AM I JEW OR A GENTILE IF I KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS ?
- Thread starter Zinzerio
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
It seems like you have a gross misunderstanding of where I'm at in my relationship with God.
1) I have a Savior
2) My salvation is through His merciful atonement. Nothing can ever change that.
3) On my own, I'm not perfect. I never will be. The only form of perfection I will ever have is how God sees me through the lens of Jesus' sacrifice.
4) I have never said I "must" keep the Law. I have said it is good to follow the Law to know how to live in response to God's salvation.
5) The only ability I have to follow the Law, or anything in Scripture is because God's Spirit prompts me to. I can do nothing on my own. And I have never said otherwise.
It seems to me that you are inferring a lot of things that aren't true, just for the sake of argument.
I did it myyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy..........
That's exactly why the Jews were concluded in unbelief.
They wanted to do it their way.
Just like everyone else who thinks they are "keeping" His Law. They are keeping their carnal understanding of His Spiritual Law. They are doing it their way.
But what is God's Way? Did the Lord Jesus Christ come so that you could go back to the law the same way as the hebrews of the OT? That's a pretty good understanding. But its tired and didn't work. We all need something better. Thankfully, for the sincere, we have the Lord Jesus Christ. You should look into that New Way. What have you been calling it? The new age way. I would suggest stop scoffing at it though if you have any chance of following it.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
he did, in his word tell us..
Gal 3: [SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ,[SUP][j][/SUP] that it should make the promise of no effect. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
You see the law was given for a purpose. When the purpose was filleted, it is no longer needed. FOr it could not do anythign anyway (as far as making us righteos (good people)
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Thanks
As do I. The OT is huge, The law only takes up a very small aspect of the book as a Whole. and is not the OT, there is so much to learn and do.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Yes,
But what good is the symbol to those who already have seen and acknowledge it and is looking forward to the physical kingdom of God?
Why do they need to go back and keep looking at the symbol, and not look to the physical, which applies to us now
Amen! That's why God instituted the feasts for "convocation."= "practice," and "rehearsal"
4744 miqra' mik-raw' from 7121; something called out, i.e. a public meeting (the act, the persons, or the place); also a rehearsal:--assembly, calling, convocation, reading.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Paul did not say this.
He said he figured out what sin was by the law.
Are you telling me Paul kept forgetting that coveting was a sin, He kept having to be told over and over?
I know us week fleshly people can be prety ignorant. But I do not think anyone can be that blind, especially after acknowledging he understood it in the first place (repenting)
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
there is no way they are reading it all.
Some people are trained to look for key words, they see them, and say, Yep I know what they believe, And make fools of themselves by claiming things which you never said to begin with.
Satan sure is not bound, His work is still very strong,
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
They have to have something to boast about.. Otherwise they would be lost. and have to admit how sinfull they really are.
So I had to cross look up your verse, because you have not actually posted the chapter and verse, because I figured context would explain a lot. And it DOES!!
First, it is Matt 5. That is the start of the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus is preaching the Beatitudes. Wonderful teaching on the Kingdom of God.
DO NOT THINK I HAVE COME TO ABOLISH THE LAW OR THE PROPHETS, BUT TO FULFILL THEM!
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.[SUP]18 [/SUP]For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Matt 5:17-20 ESV
Jesus is saying that the law does not save us, because we cannot possibly keep the laws, and neither could the scribes and Pharisees. I am not downgrading the importance of obeying God in all things, but Jesus clearly says in Verse 20, that if we think keeping the law makes us righteous, then we better be very careful that our law keeping exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, or we will never enter the Kingdom of God (Heaven is a Jewish euphemism for God in this phrase!)
Further, the word "abolish" or "relaxes" in Greek, is actually the word λύσω, which really means to loose or destroy. (It is the first verb you really parse, because it follows the rules perfectly in every tense!) So Jesus is saying he did not come to completely destroy the instructions or commandments (ἐντολῶν), but rather to bring a better way for us to not be constantly separated by sin from God, except for the sacrificial system. He fulfills the commandments because of who he is, and what he is going to do on the cross, not because of what we do! (Although I think if we all followed the words of the Beatitudes, and the 10 instructions of God found in Exodus 20:1-17 and repeated in Deut. 5:7-21, what a better world we would all have!)
Verse 20 comes with a huge qualifier of verse 5:19 that we simply cannot earn our way into the Kingdom of God!
The rest of the Sermon in chapter 5 of Matthew continues with all the ways we cannot obey the law, including anger, lust, divorce, oaths, and retaliation.
Then comes the key verses which we need to harken to. Love your neighbor, your enemies, and pray for those that persecute you.
"You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ [SUP]44 [/SUP]But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, [SUP]45 [/SUP]so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." Matt 5:43-45
Chapter 6 deals with:
Giving to the Needy (a big issue in both the Old Covenant and the New Covenant!)
The Lord's Prayer
Fasting in secret
Laying Up treasures in heaven
Not being anxious but trusting in God
Chapter 7 deals with:
Not judging others
Ask and it will be given
The Golden Rule
A Tree and its Fruits
I never knew you (referring to those who have done mighty works, but never known the Lord: a warning for the Prosperity
Gospel!)
Build your house on the Rock
And finally, Jesus ends the Sermon on the Mount and people were astonished at this teaching - because he was teaching as one who had authority.
"[SUP]28 [/SUP]And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, [SUP]29 [/SUP]for he was teaching them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes." Matt 7:28
Following Jesus is never about us keeping the law, but rather following the words and the person of Jesus Christ. He is the authority, and he is the way, the truth and the life.
And when you pull a verse like Matt 5:19, which comes from such an important part of the Bible - Jesus public teaching to the ordinary people, you need to look at the context of the whole Sermon, which is three chapters long!!
And do notice, that other than divorce (adultery) really, the whole Sermon is fresh and exciting. It is not about keeping 613 Old Testament laws, or the Sabbath (I think if it was that important, Jesus would have mentioned it here!) or any other Old Testament laws, nor about Feast Days or how to worship God (with or without instruments??)
It is about new laws, written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit, when we walk with Christ!
“This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,” Hebrews 10:16
Getting back to the title of the OP, this is why keeping the commandments are not enough to make you a Christian!
You're right, I didn't include the rest of the verses because we were talking about a couple of words in that specific verse.
And I recognize fully that obedience, or even the lack thereof, has no effect on our salvation. If it did, we would be in big trouble.
My point in posting that verse is that Jesus tells His followers that they are to do the law, and to teach others to do the same.
M
MidniteWelder
Guest
Addressing EG, (at the top of the page outside the quote box, have no idea why your name is in there unless he was quoting you.)
EG sir, Can we establish something to help others out.
What is your definition of a law?
What I see its function as, is a directive that if broken you are disciplined, and immediately held accountable under a form of judgement.
For instance...if one speeds they are issued a ticket with a penalty.
Grace on the other hand would be an officer giving a warning and some enlightenment and letting you on your way.
Are any of us exempt and no longer disciplined by God?
If not, is such a person still not being tutored?
{Gal 3:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”[SUP][e][/SUP] [SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”[SUP][f][/SUP] [SUP]12 [/SUP]Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”[SUP][g][/SUP]
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law,}
redeemed us from the curse does not equate to forget or throw out the message written within the law.
Just because we are no longer under the penalty of the law does not mean we should no longer abide by its message or principal.
Similar to if one no longer received the penalty of a ticket for breaking the law for speeding...
This does not mean that one should suddenly drive as fast or as wrecklessly as they wish.
The principal behind the reason a law was established (because of transgressions) still holds true.
A law would not need to be made had there not been a reason.
The reasons behind why God laid out certain guidelines are because certain people did not love God nor their neighbor nor themselves.
If one loved the Lord their neighbor and themselves they would commit no transgression.
Therefore there would be no reason to make a law to dictate and discipline behavior.
This is why it is said...
The law is not meant for the righteous...(because the righteous would do no wrong in the first place)
The law is for the unrighteous.
This does not mean the righteous are allowed to do as they please (not saying you are suggesting this EG, but those less informed do take it as such so we should be careful how we teach this precept to others, I dont know how many people I have seen justify their sin because they have been told they are no longer under the law, as if they are now suddenly above the law
equal to the lawmaker, thereby suddenly committing idolatry)If one takes on the premise that they are exempt and all things permissible in the sense there are no consequences so do as you wish simply because one may not be penalized for it immediately.... could thereby create another reason to make another law.
For instance smoking pot.
Should God have to say dont smoke pot.
Well it doesnt say we cannot in the bible right?
And if I'm righteous i dont transgress the law.
So if it doesnt say so then am I allowed to do it?
Does God really have to make such a thing a law?
To those who may not understand well, when it says all things are permissible it means more that yeah..God will let ya do as you want. He PERMITS IT. But he didnt say one would not have to answer for it.
[SUP]
{25 [/SUP]But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.}
No longer under a tutor once you have learned it.
When you graduate with your PHD, you are also no longer under a tutor
But once graduating one doesn't suddenly do away with everything they had been taught as a pupil (disciple)
But even then, is there still nothing left to be learned?
some of us just comprehend fully the reason the law was given..
some of us evidently have not comprehended this. and want to remain under a tutor. and condemn those of us who understand the reason for the law and why it was given.
so sad.
What should be made more clear is that too many focus on the word or letter of the law instead of where the word originated from.
If God told us go to that church over there and help build it.
Should we ask God...
Is that a law or a command or your opinion Lord?
Can I think about it?
Can I decide if I wanna because I kinda got other things I had planned to do ...for you Lord.
If the law has been fulfilled, it is because Christ fulfilled it by living it out.
The word itself may bring us to the origin of the word (bring you to Christ) but that's the best way he can communicate with us at first. Because we're actually making a point to listen when we're reading
But once you're in Christ...Once the foundation has been laid...Then he can talk to us personally.
Then a person has ears to hear.
The law is not meant for the righteous, but for the unrighteous.
If one is righteous, will they have any need to be disciplined since that one would no longer commit transgression against God?
If God chooses to issue grace(a warning and try not to do that again)
as opposed to discipline (punishment or judgement) there is still the same thing to be learned under the very same principal any law was given.
Though the consequences may have changed(depending strictly upon Gods mercy), The principal behind the directive from God still holds the same truth.
Instead of defining laws commandments etc...I believe Christ was trying to help us see that we need to be looking at the motives, reasons and principals behind what God asks of us.
Whether there is a penalty under any law or not, we should still do what is right by God.
If we consider ourselves as righteous (and the good book says there is none
) but still...we must still follow Gods directions the very with the same fervent attitude.Christs big message was...dont follow me just because you fear the punishment for not.
Follow me and my commands simply because you love me.
Last edited:
I disagree with the Use of terms like JEW Gentile Law out of context, as they could mean anything o nothing.
and if you careful not to be anti-semite, People should also be careful to be anti-gentile.
In regards of always...we find agreement, but the facts in the ground, proves Jews were not Under Grace!
And my point is "Which laws??"
Not the 613 Torah laws, but the ones written on our hearts. I am certain that would include the 10 instructions, but we are to obey Christ - and that includes a lot harder things than just the 10 instructions, or the Levitical laws!
it appears some lay people have invested their time in Old Testament studies. this would be a very good thing, if they understood what they were reading. but, these people are not trained scholars, and therefore are dangerous, since with so much time and effort invested, they must find a way to carry their findings (many of which are valuable) forward and force the old covenant to blend with or worse to be in effect alongside or even worse to be merely an addition or heightening of The New Covenant. they must interact with the church, apparently to reveal this return to Mosaic law.
sadly for them, the Old Covenant is abolished.
we have Christ the lord to thank for this, since a better covenant was needed.
yet, today's pharisees will not have it. what a shame they will not accept the inspired teachings of the greatest pharisee of all who called all his accomplishments under the law (blameless) before Christ interrupted his hell-destination (not just his membership in the sect of the pharisees) excrement.
dung if you prefer. all dung.