Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[Alligator]

Well, your post at #382, you seemed a bit uncertain concerning the fact that there is only one Body of Christ.

But looking at your other posts before that one, I am now seeing that you understand the Dispensational distinctions between the means of salvation in the Old Testament and those of the New Testament.

yes, by that statement I was simply being a little facetious. This site is probably not a good place to be facetious, dont you think?

 

[Apostol2013]

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. note

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. note

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 

[tucksma]

Its simple. Faith without works is dead. Faith is the mixing of belief AND works.

Hebrews 11:1 defines Faith.
11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

How do we have evidence for the things not seen or have the substance for things hoped for? These two words, substance and evidence, are where works come in. Without works, you have no evidence or substance. You have a belief in your head. At the same time, without belief you are missing the whole thing that is to be hoped for, and the thing in which is not seen. Both belief and works play into faith. Without works faith is dead. Without belief, works are just good deeds. Works + Belief = Faith.

 

[Apostol2013]

Now james speaks of works in this chapter it gives a expla.ation of the works involved with faith

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How about the verse to every tree that bares not good fruit is hewn and cast into the everlasting fire

But who will bare no fruit?

The one who has true faith in God and has been rescued (saved)

Or the one who does not have faith in God (yet may believe in him) and has yet to be rescued?

Scripture is clear. Those truly born of God WILL produce fruit.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Now james speaks of works in this chapter it gives a expla.ation of the works involved with faith

Actually James gives a way for people to "test their faith" And see if it is real..

When we test our faith. Are we hearers of the word only and not doer? or are we doers of the word (works)?

James was not written for us to look at others to try to see if they are saved, it was written for us to examin our own life. Why do people want to twist the context of James, and say he is preaching justification by works? When he is teaching justification by faith (WHICH is PROVEN By Works.)

 

[Apostol2013]

Actually James gives a way for people to "test their faith" And see if it is real..

When we test our faith. Are we hearers of the word only and not doer? or are we doers of the word (works)?

James was not written for us to look at others to try to see if they are saved, it was written for us to examin our own life. Why do people want to twist the context of James, and say he is preaching justification by works? When he is teaching justification by faith (WHICH is PROVEN By Works.)

That is the point self examination , even Jesus said to take out the smote in our eye first this is our first duty to allow God to clean our lives through our death that He lives through us , then it is Our Lord doing the works for us no our own...

 

[SeaBass]

If you have to do works to receive salvation, then how are the people that make death bed confessions saved?

Christ's NT gospel does not teach "death bed salvation".

 

[cfultz3]

Christ's NT gospel does not teach "death bed salvation".

Is salvation not offered to the living?

 

[SeaBass]

Maybe not in romans, but heres Hebrews for you.

Hebrews 4:10

King James Version (KJV)

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Heb 4:11 "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."


There is a rest for those that labour, not for those who do not labour.

 

[SeaBass]

From what you write, it appears that you have no knowledge of the New Creation and the implications of that.

Also, do you have children?

Did they come out of the womb fully capable of adult duties? Mature in character? Full of wisdom and cognition?

-JGIG

YOU do not seem to understand that the Christian has an OBLIGATION in doing good works to help his fellow Christian or else be eternally lost for not doing so, Matt 25:41-46

 

[SeaBass]

The context of the letter to the Hebrews is obedience to what?\

To the Gospel.

What is the Gospel?

Believe on the One He sent.

-JGIG

So belief would be an a obedient work.

 

[SeaBass]

You also see nothing that tells you that works are required for salvation. Forgiveness, Righteousness, and New Life are Gifts.

-JGIG

The very first verse of Rom 5 says "justified by faith" Note that it does NOT say 'justified by faith alone". Adding or assuming the word "alone" into this verse perverts it and one no longer has what God said. Faith is a work else it is dead.

 

[SeaBass]

Is it faith in the first place?

It's a dead faith that cannot save.

 

[SeaBass]

Has anyone even considered how arbitrary SeaBass' works based salvation is? Let me explain something to you, and also ask SeaBass something.

If someone accepts Christ and one opportunity(a good work) presents itself and the person does it, is he saved(and dies after)? SeaBass, you will say, "Yes." Right?

Now, if the same person has the opportunity presented to do a good work and doesn't do it, and dies, is he saved? SeaBass, you will answer, "No." That is, if you hold true to your works salvation. If you say, "Yes." then works are arbitrary. If you say, "No" that means that God requires perfection after one is saved (Why did Christ come again?).

Now, lets push this example even further. Say "Joe" accepts the Lord and has one year to live. Through out the year he is presented two opportunities to do good works. He does the first but doesn't do the second work. Is he saved, after the year is up and he dies? If you answer "Yes" then everyone is saved, because we will all unintentionally do a good work, out of who we are and the fruits of the Spirit. If you say, "No, he is not saved" then what you are saying is, again, that God requires perfection. To which I reply, "Why was Jesus sent again?" Oh, and if you say, "Yes" you've also shown that works are arbitrary because he did one and didn't do one.

PS: Is there a ratio of good works to missed good works to be saved? 50/50? 100% good works, with no missed opportunities? Who can do that?

You are simply trying to find ways to make good works for the Christian not necessary....which is in total opposition to Eph 2:10, Matt 25 and 1 Jn 3:17 among other verses.

Gal 6:10 "As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith."


A Christian is either doing righeousness (includes pre-ordained good works, Eph 2:10) or he is doing unrighteousness. Christians that do unrighteousness (not do good works) will be lost, no exceptions made about the unrighteous being lost...."Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?"


Lk 10, the parable of the good Samaritan was about helping others, even if those others you help do not like you and at the end of this parable Jesus said "Go, and do thou likewise."..a COMMAND not an option

 

[SeaBass]

Then you would have to question if they are truly saved. Grace comes through faith alone, when the believer receives both then works follow after. In no way does salvation wait for works, rather salvation produces works. If you have "faith" and live the same old lifestyle, then it wasn't really a faith but possibly a mere belief. One may merely convert, but another is born again. But one can truly have faith in Christ without works and be eternally saved. Eternal security is not a product of works at all.

So LACK of works prove they were not saved?

 

[SeaBass]

Maybe the best way to put it is that you are saved without works, but if you don't work, there's a good chance you weren't saved to begin with. For example, it is possible to be saved and die right away without really doing any works (although this is not a good idea to attempt). However, if you consider accepting Jesus as work, then I would lean toward no. Paul talks about people that do not know Christ doing good works and that they are law unto themselves. I personally believe that this means that someone that is in some remote area where they have never been taught about Jesus can "do good works" and be saved. I may be wrong about that, but if I'm right they are still doing good works and therefore would not be included in the "saved without works" question.

You post "Maybe the best way to put it is that you are saved without works, but if you don't work, there's a good chance you weren't saved to begin with"

This poses a contradiction for you cannot be saved without works and with works at the same time. You say if one does not have works, then that can mean he was not saved to begin with, but that makes works ESSENTIAL/NECESSARY to salvation if one cannot be saved without works.


The faith only proponents say works are not necessary to BECOME saved, but works are necesary AFTER one is saved for those works PROVE one was saved. Do you see the hole they have dugged for themselves here? According to "faith only" one would not have to ever do any works BEFORE or AFTER he is saved.

 

[SeaBass]

This is the verse that I'm am referring to: Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

I am not trying to push this idea on anyone, it's just something that I have come to realize as a possibility.

Lk 6:46 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"

A person cannot Christ "Lord" if that person does not DO what Christ has said.


I have NEVER said good works made one a Christian.

TO clearup any confusion, here is what I am saying:

OBEDIENT works in believing, repenting, confession and submitting to baptism, Jn 8:24; Lk 13:3,5; Mt 10:32,33: Mk 16:16 is how one becomes a Christian. AFTER one is ALREADY a Christian he must continue to be faithfully obedient, Rev 2:10 and do good works to MAINTAIN his salvation and not forfeit it.

An atheist can do all kinds of good works but those good works will NEVER make him a CHristian. He must do the OBEDIENT works of believing, repenting, confession and submit to water baptism to become a Christian.

So the bible requires obedient works to BECOME saved and good works AFTER one is saved.

 

[SeaBass]

I have just a minute for right now, but you do know that it was a metaphor, right?

You can receive Christ wherever you are and in whatever circumstances you find yourself.

You're putting way more conditions on folks for salvation than God does.

-JGIG

The truth is, God does invite everyone to be saved, He calls them (invites them) by His gospel, 2 Thess 2:14 and it takes works/obedience (obey the gospel) to answer that call. One is not answering that call by sitting and doing nothing.

 

[SeaBass]

Yes, it is harder 'work' for some than for others to enter into the Rest of the Righteousness of Christ:

3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (from Heb. 4)​

The point of contention here is that you are preaching the putting of more faith in your work than in the Work of Christ.

We who rest in Christ are not lazy when it comes to the works God has ordained in advance for us to do; when we are ready (prepared ahead of time by the maturing that Grace brings), and when He directs, we obey and follow. It really isn't that complicated.

Mostly I think you're just judging folks inappropriately because they don't measure up to a standard you have determined to be the 'line', when instead you should be seeking to find ways to build them up in who they are in Christ, spurring them on to maturity so that they can do the works that God has for them.

-JGIG

Jesus said to LABOUR/WORK for the meat that endures unto everlasting life. That settles the issue.