Attack of the Judaizers

[Hoffco]

Jesus is very clear of the need of the new birth for salvation and the necessity of holiness for salvation. Mt.12:33-37 "Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. "Brood of vipers!" How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. "A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. "But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of in the day of judgment."For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."" We have to be born of God to have a good heart. This first step of Sanctification has to happen by God's power , before we can bring forth good works. Then Jesus says by the result of the new birth we will speak good words and this leads to being Justified by our good words. or good works as James 2:24 says. In Jh. 5:28-29 Jesus is very clear to say, "those who have done GOOD have a resurrection to Life." We must never set one side of the truth, against the other side of truth. To be honest with the Bible's teaching : We must say, We are Justified by three means, ways,: By GRACE, Romans 3:24 Tit.3:7 THEN by, FAITH, Rom.3:25 etc. THEN by, WORKS, Rom.2:13 James 2:24 Mt.12:37 etc. This is the clear teaching of the Bible. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

Jesus gives the parable of the sower/soils in Mt.13 in v.8"But others (seeds) fell on GOOD ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!" And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables? He answered and said to them,, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given." The disciples were part of the ELECT of God's love to be saved and conformed to the image of Christ. to be holy by the new birth, Holy calling,. That is why they are given a GOOD heart so to love God and follow Jesus. This is the first thing promised in the new cov. a new heart, then their sins are forgiven. Jer.31:31-34 Eze.36:26-37 Heb. 8:10-13 10:16-18 Sanctification first, Justification second. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[danschance]

Jesus is very clear of the need of the new birth for salvation and the necessity of holiness for salvation. Mt.12:33-37 "Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. "Brood of vipers!" How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. "A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. "But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of in the day of judgment."For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."" We have to be born of God to have a good heart. This first step of Sanctification has to happen by God's power , before we can bring forth good works. Then Jesus says by the result of the new birth we will speak good words and this leads to being Justified by our good words. or good works as James 2:24 says. In Jh. 5:28-29 Jesus is very clear to say, "those who have done GOOD have a resurrection to Life." We must never set one side of the truth, against the other side of truth. To be honest with the Bible's teaching : We must say, We are Justified by three means, ways,: By GRACE, Romans 3:24 Tit.3:7 THEN by, FAITH, Rom.3:25 etc. THEN by, WORKS, Rom.2:13 James 2:24 Mt.12:37 etc. This is the clear teaching of the Bible. Love to all, Hoffco

I have a question. What do you consider to be the type of works one is justified by? Can you show examples of this?

 

[Hoffco]

To danschance, Your post 2383 is the right question to ask. "the type of works one is Justified by?" Because the Bible teaches that the "ungodly" "lawless" person is not saved. Jesus said they are the "deeds" works that come from a "good" heart and a "good" tree. (see parables. also in Jh.3:19-21 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds my be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." 1Thess.1:3 "your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope ..." Hebrews 6:1 calls us to "repentance from dead works" ( which is a call to works of faith in Jesus name) 6:9-10 "things that accompany salvation" "your work and labor of love" . Rev.22:14 "..who do His commandments..." These would be the commandments of the N.T.. The list goes on and on and on. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[danschance]

To danschance, Your post 2383 is the right question to ask. "the type of works one is Justified by?" Because the Bible teaches that the "ungodly" "lawless" person is not saved. Jesus said they are the "deeds" works that come from a "good" heart and a "good" tree. (see parables. also in Jh.3:19-21 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds my be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." 1Thess.1:3 "your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope ..." Hebrews 6:1 calls us to "repentance from dead works" ( which is a call to works of faith in Jesus name) 6:9-10 "things that accompany salvation" "your work and labor of love" . Rev.22:14 "..who do His commandments..." These would be the commandments of the N.T.. The list goes on and on and on. Love to all, Hoffco

I agree that a work associated with faith comes from the heart, as you said. I recall a pastor telling me as a child: "Faith that your car will start but a work of faith is when you put the key in the ignition and expect it to start". Yet work can never earn salvation. Like my LDS friend thinks.

The LDS say "Grace, after all I can do" and it is a misapplication of faith and works. Many, even Christians think we must do things to earn our faith. Which we can never do. Our salvation is not linked to our performance. It is linked to the right attitudes in our heart.

 

[phil112]

................. I recall a pastor telling me as a child: "Faith that your car will start but a work of faith is when you put the key in the ignition and expect it to start"...................

True faith is when you don't check the trunk to make sure your jumper cables are there, then get in and fasten the seatbelt before turning the key.

 

[ProphetExcalibur]

I have a question. What do you consider to be the type of works one is justified by? Can you show examples of this?

Hey Danschance, I'm very tired and soon off to bed! Work comes early this week!
Your thread likes about 20 views to be at 20,000 views!

So whether one was for, or against some things, this subject hit a nerve with a lot of folks in here!
Several other threads were started because of it,
and at least one person lest cc after starting a thread from it!

Anyway God in you stuck it out there, and I've personally enjoyed reading all the posts and being part of it.
So Congrats! Well done! Good form!
And you've been an excellent host, even when myself and the Hoff weren't in the best of form!
just my thoughts

 

[danschance]

Hey Danschance, I'm very tired and soon off to bed! Work comes early this week!
Your thread likes about 20 views to be at 20,000 views!

So whether one was for, or against some things, this subject hit a nerve with a lot of folks in here!
Several other threads were started because of it,
and at least one person lest cc after starting a thread from it!

Anyway God in you stuck it out there, and I've personally enjoyed reading all the posts and being part of it.
So Congrats! Well done! Good form!
And you've been an excellent host, even when myself and the Hoff weren't in the best of form!
just my thoughts

It has been interesting but if I had it all over to do, I would of avoided the use of the term "judaizer" as it offended some. Yet others out right claimed to be judaizer yet others claimed it is a hurtful Nazi term. I was never meant to be a name to call others but it was meant to be a descriptive label for those Christians who teach gentile Christians to live as the Jews do, in part or in whole. Stilly said a better label might of been "people of the shadow" based on Col. 2:16-17.

Either way it was meant to expose how harmful it is to define a religion on your own terms and not listen to God.

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Gal 5:18

 

[ProphetExcalibur]

It has been interesting but if I had it all over to do, I would of avoided the use of the term "judaizer" as it offended some. Yet others out right claimed to be judaizer yet others claimed it is a hurtful Nazi term. I was never meant to be a name to call others but it was meant to be a descriptive label for those Christians who teach gentile Christians to live as the Jews do, in part or in whole. Stilly said a better label might of been "people of the shadow" based on Col. 2:16-17.

Either way it was meant to expose how harmful it is to define a religion on your own terms and not listen to God.

Never the less, I believe it should be left just as you put it, Judaizer is a perfect term,
for the subject matter which is at hand! Well Done!!

 

[Frosty]

Wow! So many views on one subject. The term 'Judaizer' was first used when Antiochus Epiphanes created a law
that forbade anyone from following the laws that God had laid down, whether you were a Jew or Gentile convert. If you circumcised your child, you died. When you read scripture, what were the new converts doing? They were zealous for the law (Acts 21;20), still keeping the Sabbath and the other yearly Sabbaths. This is in line also with what the Messiah stated. Nothing will disappear from Torah until heaven and earth are passed. Malachi in chapter 4 reminds the saved ones who are walking on the ashes of the wicked to remember the laws of Moses and the statutes and the judgements. Isaiah 65 and 66 talk about the King returning to punish those who eat swines flesh and have abominable things in their pots.
The Sabbath was a eternal sign between God and His people. Are we not engrafted in? According to Hebrews, the renewed covenant was made with the same people that the old covenant was made with. The gates of Jerusalem each have a tribe written on them. If I am to engraft myself in to them (the House of Judah and the House of Israel) wouldn't I keep the same laws as they do? Thats what Moses says. If there were foreigners among them, it was the same law for everybody.
Can I keep the law perfectly? No, I am just as sinful as the next guy, but I believe thats where grace comes in.
One of the biggest sayings Christians have is WWJD. Well we see Him keeping the law, and the feasts and doing what I cannot do. He took my place. Now through grace, I can be saved. In Hebrews where it does talk about the new covenant, it mentions the law twice and grace not once. The bible cannot contradict itself from one end to the other, and if we throw all the Jewish stuff out, it will contradict itself from one end to the other. I am reminded of just before Stephen was stoned. They accused him of saying Jesus would destroy the temple (He did) and that he was trying to change the customs of Moses. He wasn't. This is what the churches today teach. The laws of Moses were done away with. The only trouble is, the New Testament says these were brought on by false witnesses. In other words Stephan was not teaching that.
I am always open minded and not saying I am completely correct in everything, but when I take the bible as a whole, the law just seems to stand out, not that I can ever keep it perfectly. The Greek word for Torah, was translated as nomia or nomos, and it is interesting to read what the Messiah said the people He tells that "I know you not" do not have. He also states that "if you love me, keep my commandments" Thats is pretty plain. I have often asked teachers in different churches that if some laws changed and some didn't, how do I know as a Christian trying to do what pleases God because I love Him which laws apply and which ones don't? No one has been able to answer me. Even the one they use about the Sabbath (Acts 20;7) the Greek word used is 'Sabbaton'. Where the word 'Easter" is used in the KJV, the Greek word is for Passover. Easter, Christmas, and all the other pagan sun god worship festivals have been Christianized for us to worship with. Is not this exactly what the bible tells us not to do? Instead of following Gods festivals and His time clock, man looks to pagan festivals and the solar calendar. Many people think that Passover has been completely fulfilled since the Messiah was the representation of the lamb. Luke 22:16 states that it will be fulfilled in the New Kingdom. It has a future fulfillment. These are just my thoughts. In my humble opinion, if you are not looking at the scriptures with a Hebraic mindset, you will miss a whole lot.

 

[Grandpa]

I have often asked teachers in different churches that if some laws changed and some didn't, how do I know as a Christian trying to do what pleases God because I love Him which laws apply and which ones don't? No one has been able to answer me. .

Our High Priest has changed and so there is a change in the Law as well.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Law of sin and death? What's that?

2 Corinthians 3:6-8
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

Only one set of laws was written on stones.

1 Corinthians 15:56-57

[SUP]56 [/SUP]The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
[SUP]57 [/SUP]But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The strength of sin is the law. What law? The ministration of death written on stones.

So you have a choice. Continue working at the law of sin and death written stones or come to the Lord Jesus and be given rest from this Heavy Burden.

Matthew 11:28-30

[SUP]28 [/SUP]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

The Hebraic mindset is susceptible to slavery. The mind of Christ is much better. This is where Liberty is found.

 

[danschance]

Our High Priest has changed and so there is a change in the Law as well.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Law of sin and death? What's that?

2 Corinthians 3:6-8
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

Only one set of laws was written on stones.

1 Corinthians 15:56-57

[SUP]56 [/SUP]The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
[SUP]57 [/SUP]But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The strength of sin is the law. What law? The ministration of death written on stones.

So you have a choice. Continue working at the law of sin and death written stones or come to the Lord Jesus and be given rest from this Heavy Burden.

Matthew 11:28-30

[SUP]28 [/SUP]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

The Hebraic mindset is susceptible to slavery. The mind of Christ is much better. This is where Liberty is found.

Amen.

Once I was driving on a very bumpy dirt road. I drove very fast so my tires would only hit the high spots so the truck would drive a bit smoother. Frosty above, seems to be doing the same thing. He gleans the new testament for the word law and all phrases that support keeping the law. Yet he ignores everything else that does not support his half baked ideas. He points out a scripture (Acts 21:20)that says Jews who belelive in Jesus also kept the law but in the very next verse:

and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses Acts 21:21

In the same chapter it states:

25But as for the Gentiles who have believed, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled,[SUP]d[/SUP] and from sexual immorality.” Acts 21:25

So clearly he is ignoring the parts of the bible that disagree with his judaizing.

Grandps hit the nail on the head by posting:

For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. Hebrews 7:12

 

[Elin]

Wow! So many views on one subject.
The term 'Judaizer' was first used when Antiochus Epiphanes created a law
that forbade anyone from following the laws that God had laid down, whether you were a Jew or Gentile convert.

You don't know Scripture very well.

Paul created the term (Ioudaizo) in Gal 2:14, which means "to live as do the Jews."

Your self-serving explanation is false.

 

[Grandpa]

Amen.

Once I was driving on a very bumpy dirt road. I drove very fast so my tires would only hit the high spots so the truck would drive a bit smoother. Frosty above, seems to be doing the same thing. He gleans the new testament for the word law and all phrases that support keeping the law. Yet he ignores everything else that does not support his half baked ideas. He points out a scripture (Acts 21:20)that says Jews who belelive in Jesus also kept the law but in the very next verse:

In the same chapter it states:

So clearly he is ignoring the parts of the bible that disagree with his judaizing.

Grandps hit the nail on the head by posting:

Some haven't had this change of High Priest.

2 Corinthians 3:14-18
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

 

[JesusLives]

True faith is when you don't check the trunk to make sure your jumper cables are there, then get in and fasten the seatbelt before turning the key.

Another kind of faith is knowing my jumper cables are in the trunk of the car.

 

[JesusLives]

Our High Priest has changed and so there is a change in the Law as well.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Law of sin and death? What's that?

2 Corinthians 3:6-8
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

Only one set of laws was written on stones.

1 Corinthians 15:56-57

[SUP]56 [/SUP]The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
[SUP]57 [/SUP]But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The strength of sin is the law. What law? The ministration of death written on stones.

So you have a choice. Continue working at the law of sin and death written stones or come to the Lord Jesus and be given rest from this Heavy Burden.

Matthew 11:28-30

[SUP]28 [/SUP]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

The Hebraic mindset is susceptible to slavery. The mind of Christ is much better. This is where Liberty is found.

I always thought that the law of sin and death was different from the law of God and what happens to the verse that says sin is transgression of the law?

 

[JesusLives]

Amen.

Once I was driving on a very bumpy dirt road. I drove very fast so my tires would only hit the high spots so the truck would drive a bit smoother. Frosty above, seems to be doing the same thing. He gleans the new testament for the word law and all phrases that support keeping the law. Yet he ignores everything else that does not support his half baked ideas. He points out a scripture (Acts 21:20)that says Jews who belelive in Jesus also kept the law but in the very next verse:

In the same chapter it states:

So clearly he is ignoring the parts of the bible that disagree with his judaizing.

Grandps hit the nail on the head by posting:For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. Hebrews 7:12

It was clearly state I came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it. So Jesus plainly states that He was not destroying the law that His death fulfilled the law where we humans fail to do so. God's law still stands as the rules of His government not one jot or tittle has changed. Jesus fulfilled it with His death on the cross and by His Grace we are saved. But God's law still stand as His law. Jesus is our High Priest in heaven interceding on our behalf before the Father. His blood covers us and we are made perfect through Jesus and what He has done for us.

 

[Grandpa]

I always thought that the law of sin and death was different from the law of God and what happens to the verse that says sin is transgression of the law?

The Law of sin and death is the ministration of death written on stone which is the 10 commandments.

The Law of God I can't find in my bible. I read the KJV. Is the Law of God in your bible?

Sin is transgression of the law. So what are you beholding? Your sin or your Redemption?

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

 

[danschance]

It was clearly state I came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it. So Jesus plainly states that He was not destroying the law that His death fulfilled the law where we humans fail to do so. God's law still stands as the rules of His government not one jot or tittle has changed. Jesus fulfilled it with His death on the cross and by His Grace we are saved. But God's law still stand as His law. Jesus is our High Priest in heaven interceding on our behalf before the Father. His blood covers us and we are made perfect through Jesus and what He has done for us.

While I agree that Jesus' work on the cross did not "destroy the law" but it fulfilled it. This is clearly taught in scripture. Yet you are sadly mistaken by thinking not a jot or tittle won't change, because it has. Concepts in scripture must be taken in context.

17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.18For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Matt 5:17-18

Judaizers love to quoate as you did but always leave off the last four words "UNTIL ALL IS ACCOMPLISHED". Jesus accomplised a change in the law on the cross. You simply must read all of the bible and not just the parts that supports your ideas.

The law has absolutely changed and the bible says so.

For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. Heb 7:12

Jesus became our high priest and this means there was also a change in the law.

 

[danschance]

I always thought that the law of sin and death was different from the law of God and what happens to the verse that says sin is transgression of the law?

Here is another favorite verse the Judaizers love to quote:

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 1John 3:4

They love to quote this verse because it says "law" which in their minds means "Mosaic law". However, in the Greek word for "law" in the above passage does not mean law at all. In Greek that word is "anomia" which means lawless. The KJV has it wrong and is leading nomian nuts on the freeway in the wrong direction. Look below at how a modern translation has translated this verse much more accurately than the 400 year old KJV.

Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 1 John 3:4