Talking against the law is dangerous

[Timeline]

Day 3 - Israel told not to mix with other nations - seed after its own kind. I believe the land that appeared represents the law. The trees bearing fruit with seed (singular) represents leaders than were the ancestors of Jesus.

Day 4- Around 4,000 years - The Sun... come on, I'm not even going to tell you. You should know. The moon is a little more complex. Could be false light or reflecting light, meaning it could be good or bad. The stars, as we know, are angels - Most likely good and bad.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I don't know what you mean by "remote context" but it definitely appears that the Jews (Scribes and Pharisees) thought it heresy for Paul to teach the Jews and Gentiles to forsake Moses’ teachings by not being circumcised, and to not live by the religious customs of the Jews. (Acts 21:21)

Remote context can be either more than two to three chapters behind or even in a totally different book as long as the context has the same subject - immediate context would be in the immediate preceding and following verses.

<snip>

After being arrested, Paul speaks in “tongues” Greek to the Roman soldier and Hebrew to the Jews, in order to show them he was a Jew. Because Hebrew was being spoken they listened to him. (Acts 21:40)

Spoke in tongues as in the manifestation of the Spirit????? Paul was a Roman (Acts 23:27) and Paul was an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee (Phil. 3:5)

<snip>
The answer to your question is “after the way which they call heresy,”= according with the way they call a sect.

But this I confess unto thee, that according with the way they call a sect, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

I can see where you got what you are claiming - why did they believe he was teaching "according with the way they call a sect?" because they were still zealous of the law 21:20 Thou seest brother how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law. . .And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children neither to walk after their customs - (23:29 accused of questions of their law, but to have nothing laid to his charge worthy of death or bonds. . . ) Was Paul wrong in teaching that they didn't have to circumcise any more nor walk after "customs"? No - he was teaching them the new covenant - sometimes something new after years and years of 'tradition' is a hard thing to digest. Ya know it seems they were handling things pretty good until Stephen was mentioned and Paul being sent unto the Gentiles . . .
BUT there is another topic also that was thrown in the mix that brought about a great uproar: 23:6b,7 I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question. And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude divided. . .9) there arose a great cry. . .10) And when there arose a great dissension. . . and this subject continues after he says: But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: And have hope toward God which they themselves also allow that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust. . . . .
So he was teaching after the way which they - (they who? - the Pharisees/Jews) call heresy by teaching no more circumcision AND the resurrection. . . .After all that - maybe we can agree here

So I have a question that I will answer for all who are reading this.
What have we learned from this story recorded in Acts, and what does the adversary fervently desire within the ranks of the church, (both Jew and Gentile) since the time of the ministry of our Lord Jesus Christ began?

The adversary greatly desires to keep us in bondage to the law and to not have hope in the resurrection.
Jesus said He came to divide, (Luke 12:51) and then seems to contradict Himself by saying a house divided against itself cannot stand. (Matthew 12:25) I see no contradiction - Our love for Christ can become a barrier to members of our families or between friends which want to remain as 'heathens'. The other division is within the spiritual kingdom - the principalities, powers of darkness of Satan and the kingdom of God -

God’s kingdom, being ALL of the Word of God, is not divided, and He didn’t have any part of it crucified. Sin has been crucified pertaining to us, dividing/separating the sin from the sinner, NOT pertaining in any way to His kingdom.
If all the law changed because of the one change of the Priesthood changing to another tribe, the earth we are now standing on doesn’t exist according to the words of Jesus, and the jots, and tittles that have been thrown into never never-land will come back some day soon, like the fire from heaven that destroyed Sodom, and Gomorrah.

God's word is his heart to all generations and how he dealt with the children of Israel/Israel as a whole and how now he deals with the church, Christ's body, in a personal loving relationship wherein his grace is our sufficiency. Right Jesus came not to destroy the law but to FULFILL - the whole of scripture fits together like a hand in a glove - from beginning to end - if we have a better covenant NOW then something happened to the old one. Scripture is to be rightly divided - a right cutting and if it is not - there is error.

 

[Zinzerio]

originally posted by zinzerio

I may disagree with you, but I would not post such a thing. For your own safety, because it is heresy. It may not seem bad in your perspective, but I would honestly, whether you are right or wrong, not to take the risk.

if you say so but why do you think this is a heresy ?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

That's right. All of us need to read the whole Bible.

Philippians 3:4-5 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

It is amazing, that through Christ, even women can be circumcised these days, the physical law being the foundation of the spiritual. Without recognizing the law God gave to Moses, in this respect, we would not even be talking about circumcision. So by talking against the physical law, we are also talking against its spiritual concept of the truth in Christ.

Philippians 3:8-10 Yea doubltess, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death. . . . I press toward the mark of for the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

We recognize the law God gave to Moses - how could we not - it is written upon our hearts . . . we recognize that we are no longer under bondage to that law because of the righteousness given to us by and through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 2:9-11 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

I see by reading the whole Bible, that the law God gave to Moses is first in mentioning the New Testament concept of circumcision. It's just like the law of love concept.

Deuteronomy 10:15-16 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Deuteronomy 6:4-6 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

Just because it was endorsed then doesn't mean it's different now. Deuteronomy is a good law book.

The physical law deals with the flesh and fleshly deeds - we are no longer in the flesh but in the Spirit.

 

[Zinzerio]

Prayer Based on the Ten Commandments

1.Thou shall have no other Gods before Me.
Pray that God would be worshiped above all else in our land.

2.Thou shall not make unto thee any graven image.
Ask God to reveal our nation’s idolatry.

3.Thou shall not take the Name of the LORD thy GOD in vain.
Pray that the Lord’s name will be honored; ask God to bring a fresh conviction against profanity and depravity.

4.Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Pray that God’s people will set an example for this nation by honoring the Lord through a Sabbath rest.

5.Honor thy father and they mother.
Intercede that the family will be restored to its rightful place of honor and respect as God designed.

6.Thou shall not kill.
Pray that the culture of death would be broken; pray for a culture of life to reign.

7.Thou shall not commit adultery.
Intercede for marriages in this land; ask God to restore the sanctity of the marriage bond.

8.Thou shall not steal.
Pray that personal property would be respected; that both personal and governmental theft would end. Pray that Christians would honor the Lord with their time and not steal from those who employee them.

9.Thou shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
Intercede for a day when integrity and concern for our fellow man would cause us to honor our neighbors. Pray that we would learn to speak only the truth.

10.Thou shall not covet.
Ask God to help us to be satisfied and content with what He provides and not envy those who have more. Pray that men and women would discover their true purpose and contentment in serving the Lord.
Exodus 20:3-17 (KJV)

Biblical Virtues to Pray for Your Children

• Salvation. “Lord let salvation spring up within my children, that they may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory”

“You heavens above, rain down righteousness; let the clouds shower it down. Let the earth open wide, let salvation spring up, let righteousness grow with it; I, the LORD, have created it.” Isaiah 45:8 (NIV)
“Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.” 2 Timothy 2:10

2. Growth in grace. “I pray that my children may grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ”(2 Peter 3:18)
3. Love. “Grant, Lord, that my children may learn to live a life of love, through the Spirit who dwells in them”
“Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.” Galatians 5:25
“Live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.” Ephesians 5:2

 

[just-me]

Day 3 - Israel told not to mix with other nations - seed after its own kind. I believe the land that appeared represents the law. The trees bearing fruit with seed (singular) represents leaders than were the ancestors of Jesus.

Day 4- Around 4,000 years - The Sun... come on, I'm not even going to tell you. You should know. The moon is a little more complex. Could be false light or reflecting light, meaning it could be good or bad. The stars, as we know, are angels - Most likely good and bad.

I should know what about 4000 years being as 1 day to the Lord? Honestly, I'm talking creation relationships to Christ, and Israel. Does not the moon reflect the light of the greater light? Dose not the earth revolve around the sun, and the moon revolves around the earth? Does not the true believer reflect the greater light of Christ? Is not the world supposed to revolve around the Son, and the believers revolve around the world?

I require no answer, these questions are rhetorical. Just food for thought for those reading this post

We are in the world but not of it. How many time does the moon revolve around the sun? How many tribes in Israel? How many disciples of Jesus and on it goes with even more in scriptures.

John 8:12 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Matthew 5:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

John 3:12 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Day one was when He was crucified, and at His death the moment the New Testament began.

Day 4 was the first full day Jesus walked the earth after His resurrection.This is what transpired.

Luke 24:13-17 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?

Luke 24:25-27 (KJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

John 5:46-47 (KJV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

 

[just-me]

Remote context can be either more than two to three chapters behind or even in a totally different book as long as the context has the same subject - immediate context would be in the immediate preceding and following verses.

Spoke in tongues as in the manifestation of the Spirit????? Paul was a Roman (Acts 23:27) and Paul was an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee (Phil. 3:5)

I can see where you got what you are claiming - why did they believe he was teaching "according with the way they call a sect?" because they were still zealous of the law 21:20 Thou seest brother how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law. . .And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children neither to walk after their customs - (23:29 accused of questions of their law, but to have nothing laid to his charge worthy of death or bonds. . . ) Was Paul wrong in teaching that they didn't have to circumcise any more nor walk after "customs"? No - he was teaching them the new covenant - sometimes something new after years and years of 'tradition' is a hard thing to digest. Ya know it seems they were handling things pretty good until Stephen was mentioned and Paul being sent unto the Gentiles . . .
BUT there is another topic also that was thrown in the mix that brought about a great uproar: 23:6b,7 I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question. And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude divided. . .9) there arose a great cry. . .10) And when there arose a great dissension. . . and this subject continues after he says: But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: And have hope toward God which they themselves also allow that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust. . . . .
So he was teaching after the way which they - (they who? - the Pharisees/Jews) call heresy by teaching no more circumcision AND the resurrection. . . .After all that - maybe we can agree here

The adversary greatly desires to keep us in bondage to the law and to not have hope in the resurrection.
Jesus said He came to divide, (Luke 12:51) and then seems to contradict Himself by saying a house divided against itself cannot stand. (Matthew 12:25) I see no contradiction - Our love for Christ can become a barrier to members of our families or between friends which want to remain as 'heathens'. The other division is within the spiritual kingdom - the principalities, powers of darkness of Satan and the kingdom of God -

God's word is his heart to all generations and how he dealt with the children of Israel/Israel as a whole and how now he deals with the church, Christ's body, in a personal loving relationship wherein his grace is our sufficiency. Right Jesus came not to destroy the law but to FULFILL - the whole of scripture fits together like a hand in a glove - from beginning to end - if we have a better covenant NOW then something happened to the old one. Scripture is to be rightly divided - a right cutting and if it is not - there is error.

You said "why did they believe he was teaching "according with the way they call a sect? because they were still zealous of the law"

Just the opposite. No one thought he was teaching Jewish tradition. He was teaching the truth about Christ, the law , and the prophets, and admitted so. The Pharisees accused Paul of teaching against the law that God gave to Moses when he wasn't. That's proven throughout the story.

 

[just-me]

I can see where you got what you are claiming - why did they believe he was teaching "according with the way they call a sect?" because they were still zealous of the law 21:20 Thou seest brother how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law.

Sorry. I re-read several times what you wrote here, and now I see that we are saying the same thing in this one respect.

 

[ivanc0]

You need to read the whole bible. He says that you if are circumcised, then you deny Jesus. He also says that if you chose the route of the law then you have already failed. If you are guilty of breaking one law then you have broken the whole law. I am pretty sure I have already posted these verses. I will gladly post them again if you wish to read them. If one is lead by the Holy Spirit there is no law for him. This does mean that he can sin for as Paul says, "We do not sin more so that grace will abound more. How can we who have been freed from sin live in it.

I fully agree with you. This is exactly what I have been saying!
But out friends keep trying to shovel the laws in front of US!

 

[ivanc0]

1. Will a person who truly understand the grace of God go back to a works oriented gospel? NO
2. Will a person who truly understand the grace of God and how the LAW has condemned them, want to go back to law? No. Why? if they did, they still do not get the fact the law condemns them.

Many people walk around in our churches acting like believers, It does not mean they ever were or are. As scripture says, A dog will always return to his vomit. A person who has not yet been made a new creation in Christ may look saved for a time, But they will always return to what they truly are.

Actually I will add.... Many Pastors.....And doctors in the LAW! (Specially the ones that are very, very interested in your Money, and are increasing you coving for money)

 

[chubbena]

I just have to ask - Did they marvel and take knowledge of Peter and John that they had been with Jesus when they saw signs and wonders or because they saw their boldness? Now we can read into that and say it was because of the signs and wonders but that is not what the scripture actually says - they saw the boldness of Peter and John. Before the day of Pentecost many stayed behind closed doors for fear of the Jews or kept silent because of fear of the Jews. The point here is not the signs and wonders - the point here is the change that had come upon Peter that he spake with boldness directly to the rulers of the people and elders of Israel - no longer denying his Lord, no longer hiding in fear . . . and what did that? Then Peter, filled with the holy Spirit . . .

That's hilarious.
Under what situation did this incidence happen?
Who were the people who marvelled and take knowledge of Peter and John?
Who said "What are we going to do with these men? Everyone living in Jerusalem knows they have performed a notable sign, and we cannot deny it"?

Some say love is blind. I'd say like can be too.

 

[chubbena]

as of the last 24 hours i have not broken any of the 10 ten commandments if i have please show me.
my name means also i wish to be totally sincere and totaly not sinning if you don't lke my name because your having problems with obeying the lord that is your problem.

It's like quitting smoking eh? Next will be 24 days then 24 years and before you knew it....
Some might say if you love good health you don't have to quit.

 

[chubbena]

lol..

If you love your enemy. The final outcome is you will obey the Lord. One does not need the ten commandments to realise this or accomplish this, It just happens.

If you do not love your enemy, You will sin against them, and in turn, against the Lord.

One does not need the ten commandments to realize this, It will just happen.

Thats the law of Love

You must be flawless following this law of love eh?

 

[chubbena]

Why do you fear?

God does not want you to fear.

Romans 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”

If your living in fear, your living under law (which you are in bondage to) And Not Christ.

That's you saying.

I guess it's useless to quote from those folks in OT who loved His Law.
I guess it's useless to quote from Paul because you have it all figured out - but - for the sake of those who have not. Paul said "My dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling."

 

[ivanc0]

That's you saying.

I guess it's useless to quote from those folks in OT who loved His Law.
I guess it's useless to quote from Paul because you have it all figured out - but - for the sake of those who have not. Paul said "My dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling."

Actually you right it is USELESS to quote from the OT if you trying to enforce a law, but if you teaching History, or show principles is ok,
But is paramount to remember, Jesus died in the cross to fulfill the law, so a new covenant could be established...
[h=3]Galatians 3[/h]King James Version (KJV)


3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

[SUP]2 [/SUP]This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

.........
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

 

[JGIG]

This is true but again i must remind this law is not one of the ten commandment but i do agree that circumcise is just a spiritual reflection but in a spiritual it is when the grace is given.
And when the person is not rebellious the person has grace.

The Law is not one of the Ten Commandments?

The Ten and the 603 all comprise the Law.

It cannot be split apart; it is a comprehensive, integral, intertwined unit.

Circumcision and animal sacrifice is as much of the Law as 'Do not murder.'

If you're going to keep the Law, you must keep it all.

I know families who have had the husband/father and older male children circumcised to be in obedience to the Law.

They also keep a young lamb or kid in their home for the days before they slaughter it for the Passover meal. They are careful to not call it a 'sacrifice', however, as they know how that jars folks scrutinizing their religion.

It's all or nothing, folks.

The really sad thing is that when they fail at keeping whatever part of the Law, they have no priesthood to represent them in the Old Covenant under which they've chosen to live. They cannot be blameless or declared righteous, even temporarily.

In reality, all of their Law-keeping is doing nothing for them but condemning them.

'Keeping' a watered down version doesn't cut it when it comes to righteousness.

Keep it all, or you keep none of it.

11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?

12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.

13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is declared:

“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”

18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. (from Heb. 7)


​

-JGIG​

 

[peacefulbeliever]

You said "why did they believe he was teaching "according with the way they call a sect? because they were still zealous of the law"

Just the opposite. No one thought he was teaching Jewish tradition. He was teaching the truth about Christ, the law , and the prophets, and admitted so. The Pharisees accused Paul of teaching against the law that God gave to Moses when he wasn't. That's proven throughout the story.

He did not teach the 'law' as they knew it - This is why they said he was teaching heresy according to the way they call a sect (the way they call a sect were the Christians at they time) - Acts 21:27,28 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him, Crying out, Men of Israel help: This is the man that teacheth men every where against the people and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place. According to the law - men had to be circumcised - Paul was not teaching this - quite the opposite.

You still miss the matter of the resurrection: He worshipped after the way which they (Jews) called heresy, so I worship God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: And have hope toward God, which they themselves (Pharisees) also allow that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. - 23:6b of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

I really thought we would have agreed on this but oh well - you are certainly dogmatic in your desire to push the law. I see the spiritual analogy and I agree with you there but you don't stop there - it seems you want people to live according to the law - the law deals with the flesh - all manner of physical actions to cleanse the flesh. What good is it at this point since we have Christ and him crucified? Christ cleanses us from the inside out - the law from the outside in - doesn't work.

Oh well. . . <sigh>

 

[haz]

To know what sin is...

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

And who does the law apply to?
Rom 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Are Christians under the law?
Answer: No! Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Ga; 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9.

Clearly, scripture confirms that Christians cannot be charged with sin/transgression of the law.
Does God say that Christians can be charged with sin?
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

So, who does try to charge mankind with sin?
It's Satan, the accuser, who wants us to reject Christ and turn back to the law so that we can be charged with sin and be condemned to death. Satan wants us to be in spiritual adultery with Hagar (symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).
Rev 12:9-11
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

The doctrine of legalists seeks to bring us all back under the law so that Satan the accuser can charge us with sin.
The doctrine of the legalists is how man becomes a sinner.
Gal 2:18
For if I build again the things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor.SINNER

 

[JGIG]

1. Will a person who truly understand the grace of God go back to a works oriented gospel? NO
2. Will a person who truly understand the grace of God and how the LAW has condemned them, want to go back to law? No. Why? if they did, they still do not get the fact the law condemns them.

Many people walk around in our churches acting like believers, It does not mean they ever were or are. As scripture says, A dog will always return to his vomit. A person who has not yet been made a new creation in Christ may look saved for a time, But they will always return to what they truly are.

While I agree that a believer who is firmly established in the Gospel of Grace is unlikely to go back to the Law, there are several testimonies at JGIG of believers who come across Law keeping folks in their lives who throw them into confusion and some, for years, lived a lifestyle of Law 'keeping'. Thankfully, since those folks have written testimonies at JGIG, God did pursue them by His Spirit with His Grace and Truth (John 1:17) and they eventually came back to Grace.

I want us to be very careful about predicting just what 'true' believers will do. If whittled away by relentless deception over time, believers can become deceived and start to believe error.

Here's an excerpt from Believers in the Hebrew Roots Movement: Are They Lost?":

I’ve seen the issue titled above come up time after time, from anxious family members and friends of precious believers who have been sucked into the Hebrew Roots Movement, and from heresy hunters who use fear every bit as much as those they strive to refute as they try to retrieve the deceived back into Biblical Christianity.

Here’s how I see it:
The HRM draws both believers and unbelievers into its web. The Enemy accomplishes keeping the unbeliever away from the Gospel, and he keeps the believer from a fruitful relationship with God in Christ as he keeps them from bringing the Lost to Christ – they are far too busy ‘setting themselves apart’ via Law-keeping and trying to get other believers to be Torah observant for a variety of reasons.

Those in the Conditional Security camp may cringe when I say this, but one of the big ‘hooks’ that those in Law-keeping sects use to get folks into Law-keeping and keep them there is that if you don’t keep the Law, you’re in willful rebellion against God by not keeping His commandments and you are either
​

1. 
   [*=1]not really saved, or
   [*=1]will lose your salvation.

​

Conditional Security types who believe that one in Christ can somehow lose their salvation open the door to that very subtle deception and unwittingly feed into it.I firmly believe that believers who get hoodwinked into Law-keeping sects do not lose their salvation, but are neutralized in the Body – sterilized if you will – and will not ‘reproduce’, bringing the Lost into the Body. Their fruit is mixed, which makes evaluating what they believe on the core issues of the faith important.

I say their fruit is mixed because I’ve interacted with Torah folk who are, up front anyway, loving and joyful. When you begin to consistently disagree with them regarding believers’ relationship to the Law, however, they become impatient, critical, and controlling. Their intentions may initially be noble, but the flesh takes over and bears its fruit, produced by the Law under which they’ve placed themselves. We then begin to see things like idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, and envy. A few of you Torah folk balking at the idolatry and sorcery charges? Check out where some of your doctrines come from.

There are some from the HRM who convert to Judaism outright. And there arises a real sticky wicket: Are we in a position to judge the heart regarding the salvation/eternal security of one who goes so far as to do something as drastic as that?

Here’s a question worth considering: Are they, by their actions carried out under deception, rejecting the True Christ Jesus in/from/through Whom, in the past, they may have been saved and received eternal life, or are they rejecting the Enemy’s portrayal of a false Messiah cleverly crafted and spun in Law-keeping sects’ doctrines?

If they were truly saved in their past, what will happen to them? ​

​

See – I’m thinking we preach the Gospel regardless – to bring the deceived back to have Christ – the REAL Christ - be of full effect again in their lives, and if they were never saved to begin with, to bring them to Christ for the first time!

That’s the beauty of the Gospel: The Gospel corrects error and brings LIFE, so no matter the ailment, the Gospel is the Cure!

Are we seeing Torah folks’ lives from the perspective of God, Who sees not only where they are, but where they’ve been and where they’re going? A deeply deceived person will believe and do really dumb stuff. I’m of the mind and heart to preach the Gospel full preach and let God work out who is saved and who is not – with the understanding that I have but a snapshot of most people’s lives - especially on the internet!

So let this be an exhortation/encouragement for those of you who interact with friends and loved ones who are in the Hebrew Roots Movement and other false belief systems. Don’t take the responsibility of sorting out ‘who’s saved and who isn’t’ on your own shoulders. It’s not your deal. Examine fruit? Absolutely. Call out error? You bet. Tell someone who may very well be saved but walking in error that they’re going to hell? No.​

​

Instead, build them up in who they are in Christ; speak the simple Truths of the Gospel to them - lovingly and clearly to counter the falsehoods with which the Enemy seeks to muddy the waters as he drops the dirt of false doctrines into our streams of faith. If they’re already saved, the Gospel will correct the error they’re in if they’re willing. If they’re not already saved, communicating the Gospel to them will give them the opportunity to be reconciled to God in Christ.

Regardless, results are God’s business, not ours. We are called to speak Truth in Love, not to manipulate in order to get results.

Again, the Gospel corrects error and brings Life – think of how the Apostles dealt with error in the Apostolic writings. Sometimes they came at error head-on (absolutely appropriate on core issues), but mostly they just preached the Gospel of Grace and told believers who they are in Christ because of that Gospel (Who Jesus is, What He came to do, What that actually accomplished, and who believers are in Him).​

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

1. Will a person who truly understand the grace of God go back to a works oriented gospel? NO
2. Will a person who truly understand the grace of God and how the LAW has condemned them, want to go back to law? No. Why? if they did, they still do not get the fact the law condemns them.

Many people walk around in our churches acting like believers, It does not mean they ever were or are. As scripture says, A dog will always return to his vomit. A person who has not yet been made a new creation in Christ may look saved for a time, But they will always return to what they truly are.

While I agree that a believer who is firmly established in the Gospel of Grace is unlikely to go back to the Law, there are several testimonies at JGIG of believers who come across Law keeping folks in their lives who throw them into confusion and some, for years, lived a lifestyle of Law 'keeping'. Thankfully, since those folks have written testimonies at JGIG, God did pursue them by His Spirit with His Grace and Truth (John 1:17) and they eventually came back to Grace.

I want us to be very careful about predicting just what 'true' believers will do. If whittled away by relentless deception over time, believers can become deceived and start to believe error.

Here's an excerpt from Believers in the Hebrew Roots Movement: Are They Lost?":

I’ve seen the issue titled above come up time after time, from anxious family members and friends of precious believers who have been sucked into the Hebrew Roots Movement, and from heresy hunters who use fear every bit as much as those they strive to refute as they try to retrieve the deceived back into Biblical Christianity.

Here’s how I see it:
The HRM draws both believers and unbelievers into its web. The Enemy accomplishes keeping the unbeliever away from the Gospel, and he keeps the believer from a fruitful relationship with God in Christ as he keeps them from bringing the Lost to Christ – they are far too busy ‘setting themselves apart’ via Law-keeping and trying to get other believers to be Torah observant for a variety of reasons.

Those in the Conditional Security camp may cringe when I say this, but one of the big ‘hooks’ that those in Law-keeping sects use to get folks into Law-keeping and keep them there is that if you don’t keep the Law, you’re in willful rebellion against God by not keeping His commandments and you are either
​

1. 
   [*=1]not really saved, or
   [*=1]will lose your salvation.

​

Conditional Security types who believe that one in Christ can somehow lose their salvation open the door to that very subtle deception and unwittingly feed into it.I firmly believe that believers who get hoodwinked into Law-keeping sects do not lose their salvation, but are neutralized in the Body – sterilized if you will – and will not ‘reproduce’, bringing the Lost into the Body. Their fruit is mixed, which makes evaluating what they believe on the core issues of the faith important.

I say their fruit is mixed because I’ve interacted with Torah folk who are, up front anyway, loving and joyful. When you begin to consistently disagree with them regarding believers’ relationship to the Law, however, they become impatient, critical, and controlling. Their intentions may initially be noble, but the flesh takes over and bears its fruit, produced by the Law under which they’ve placed themselves. We then begin to see things like idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, and envy. A few of you Torah folk balking at the idolatry and sorcery charges? Check out where some of your doctrines come from.

There are some from the HRM who convert to Judaism outright. And there arises a real sticky wicket: Are we in a position to judge the heart regarding the salvation/eternal security of one who goes so far as to do something as drastic as that?

Here’s a question worth considering: Are they, by their actions carried out under deception, rejecting the True Christ Jesus in/from/through Whom, in the past, they may have been saved and received eternal life, or are they rejecting the Enemy’s portrayal of a false Messiah cleverly crafted and spun in Law-keeping sects’ doctrines?

If they were truly saved in their past, what will happen to them? ​

​

See – I’m thinking we preach the Gospel regardless – to bring the deceived back to have Christ – the REAL Christ - be of full effect again in their lives, and if they were never saved to begin with, to bring them to Christ for the first time!

That’s the beauty of the Gospel: The Gospel corrects error and brings LIFE, so no matter the ailment, the Gospel is the Cure!

Are we seeing Torah folks’ lives from the perspective of God, Who sees not only where they are, but where they’ve been and where they’re going? A deeply deceived person will believe and do really dumb stuff. I’m of the mind and heart to preach the Gospel full preach and let God work out who is saved and who is not – with the understanding that I have but a snapshot of most people’s lives - especially on the internet!

So let this be an exhortation/encouragement for those of you who interact with friends and loved ones who are in the Hebrew Roots Movement and other false belief systems. Don’t take the responsibility of sorting out ‘who’s saved and who isn’t’ on your own shoulders. It’s not your deal. Examine fruit? Absolutely. Call out error? You bet. Tell someone who may very well be saved but walking in error that they’re going to hell? No.​

​

Instead, build them up in who they are in Christ; speak the simple Truths of the Gospel to them - lovingly and clearly to counter the falsehoods with which the Enemy seeks to muddy the waters as he drops the dirt of false doctrines into our streams of faith. If they’re already saved, the Gospel will correct the error they’re in if they’re willing. If they’re not already saved, communicating the Gospel to them will give them the opportunity to be reconciled to God in Christ.

Regardless, results are God’s business, not ours. We are called to speak Truth in Love, not to manipulate in order to get results.

Again, the Gospel corrects error and brings Life – think of how the Apostles dealt with error in the Apostolic writings. Sometimes they came at error head-on (absolutely appropriate on core issues), but mostly they just preached the Gospel of Grace and told believers who they are in Christ because of that Gospel (Who Jesus is, What He came to do, What that actually accomplished, and who believers are in Him).​

-JGIG