lord as much as my flesh praise the Lord. I don't blame on my flesh because it's given by Him alone with His spirit whom I have neglected in the past. I praise Him for reviving my spirit. Now it's a matter of getting the flesh under it.

When the Spirit is in the lead:
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Tell me how does or can one walk in the Spirit by Faith or by works?

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

How are we made perfect by Christ alone? Do we really have to add works when the works of god are finished?

If I try top keep my flesh under subjection, what happens? You know, you have been there and maybe are only you know?

Think God is trying to show you not to depend on trying to keep you under subjection rather God for as:
Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

I sowed to the flesh for years much and all I found was I Got worse at sin and deeper in debt, yet I kept asking god for more forgiveness,m feeling better that I asked for more and stood right back up to be stronger and prove my worth, only to fall again and again.
Also when I did accomplish things like quitting smoking, I saw I got proud and boastful ans was admonished corrected by God and went back to show me my evil flesh that masqueraded as a goody two shoes. with the profoundness of look at me I quit

2 Corinthians 10:2 but I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.
Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

No matter reckon self dead to flesh, for flesh is sin, and I am not talking Gnosticism, for Christ did come here to earth in the flesh
Christ's death on the cross condemned all sin to the flesh to be=ring us the new life in the Spirit of Father

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

therefore there is no condemnation for:
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[chubbena]

Yep, I think you got it. Love connected to Mercy is what it has been all along, First sacrifice was from God and he clothed Adam and Eve. god is the Merciful one to all, What angers God is people that think in ways that benefit them while having no consideration win whether they are harming others
Read All about Noah and why God was angry with his creation. I am elated you are getting it, Love to all from God the Father via the Son and all the Saints in the first testament looked forward to the day of Christ we are looking back to it in thanksgiving and praise, seeing the work finished as those in the first, were in desperation for it to be finished and restored to the promise by Faith in Abraham, not Law, rather Love that is above Law, and truie perfect Law follows Love God's type not carnally, spiritually

The only little, yet big, disagreement I have is, I believe God is law, law is His Word and by His Word He created everything, and God is love, and by His love He sent His Son, the Word, to save.

 

[homwardbound]

And now you are seeing the difference of flesh and Spirit. We are born again in the Spirit and our flesh is held alive by this, yet it is dead

Acts 17:28 for in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:


Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I love the book of Proverbs...

Leaning on our own understanding ties to not trusting God, and not trusting His word and instruction.

Proverbs 3:1 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:
Proverbs 3:2 For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.
Proverbs 3:3 Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:
Proverbs 3:4 So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Proverbs 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Proverbs 3:7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
Proverbs 3:8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.
Proverbs 3:9 Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:
Proverbs 3:10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.
Proverbs 3:11 My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:
Proverbs 3:12 For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Ms. Least: I love Proverbs, too. Seems that Proverbs 8 has Messianic overtones also.

Blessings.

 

[john832]

Let me ask you - Do you still need to do sacrifice an offering for peace? Do you still need to do sacrifice for thanksgiving? Do you still need to slaughter a perfect lamb every year and spread it's blood upon your doorpost?To me the answer is NO. . . because of what Jesus Christ did for me I can go boldly to the throne of grace and talk to God myself. Jesus Christ fulfilled all that when he died on that cross and God raised him to life so that now he is a mediator of the new testament/covenant - he is my high priest. I would rather you read the scripture and obtain your understanding. It is there in black and white. I have posted many scriptures.

Well, Christ says this...

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.

Did He lie?

You have stated that "Jesus Christ fulfilled all that when he died on that cross and God raised him to life so that now he is a mediator of the new testament/covenant - he is my high priest."

Where does the N.T. Say that the Law is done away? There are some Laws that are still in force...

Lev 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

Anyone question that?

There are some that are simply fulfilled...

Exo 30:10 And Aaron shall make atonement upon its horns once a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonement; once a year he shall make atonement upon it throughout your generations. It is most holy to the LORD."

Heb 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.

The animal sacrifices never paid for sin, they were the schoolmaster, the tutor...

Gal 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

And then there are those that can only be kept under condition...

Lev 14:34 "When you have come into the land of Canaan, which I give you as a possession, and I put the leprous plague in a house in the land of your possession,
Lev 14:35 and he who owns the house comes and tells the priest, saying, 'It seems to me that there is some plague in the house,'

Black mold, etc. Now do we just ignore this today?

Lev 14:36 then the priest shall command that they empty the house, before the priest goes into it to examine the plague, that all that is in the house may not be made unclean; and afterward the priest shall go in to examine the house.
Lev 14:37 And he shall examine the plague; and indeed if the plague is on the walls of the house with ingrained streaks, greenish or reddish, which appear to be deep in the wall,

There is no Levitical Priesthood prcaticing today, so this Law cannot be applied as stated. When one has a house that is contaminated by some such, we do not ignore it today, we clean it.

Lev 14:39 And the priest shall come again on the seventh day and look; and indeed if the plague has spread on the walls of the house,
Lev 14:40 then the priest shall command that they take away the stones in which is the plague, and they shall cast them into an unclean place outside the city.
Lev 14:41 And he shall cause the house to be scraped inside, all around, and the dust that they scrape off they shall pour out in an unclean place outside the city.
Lev 14:42 Then they shall take other stones and put them in the place of those stones, and he shall take other mortar and plaster the house.
Lev 14:43 "Now if the plague comes back and breaks out in the house, after he has taken away the stones, after he has scraped the house, and after it is plastered,
Lev 14:44 then the priest shall come and look; and indeed if the plague has spread in the house, it is an active leprosy in the house. It is unclean.
Lev 14:45 And he shall break down the house, its stones, its timber, and all the plaster of the house, and he shall carry them outside the city to an unclean place.

One cannot call on the Priest to examine a house today. Do the principles apply? We clean the house, if it can be cleansed, we may live in it. If the "Black Mold" or whatever cannot be removed, the house is typically condemned.

Christ's words are that not the dotting of an i or the crossing of a t would fail from the Law till all is fulfilled. Now, how much of the Law is "done away"?

 

[Grandpa]

Well, Christ says this...

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.

Did He lie?

You have stated that "Jesus Christ fulfilled all that when he died on that cross and God raised him to life so that now he is a mediator of the new testament/covenant - he is my high priest."

Where does the N.T. Say that the Law is done away? There are some Laws that are still in force...

Lev 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

Anyone question that?

There are some that are simply fulfilled...

Exo 30:10 And Aaron shall make atonement upon its horns once a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonement; once a year he shall make atonement upon it throughout your generations. It is most holy to the LORD."

Heb 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.

The animal sacrifices never paid for sin, they were the schoolmaster, the tutor...

Gal 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

And then there are those that can only be kept under condition...

Lev 14:34 "When you have come into the land of Canaan, which I give you as a possession, and I put the leprous plague in a house in the land of your possession,
Lev 14:35 and he who owns the house comes and tells the priest, saying, 'It seems to me that there is some plague in the house,'

Black mold, etc. Now do we just ignore this today?

Lev 14:36 then the priest shall command that they empty the house, before the priest goes into it to examine the plague, that all that is in the house may not be made unclean; and afterward the priest shall go in to examine the house.
Lev 14:37 And he shall examine the plague; and indeed if the plague is on the walls of the house with ingrained streaks, greenish or reddish, which appear to be deep in the wall,

There is no Levitical Priesthood prcaticing today, so this Law cannot be applied as stated. When one has a house that is contaminated by some such, we do not ignore it today, we clean it.

Lev 14:39 And the priest shall come again on the seventh day and look; and indeed if the plague has spread on the walls of the house,
Lev 14:40 then the priest shall command that they take away the stones in which is the plague, and they shall cast them into an unclean place outside the city.
Lev 14:41 And he shall cause the house to be scraped inside, all around, and the dust that they scrape off they shall pour out in an unclean place outside the city.
Lev 14:42 Then they shall take other stones and put them in the place of those stones, and he shall take other mortar and plaster the house.
Lev 14:43 "Now if the plague comes back and breaks out in the house, after he has taken away the stones, after he has scraped the house, and after it is plastered,
Lev 14:44 then the priest shall come and look; and indeed if the plague has spread in the house, it is an active leprosy in the house. It is unclean.
Lev 14:45 And he shall break down the house, its stones, its timber, and all the plaster of the house, and he shall carry them outside the city to an unclean place.

One cannot call on the Priest to examine a house today. Do the principles apply? We clean the house, if it can be cleansed, we may live in it. If the "Black Mold" or whatever cannot be removed, the house is typically condemned.

Christ's words are that not the dotting of an i or the crossing of a t would fail from the Law till all is fulfilled. Now, how much of the Law is "done away"?

It depends on your faith in Christ. If you have only a little faith then I suppose only a little of the law is fulfilled and you are on the hook for the rest.

If you have all your faith in Christ then I suppose all the law is fulfilled, you are not trying to fulfill any of it yourself.

Mark 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

 

[just-me]

It depends on your faith in Christ. If you have only a little faith then I suppose only a little of the law is fulfilled and you are on the hook for the rest.

If you have all your faith in Christ then I suppose all the law is fulfilled, you are not trying to fulfill any of it yourself.

Mark 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Good scripture reference. I think it applies. Being re positioned as the word "ordained" means, we are no longer under but brought to another point through grace so that we can see the law in a different perspective, and then can be subject to the spiritual understanding from the beginning. The shadow of things to come cannot be seen correctly if we are not in the correct position of the light and the substance called "faith." If we are underneath the shadow we cannot see it. If we are within the area of the substance, then we can see its shadow as it is meant to be seen.

 

[chubbena]

When the Spirit is in the lead:
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Tell me how does or can one walk in the Spirit by Faith or by works?

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

How are we made perfect by Christ alone? Do we really have to add works when the works of god are finished?

If I try top keep my flesh under subjection, what happens? You know, you have been there and maybe are only you know?

Think God is trying to show you not to depend on trying to keep you under subjection rather God for as:
Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

I sowed to the flesh for years much and all I found was I Got worse at sin and deeper in debt, yet I kept asking god for more forgiveness,m feeling better that I asked for more and stood right back up to be stronger and prove my worth, only to fall again and again.
Also when I did accomplish things like quitting smoking, I saw I got proud and boastful ans was admonished corrected by God and went back to show me my evil flesh that masqueraded as a goody two shoes. with the profoundness of look at me I quit

2 Corinthians 10:2 but I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.
Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

No matter reckon self dead to flesh, for flesh is sin, and I am not talking Gnosticism, for Christ did come here to earth in the flesh
Christ's death on the cross condemned all sin to the flesh to be=ring us the new life in the Spirit of Father

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

therefore there is no condemnation for:
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I like your post because there's a lot of good in it yet
a. Gnosticism is more than denying Yashua came in the flesh.
Quote from various sources on the internet:
They agreed that The Fall was identical to the fall into matter. In other words, creation and The Fall coincide. "As long as spirits are trapped in physical bodies and materiality, they will be subject to sin, which is caused by ignorance of their true nature and home."
b. Flesh is not inherently sinful. It's corrupted by sin. It was spiritually dead (like Adam, a living dead) and believers are revived from this dead. Now believers are to use this very flesh to glorify the creator.
c. The flesh in Gal 3:3 is the same flesh in Gal 2:20 which says: I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
In other words, Paul was saying in flesh by faith that yields to the Holy Spirit rather than to the sinful nature.
d. The same word flesh in Gal 3:3 refers to the sinful states of human beings, often presented as a power in opposition to the Spirit.
In other words, we are to live in flesh by faith in the Spirit to resist the power of sin.
It would be an ongoing fight whether we treat ourselves as dead or not.

 

[homwardbound]

I like your post because there's a lot of good in it yet
a. Gnosticism is more than denying Yashua came in the flesh.
Quote from various sources on the internet:
They agreed that The Fall was identical to the fall into matter. In other words, creation and The Fall coincide. "As long as spirits are trapped in physical bodies and materiality, they will be subject to sin, which is caused by ignorance of their true nature and home."
b. Flesh is not inherently sinful. It's corrupted by sin. It was spiritually dead (like Adam, a living dead) and believers are revived from this dead. Now believers are to use this very flesh to glorify the creator.
c. The flesh in Gal 3:3 is the same flesh in Gal 2:20 which says: I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
In other words, Paul was saying in flesh by faith that yields to the Holy Spirit rather than to the sinful nature.
d. The same word flesh in Gal 3:3 refers to the sinful states of human beings, often presented as a power in opposition to the Spirit.
In other words, we are to live in flesh by faith in the Spirit to resist the power of sin.
It would be an ongoing fight whether we treat ourselves as dead or not.

I just found it easier to walk by Faith in reckoning me dead to sin by Christ's death:

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.



Philippians 3:10 that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Philippians 3:11 if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

 

[homwardbound]

I see us both growing in God's maturity for us both, thank you Father, thank you Christ.

 

[chubbena]

I just found it easier to walk by Faith in reckoning me dead to sin by Christ's death:

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.



Philippians 3:10 that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Philippians 3:11 if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

No confidence in the flesh indeed. His power indeed.

 

[john832]

It depends on your faith in Christ. If you have only a little faith then I suppose only a little of the law is fulfilled and you are on the hook for the rest.

If you have all your faith in Christ then I suppose all the law is fulfilled, you are not trying to fulfill any of it yourself.

Mark 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

The thing that I find odd is that anyone who has been called, justified, reconciled and sealed with the Holy Spirit and then wants to do what Christ says, is branded a legalist who believes that the Law is salvation. In reality, I believe no such thing and have stated at least one hundred times that one hundred lifetimes of one hundred years each of perfect obedience to the Law cannot earn salvation, it is the gift of God.

 

[just-me]

Okay, let's take a good look at the progression of events, and see if they are right. Israel cries out to God for deliverance. God hears their cry and sends Moses as an ambassador of God to answer their cry, and deliver them from a sinful environment. Passover begins the process of events that lead to mount Sinai because God wants to instruct His children in righteousness, and to show them about Himself as the God that they have chosen to follow, and serve.

Do I have it right at this point?

Then He instructs them to build a temple for blood letting, and sacrifice for sins, along with other ordinances of temple worship. After all is completed through Jesus Christ, God hears the cry of those wanting to escape their captivity, and reverses the process of events by taking away the temple.

So far so good, or am I a little off at this point? Maybe He let the old temple be destroyed so He could build another one with different ordinances that had nothing to do with the first temple because the old didn't work right according to what He planned in the beginning.

Now after taking away the temple He sends His Spirit to instruct us according to His character and righteousness after we call out for salvation. In order to do that he must also get rid of written instruction that He gave to Israel. Henceforth, He began with a plan that could be shifted into reverse in case the first one didn't work out right.

True or false?

 

[Hoffco]

Jesus just quoted a truth that satan could not deny. Because satan knew scripture.

It was not that law which caused Jesus to not turn the stones to bread. It was that he KNEW God had a plan for his life. and if he commited this sin, He could not do what God wanted him to do.

Jesus was not thinking of self. He was thinking of you and I.

I would hope we could come up with a more Biblical answer. Satan has no respect for God or His word. God forces His will upon Satan and the whole world. Nothing is out of God control. God is totally sovereign. God created evil and good and is in control over the whole plan He has for Satan and us. No one of us would be saved if God left us to our "free" wills. God forced Saul off his horse and saved him. God uses force, power and love to save us. Most are saved in a gentle way; God usually works in a quite way, making us willing to come to Christ. John 5:21"...so the Son gives life to whom He will." Jh.6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (force) Him..." The heart, mind and will of man is sinful, wicked and can not do right on its own. Children must be forced, taught, to do good, This takes a lot of loving discipline , not cruel beating. God usually uses loving power to convinces us of His truth; So we will beg Him for mercy. Then God gives us a new heart, soul and mind, with His new birth. Then, we will gladly submit to the law of God. We receive God's mind set in conversion. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[Grandpa]

Okay, let's take a good look at the progression of events, and see if they are right. Israel cries out to God for deliverance. God hears their cry and sends Moses as an ambassador of God to answer their cry, and deliver them from a sinful environment. Passover begins the process of events that lead to mount Sinai because God wants to instruct His children in righteousness, and to show them about Himself as the God that they have chosen to follow, and serve.

Do I have it right at this point?

Up to your last sentence. Passover begins the process of events that lead to the Hebrews being freed from slavery. As they are being removed from slavery they are completely under Gods Grace, Protection, Mercy and Provision. After their many transgressions against God and His Grace, Mercy and Protection, the Hebrews are given His Law. This Law is meant to show the Hebrews the error of their ways, but many in the pride of their own understanding think that God has given them, personally, instructions to follow to establish their own wisdom and righteousness.

Then He instructs them to build a temple for blood letting, and sacrifice for sins, along with other ordinances of temple worship. After all is completed through Jesus Christ, God hears the cry of those wanting to escape their captivity, and reverses the process of events by taking away the temple.

So far so good, or am I a little off at this point? Maybe He let the old temple be destroyed so He could build another one with different ordinances that had nothing to do with the first temple because the old didn't work right according to what He planned in the beginning.

All of the blood letting and everything about the tabernacle was practice for the real thing, the spiritual in Christ. All of what the Hebrews did in the tabernacle and the temple was fulfilled by the Lord Jesus Christ. God is a God of order and there is a process. These things that the Hebrews did was an imitation of the Heavenly things, as an example so we would recognize the real thing In Christ.

Now after taking away the temple He sends His Spirit to instruct us according to His character and righteousness after we call out for salvation. In order to do that he must also get rid of written instruction that He gave to Israel. Henceforth, He began with a plan that could be shifted into reverse in case the first one didn't work out right.

True or false?

The first one wasn't meant to work out it was just an example of what was to come. So now everyone who has come to Salvation in Jesus Christ can see what the Lord Jesus has fulfilled and done for them. Once we come to Salvation and the Knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ we don't get rid of the written account of the schoolmaster. But we also don't attempt to resurrect it and rebuild it. Everything is new in the Lord Jesus.