Talking against the law is dangerous

[danschance]

And a lot of deceivers who promote lawlessness.

Who said believers are lawless? That is a groundless accusation. No one that I have seen claims to be lawless. In fact it is an insult to call another Christian lawless.

Christ came to fulfill the law and He did. Yet he also gave us a New commandment".

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. John 13:34

New Testament believers are under the law of Christ. So please do not spread lies that we are lawless.

 

[just-me]

To peacefulbeliever

As you quoted:

"For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."

Haggai 2:6-9 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the LORD of hosts.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts.

John 2:19 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Mark 14:58 (KJV)
[SUP]58 [/SUP]We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.

Praise God from whom all blessing flow.

 

[Zinzerio]

No one is saying that there is no correlation between the OT and the NT. . . .the OT is full of 'shadows' of the coming Christ but that is all they were 'shadows'. It was 'fulfilled in Christ Jesus - all the shadows brought to light. We no longer need the 'shadows' when the real thing has come. There is a lot we can learn from the OT - many hidden gems but it is all concerning the coming Messiah.

Jesus Christ - the REAL THING!

there where different laws given in the old testament which laws are you refering to i will break them down for you 1. The Ten Commandments 2. The religious ceremonial laws 3. The health laws 4. The civil laws. ? could you explain what laws your talking about . Christ of the new testament is the same god of the old testament god does not lie

Hebrews 6:18
18 so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us



John 14:155" If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;…

ok pleas tell me what is it these laws your talking about. ?

2. The religious ceremonial laws

God planned from the beginning that the religious ceremonial laws would cease at the cross, because Christ, the true Lamb of God was sacrificed. The animal sacrifices all pointed forward to Christ’s death on the cross. “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, . . .” (Daniel 9:27) For us to offer animal sacrifices today would be a sacrilege, saying that Christ did not die for our sins.

is it thees lawsyou speak about ?


3. The health laws
These are laws that God gave us to keep us healthy and free from disease. The physics of the human body have not changed since these laws were given. The health laws are just as much a benefit for us today as they were for the ancient Israelites. Consider Exodus 15:26: “. . . If you will diligently hearken to the voice of the Lord your God, and will do that which is right in his sight, and will give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon you, that I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the Lord that heals you.” If people perfectly obeyed God and kept the health laws today they would NEVER be sick.

? is it thees laws you speak about ?




4. The civil laws

These were the laws governing the civil penalties for crimes within Israel.

Many of our civil laws today are based on these laws to some degree. God does not require these to be strictly adhered to today, because there no longer in existence, but they should be used to guide us in setting up our governments. When someone is convicted of murder, for instance, the murderer should be put to death swiftly in order to discourage others from this sin. “Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed And blood defiles the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it.” (Genesis 9:6, Numbers 35:33)


this last law here is done away with in some states but not all

Is it these laws your speaking about ?

and perhaps ivanco and eternily grateful and danschance and others can answer this question too and i think its awful and cowardly if you dont answer this especialy when you have all directly asked just-me who has quite clearly pointed out allready you are free from condemnation of the law if you believe in jesuses word.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

there where different laws given in the old testament which laws are you refering to i will break them down for you 1. The Ten Commandments 2. The religious ceremonial laws 3. The health laws 4. The civil laws. ? could you explain what laws your talking about . Christ of the new testament is the same god of the old testament god does not lie

All of these laws are included in one law. It is called the levitical law.

So when you speaking of the levitical law. You are speaking of them as a whole.

Hebrews 6:18

18 so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us



John 14:155" If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;…

ok pleas tell me what is it these laws your talking about. ?

The same laws abraham, noah. issac jacob, adam, eve etc etc.... had.

 

[Karraster]

No one is saying that there is no correlation between the OT and the NT. . . .the OT is full of 'shadows' of the coming Christ but that is all they were 'shadows'. It was 'fulfilled in Christ Jesus - all the shadows brought to light. We no longer need the 'shadows' when the real thing has come. There is a lot we can learn from the OT - many hidden gems but it is all concerning the coming Messiah.

Jesus Christ - the REAL THING!

It is a mistake to think all was fulfilled, for then how could we say "of things to come?" When does He return? If you study the feasts you will not be in darkness, but then the world view is that we don't need to know about the feasts because all we need is Jesus. But that is not what Jesus said, He said we should learn of Him, and He fulfilled the Springs Feasts, and in the future will fulfill (things to come) the Fall Feasts. Feasts are appointments. Not all has been fulfilled.

 

[Zinzerio]

now just befor you answer i do not agree with some of these laws myself but just stating how they are seen

 

[eternally-gratefull]

and perhaps ivanco and eternily grateful and danschance and others can answer this question too and i think its awful and cowardly if you dont answer this especialy when you have all directly asked just-me who has quite clearly pointed out allready you are free from condemnation of the law if you believe in jesuses word.

The problem with Just-me is he is no different than the jews of galations.

He picks and choses which laws we should follow. And symbolizes the rest and states we do not have to follow them because they were fulfilled in Christ. This he, like them, Tries to add rules and regulations to CHristianity, and lays a burden on them even the jews could not follow (nor even the disciples)

When he is confronted about the fact if your going to follow part of the law, you are indebted to keep it all. He starts is twisting and turning again.

His faith is in the law. Not in CHrist. If you actually read what he says long enough, you will start to see the picture. The more I read of his responses, the more I see of his true belief.

 

[just-me]

now just befor you answer i do not agree with some of these laws myself but just stating how they are seen

There are 2 people I have on my ignore list that are in here, so I won't be reading their answers. I'll read your reply to them when they show up LOL Ya got on your full armor? LOL God bless man!! God bless.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

And to add to you thoughts and scripture reference that are Biblical.....

ummmmm . . . . "add to my thoughts" - "scripture reference that are biblical? Well now, I do believe 2 Corinthians is biblical

How do we know we are serving the real Jesus that taught us the real truth? Rhetorically speaking.

John 5:43-47 (KJV)
[SUP]43 [/SUP]I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Who said we did not believe Moses? We just believe that Jesus Christ brought about a better covenant which is also scriptural. We believe that Jesus Christ always did his Father's will and he loved us so much that he withstood the shame and hung 6 hours on a tree to give us this better covenant - why should we let anyone 'bewitch us'?

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you that ye should not obey the truth before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect in the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you in the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for the just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith but the man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brethren I speak after the manner of men; though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth or addeth thereto. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul that is should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is nor more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for IF there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Galatians 3:1-21

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There are 2 people I have on my ignore list that are in here, so I won't be reading their answers. I'll read your reply to them when they show up LOL Ya got on your full armor? LOL God bless man!! God bless.

lol.

He hates the truth. So he thinks he has us on ignore.

He has us on ignore. because he refused to answer specific questions, and got sick of us asking the same questions.

people do that, They hate being confronted, so the best thing they can do is run. Which he has done.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

It is a mistake to think all was fulfilled, for then how could we say "of things to come?" When does He return? If you study the feasts you will not be in darkness, but then the world view is that we don't need to know about the feasts because all we need is Jesus. But that is not what Jesus said, He said we should learn of Him, and He fulfilled the Springs Feasts, and in the future will fulfill (things to come) the Fall Feasts. Feasts are appointments. Not all has been fulfilled.

Yep, the Spring Feasts: The Feast of Passover, the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Firstfruits, the Feast of Pentecost have been fulfilled. We are awaiting the Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, Feast of Booths. In context to what I have been saying - which I did say 'Levitical Law'; I believe it has been fulfilled in Christ. I don't think I EVER said that we do not need to be knowledgeable in any OT scripture - just the opposite. Thanks.

 

[just-me]

Acts 24:10-14 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak, answered, Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Because that thou mayest understand, that there are yet but twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem for to worship.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people, neither in the synagogues, nor in the city:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:


AMEN Paul. that's exactly what I think and believe.

 

[Zinzerio]

[/COLOR]All of these laws are included in one law. It is called the levitical law.

So when you speaking of the levitical law. You are speaking of them as a whole.




The same laws abraham, noah. issac jacob, adam, eve etc etc.... had.

[/SIZE]

ok just so i am not confused are you saying that the ten commandments only applies to Leviticus law ?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

ummmmm . . . . "add to my thoughts" - "scripture reference that are biblical? Well now, I do believe 2 Corinthians is biblical

Who said we did not believe Moses? We just believe that Jesus Christ brought about a better covenant which is also scriptural. We believe that Jesus Christ always did his Father's will and he loved us so much that he withstood the shame and hung 6 hours on a tree to give us this better covenant - why should we let anyone 'bewitch us'?

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you that ye should not obey the truth before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect in the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you in the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for the just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith but the man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brethren I speak after the manner of men; though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth or addeth thereto. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul that is should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is nor more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for IF there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Galatians 3:1-21

I think you answered all the questions in one passage, thats prety good.

This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Here answers to aspect as to ceremonial law (which circumcision was a ceremonial rite) Which was the context of the letter in the first place.

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for IF there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe

And here is the answer as it relates to the thou shalt, and thou shalt not commands of the law. So we see that the Law includes ever aspect. Not just specific parts.

And more importantly, Since we know Paul was speaking of the WHOLE of the law, not specific aspects of it.

What does he say to those who try to perfect their salvation by following the law? Or adding them to Christian duty?

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for the just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith but the man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

As we see here.

If your going to follow one part. you are undebted to follow it all. we can't pick and chose (like some are doing here) which parts of the law we are to follow and which are no longer required or symbolic only.

We also see the purpose of the law.

Cursed is ALL Who does not obey it ALL.

The law concludes ALL UNDER SIN (because we can not do the above requirement of the law.

SO WE MAY COME TO CHRIST IN FAITH?

It gets no clearer than this

 

[Karraster]

There are 2 people I have on my ignore list that are in here, so I won't be reading their answers. I'll read your reply to them when they show up LOL Ya got on your full armor? LOL God bless man!! God bless.

Only 2? lol.....you can see me, right? Ha ha

But seriously, I guess I've lived a sheltered life, because some of these things I have never heard. Seeing what people will say, what lengths they will go to in here, saying if you have faith in Jesus don't worry about the commandments...even go so far as to say, if you follow Jesus and keep the commandments you are spitting in Jesus face!! That's beyond any resemblance of reality. That is a lie! That's what satan says and has said since the Garden of Eden.

Plain and simple, if you love Messiah you keep His commandments. We have had a watered down "sweet baby Jesus in a manger" shoved down our throats from birth from pulpits all across America for decades. The reality is, He came as a Lamb the first time, and the next time He comes it will be as a Lion, and He will exact judgment on foolish virgins and those preaching falsely about who He is and what He taught. He gave an example in person, and no one will have any excuse when He tells them "depart from me you workers of lawlessness", because in case anybody don't know, iniquity is lawlessness.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

ok just so i am not confused are you saying that the ten commandments only applies to Leviticus law ?

I am saying the ten commands are a part of this.

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

How else can we know sin, unless the law said, "Do not covet" as paul said

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Only 2? lol.....you can see me, right? Ha ha

But seriously, I guess I've lived a sheltered life, because some of these things I have never heard. Seeing what people will say, what lengths they will go to in here, saying if you have faith in Jesus don't worry about the commandments...

lol.. That is prety sad though.

Why does a person who has faith in Christ, and are following the law of love need commandments for?

Is it going to help them be better people? Or cause them to think on things they should not be thinking on, and worrying about doing what God wants them to do?

even go so far as to say, if you follow Jesus and keep the commandments you are spitting in Jesus face!! That's beyond any resemblance of reality. That is a lie! That's what satan says and has said since the Garden of Eden.

Plain and simple, if you love Messiah you keep His commandments. We have had a watered down "sweet baby Jesus in a manger" shoved down our throats from birth from pulpits all across America for decades. The reality is, He came as a Lamb the first time, and the next time He comes it will be as a Lion, and He will exact judgment on foolish virgins and those preaching falsely about who He is and what He taught. He gave an example in person, and no one will have any excuse when He tells them "depart from me you workers of lawlessness", because in case anybody don't know, iniquity is lawlessness.

What is sad is you may not have heard these things. But you obvious have been taught many things, Because you make the same mistakes they make. (I was in your shoes once, and taught as you believe, so I think I know what you have been taught, You say the same things which I spent many a sunday listening to and based my christian life on. If only I knew now what I knew then. What more I could have done for god. I will never know. I can just pray God forgives me for being focused so much on things which could not help my Christian growth, and kep me from serving the people he placed in my life.

 

[Zinzerio]

I am saying the ten commands are a part of this.

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

How else can we know sin, unless the law said, "Do not covet" as paul said

that does not answer my question ? when jesus told his disciples to go out and preach the word did he say just dont bother preaching the old testament ? many reference point towards the old testement like this one

Jesus and Nicodemus
…13"No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

i can bring you many more scripture because i like this and even know me and you are not in full agreement of this matter i still find it a blessing to speak about the lord no matter what.

you seem hesitent though to say with your heart that the ten commandments is valid to everyone and this i feel is not coming from you this i feel is coming from many thousand of posts that maybe somehow has made you unsure.

Like me if i try to workout every persons way of thinking i will go mad without question as one tries to be spiritually aware and one can be fooled in to thinking that another brother is spiritual but only that is not so.

So what we must do is this we must concentrate on the word condemnation and not have any thoughts of this because of this scripture i show you now right look here
[h=3]John 3:17[/h]New International Version - UK (NIVUK)

[SUP]17 [/SUP]For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

that does not answer my question ? when jesus told his disciples to go out and preach the word did he say just dont bother preaching the old testament ? many reference point towards the old testement like this one

WHo said I do not preach the OT. I teach and study it all the time.

Jesus and Nicodemus
…13"No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

i can bring you many more scripture because i like this and even know me and you are not in full agreement of this matter i still find it a blessing to speak about the lord no matter what.

Have no idea what this has to do with the ten commands. They were not even mentioned here.

you seem hesitent though to say with your heart that the ten commandments is valid to everyone and this i feel is not coming from you this i feel is coming from many thousand of posts that maybe somehow has made you unsure.

Oh I do seem hesitant?

No I am not hesitant It did its job in my life. It proved I was a sinner. It did its job, Because I could not (I still can't keep them as required.

Galatians 3:10 [ The Law Brings a Curse ] For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

Like me if i try to workout every persons way of thinking i will go mad without question as one tries to be spiritually aware and one can be fooled in to thinking that another brother is spiritual but only that is not so.

Well keep working it out. It is obvious you do not understand my belief yet my friend.

So what we must do is this we must concentrate on the word condemnation and not have any thoughts of this because of this scripture i show you now right look here
John 3:17

New International Version - UK (NIVUK)

[SUP]17 [/SUP]For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Ah yes, He sent the son to save.

Why? Because all the law (including the ten commands) can do is condemn.

 

[just-me]

many reference point towards the old testement like this one

Jesus and Nicodemus
…13"No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

In reference to the conversation that Jesus had with Nicodemus, it was only about 2 months ago that I saw this for the first time, even though I have read the Gospel of John several times. Get a load of this.

John 3:9-10 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

In other words, the law and the prophets spoke about being born again in context. It doesn't say that specifically, as we read chronologically, but by studying, and comparing spiritual with spiritual, I can see that the Old Testament relates to being born again. Amazing!! to say the least.