Churches of Christ with or without instruments, which is the right way to worship?

[LT]

I just go by what the bible teaches, you can have your opinion but does that make it right?

The Bible teaches us to praise God in every action we take. If that is music, then we also praise God with music.
To deny musicians the ability to use their God given gift to praise and glorify the gift giver, would be a sin, and causing them to bury their talents in the ground.

God is the Creator. God created music with the purpose of glorifying Himself.
Why deny God glory?

 

[MsLimpet]

The Bible teaches us to praise God in every action we take. If that is music, then we also praise God with music.
To deny musicians the ability to use their God given gift to praise and glorify the gift giver, would be a sin, and causing them to bury their talents in the ground.

God is the Creator. God created music with the purpose of glorifying Himself.
Why deny God glory?

Show me that with scripture...thx.

 

[LT]

Show me that with scripture...thx.

that God is Creator? look at Genesis 1 lol.

What do you need proof for?

That we should do all we do to glorify God?

1 Corinthians 10:30If I partake with thankfulness, why am I slandered concerning that for which I give thanks? 31Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God

Romans 14: 1 Accept into your group someone who is weak in faith, and do not argue about opinions.2 One person believes it is right to eat all kinds of food.[a] But another, who is weak, believes it is right to eat only vegetables. 3 The one who knows that it is right to eat any kind of food must not reject the one who eats only vegetables. And the person who eats only vegetables must not think that the one who eats all foods is wrong, because God has accepted that person.
----
6 Those who think one day is more important than other days are doing that for the Lord. And those who eat all kinds of food are doing that for the Lord, and they give thanks to God. Others who refuse to eat some foods do that for the Lord, and they give thanks to God. 7 We do not live or die for ourselves. 8 If we live, we are living for the Lord, and if we die, we are dying for the Lord. So living or dying, we belong to the Lord.
9 The reason Christ died and rose from the dead to live again was so he would be Lord over both the dead and the living. 10 So why do you judge your brothers or sisters in Christ? And why do you think you are better than they are? We will all stand before God to be judged.

 

[secularhermit]

If the introduction of playable instruments into the church is a "violation" of the law (or God´s will) what DEFINITION and punishment may apply for:

a) Introduction of false doctrines + herecies?
b) Microphones, high power speakers, video beams to show movies and plays on "the stage" of several churches I´ve visited?
c) Why so FEW people bypassed the teachings given on Ezk 34 , compared to John 10?
d) Why do we Christians assemble? To please us or to please those "leaders" some people love to seek?

It´s clears we love to be screwed up in concepts + contemptions.

 

[newbirth]

What it all boils down to, something you and others may (because it is simplified) understand,

If you were God, and you ordered a Big Mack, and someone at the counter thought you would like two quarter pounders better, would that make you happy? after all, you never told the person at the counter you do not want two quarter pounders, or any other thing on the menu... by you saying you wanted a "Big Mack" you "excluded" everything else on the menu...

God said in Col. 3:16 and Eph. 5:19 to "sing", that excludes all other music, period...

The fact that the verses in question :
[SUP]15 [/SUP]See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

[SUP]20 [/SUP]Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. [SUP]15 [/SUP]And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Am I to assume that we must only speak to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs... then it must be a sin to communicate with you via internet .period!
If you don't like instruments fine but don't say God doesn’t because he never told you so.


Blessed be the Elohim and Father of our Master Yahushua the Mashiyach,who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing which are in the heavenly places in

the Mashiyach,

 

[LT]

The principle should be clear. Be obedient to your conscience/convictions, because it is given by God, and as a Believer it is controlled by the Holy Spirit. But also, do not judge others for their convictions.

Also, don't cause others to stumble by burdening them with more rules, because it says in Romans 14:22
Your beliefs about these things should be kept secret between you and God. People are happy if they can do what they think is right without feeling guilty.


please read Romans 14, and see how this debate is so similar to the debate over what food a Believer can eat.

 

[LT]

In Romans 10:1-3, the Bible says, “Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness, that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.”

In Romans 10:1-3, Paul was saying it’s my heart’s desire, it’s my prayer that all of Israel shall be saved because they have a zeal for God, but here’s the problem. It’s not according to knowledge. And in verse 3 he says that they are “seeking to establish their own righteousness”. What does that mean, seeking to establish their own righteousness? They are going to do things the way they think they should do them. They’re going to do things the way they thing is best. And in doing so, they’re, quote, unquote, using their talents for God, but it’s not in the way that God has authorized or commanded.

In Isaiah 48:1, this is an Old Testament principle here that we can learn from that’s very similar to Romans 10:13. In Isaiah 48:1 the Bible says, “Hear this, O house of Jacob, who are called by the name of Israel, and have come forth from the well springs of Judah; who swear by the name of the Lord, and make mention of the God of Israel,” but notice this last part, “but not in truth or in righteousness.”

Timothy 2:11-14 puts a limitation on that. And so even though you may be a good speaker as a female, you can teach other women, but there are limitations.

God has commanded us to sing to Him, and He has commanded us that we give Him vocal music under new covenant worship. We cannot use mechanical instruments when it comes to New Testament worship; when it comes to Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs because God has not authorized that. And so that’s a very easy argument to refute when someone says it’s my talent, because it’s really not an argument at all, it’s just more of an emotional thing, not biblical.

The Israelites were seeking righteousness through the Law, and not Christ... that is what Paul was saying. The passage had nothing to do with doing what "they thought was best", but about ignoring the sacrifice of Christ, and putting their faith in their own good works instead of the finished work of Christ.

How you have twisted the Word of God! (or rather "how the Word of God has been twisted in your hearing")
Read your Bible for yourself.

 

[Timeline]

You can put your heart into anything. This does not mean that you cannot use instruments. On a couple of threads I am trying to explain why we are not required to keep the Sabbath, but to give our lives as a living sacrifice to God (To those that have no problem with instruments and on other threads trying to explain that instruments are not an issue to be troubled with (to those that feel no obligation to keep the Sabbath). Some of us that assemble on Sunday think that Sunday was clearly established as the day of worship when the Church of Acts met daily. There are only two verses after the gospels that say "first day of the week". One says "On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight (Acts20:7) and the other says "On the first day of every week each one of you is to put aside and save, as he may prosper, so that no collections be made when I come(1 Cor. 16:2). Neither one is a command requiring us to meet on Sunday or Saturday. I am not saying that it is bad to meet on Sunday, I am just saying that the first century church met daily. If there is a group that assembles every day, I commend you but most do not. Do not argue over instruments, it does not edify. It is not a salvation issue. If you think that it is, I wonder where your understanding of the law of death and the law of grace stands. Instruments have never been mentioned as a violation in the law, in the gospels, or anywhere in the bible.

 

[newbirth]

What it all boils down to, something you and others may (because it is simplified) understand,

If you were God, and you ordered a Big Mack, and someone at the counter thought you would like two quarter pounders better, would that make you happy? after all, you never told the person at the counter you do not want two quarter pounders, or any other thing on the menu... by you saying you wanted a "Big Mack" you "excluded" everything else on the menu...

God said in Col. 3:16 and Eph. 5:19 to "sing", that excludes all other music, period...

My friend I believe God wants his body to be of one mind, this discussion clearly shows we are divided over issues that ought not to do such. I cannot hold this thing over anyone . God says if any man does anything believing it is sin then to him it is sin.
BTW your analogy should be more like ... If God ordered a big mack and someone at the counter brought it wrapped in paper towels would he be offended. Musical Instruments are just a decoration for the songs.

[h=3]1 Thessalonians 5[/h][SUP]9 [/SUP]For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

[T-REX]

The principle should be clear. Be obedient to your conscience/convictions, because it is given by God, and as a Believer it is controlled by the Holy Spirit. But also, do not judge others for their convictions.

Also, don't cause others to stumble by burdening them with more rules, because it says in Romans 14:22
Your beliefs about these things should be kept secret between you and God. People are happy if they can do what they think is right without feeling guilty.


please read Romans 14, and see how this debate is so similar to the debate over what food a Believer can eat.

Interesting approach, if it feels good it is from God and you can do it,and hide it from others, i need to be taught more in this matter care to enlighten me more on this concept? seems its talking about judging others not keeping secrets. John 3:20For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.". so i am a little confused.when God told Moses in Leviticus to sacrifice a bull can you imagine how long and how big of a burden it would have been for Moses to go through the ENTIRE animal kingdom sacrificing everything that God didn't say man couldn't sacrifice? "if it feel good its from God so do it" philosophy seems like a dangerous doctrine to me. and seems contrary to scripture.

 

[Jabberjaw]

My friend I believe God wants his body to be of one mind, this discussion clearly shows we are divided over issues that ought not to do such. I cannot hold this thing over anyone . God says if any man does anything believing it is sin then to him it is sin.
BTW your analogy should be more like ... If God ordered a big mack and someone at the counter brought it wrapped in paper towels would he be offended. Musical Instruments are just a decoration for the songs.

1 Thessalonians 5

[SUP]9 [/SUP]For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Is it okay to "will worship"? is it okay to worship by "self imposed religion" ? because if one uses musical instruments "in worship" it becomes "will worship" or "self imposed religion" :

Colossians 2:23 (NKJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

 

[Timeline]

Interesting approach, if it feels good it is from God and you can do it,and hide it from others, i need to be taught more in this matter care to enlighten me more on this concept? seems its talking about judging others not keeping secrets. John 3:20For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.". so i am a little confused.when God told Moses in Leviticus to sacrifice a bull can you imagine how long and how big of a burden it would have been for Moses to go through the ENTIRE animal kingdom sacrificing everything that God didn't say man couldn't sacrifice? "if it feel good its from God so do it" philosophy seems like a dangerous doctrine to me. and seems contrary to scripture.

Then I guess is a good thing he didn't say, "sacrificing to one another in offering animals and grains, sacrificing and pouring blood with all your heart to the Lord; (Divisions 5:19)

 

[T-REX]

Then I guess is a good thing he didn't say, "sacrificing to one another in offering animals and grains, sacrificing and pouring blood with all your heart to the Lord; (Divisions 5:19)

That IS good, yikes!But it still seems rather then worship how God authorized it is still just as scary and such a huge burden to put everything under the sun into it because it feels good.

 

[mailmandan]

Even in the perfect worship of heaven they use harps to aid their praise to God - And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth (Revelation 14:2-3).


In the Old Testament, we read in 2 Chronicles 5:11-14 - And it came to pass when the priests came out of the Most Holy Place (for all the priests who were present had sanctified themselves, without keeping to their divisions), and the Levites who were the singers, all those of Asaph and Heman and Jeduthun, with their sons and their brethren, stood at the east end of the altar, clothed in white linen, having cymbals, stringed instruments and harps, and with them one hundred and twenty priests sounding with trumpets-- indeed it came to pass, when the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the Lord, and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of music, and praised the Lord, saying: "For He is good, For His mercy endures forever.."


Ephesians 5:19 says "..speaking to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.." and correspondingly Colossians 3:16 says to, "..admonish one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs." The word "psalm" in the Greek dictionary, definition (#5568): "A set piece of music, i.e. a sacred ode (accompanied with the voice, harp, or other instrument)." The root word of psalm is "psallo" which means to means "to twitch, twang or pluck," such as pluck a string of a musical instrument.


If the church of Christ wants to leave out musical instruments in their worship, that is their prerogative. But I don't believe that it's right for them to judge and condemn everyone else who chooses to use musical instruments like David did, as the angels in Heaven do and as the Apostle Paul instructed.

 

[Jabberjaw]

The Israelites were seeking righteousness through the Law, and not Christ... that is what Paul was saying. The passage had nothing to do with doing what "they thought was best", but about ignoring the sacrifice of Christ, and putting their faith in their own good works instead of the finished work of Christ.

How you have twisted the Word of God! (or rather "how the Word of God has been twisted in your hearing")
Read your Bible for yourself.

How was that post twisting the word of God? is not worshiping outside of the way the bible tells us will worshiping?

Colossians 2:23 (NKJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

Colossians 2:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

 

[SeaBass]

There is no Bible verse that restricts music in church. Funny thing to me is how these denominations try to make themselves holier that others because by making up things that are not biblical. If you choose to be at a church without music that is your preference and not a sin. If you claim it to be prove it by scripture where it says not to use music in church. Its amazing that God gives people talent to play but restricts them from using it in church. I guess using a pa system is a sin to since then did not have it in early church either.

Where is the verse that restricted Noah from using oak wood to build the ark? Since that verse does not exist, Noah could have built the ark out of oak wood?

Where is the verse to restrict using peanuts and orange juice for the Lord's Supper? Since that verse does not exist, these items can be used for the Lord's Supper?


All the NT commands Christians to do is "sing". Where does man get the authority to change that?

Using PA system is a matter of expediency in that it aids in helping people with hearing in what is being said, it changes nothing about the command to sing.

In Mt 28:19,20 Jesus commanded his disciples to go into all the would and teach. Since in this context Jesus did not authorize a specific mode of transportation/communication, then how were the disciple to go and teach?

 

[Jabberjaw]

The principle should be clear. Be obedient to your conscience/convictions, because it is given by God, and as a Believer it is controlled by the Holy Spirit. But also, do not judge others for their convictions.

Also, don't cause others to stumble by burdening them with more rules, because it says in Romans 14:22
Your beliefs about these things should be kept secret between you and God. People are happy if they can do what they think is right without feeling guilty.


please read Romans 14, and see how this debate is so similar to the debate over what food a Believer can eat.

I have not seen you produce any scripture that authorizes Instrumental music in NT worship? and I have produced scripture that says one cannot worship as they please, it is called "self imposed religion" :

Colossians 2:21-23 (NKJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]"Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,"
[SUP]22 [/SUP]which all concern things which perish with the using--according to the commandments and doctrines of men?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

 

[Shava]

I find this information from MsLimpet to be exactly what I have said in the past. As a member of the Church of Christ our belief is that instruments are not authorized in worship. If this is the reason why she was banned then I assume I'm next, because this is what I believe to be what the bible says on the use of instruments. Everybody believes differently for a variety of reasons and I respect that.Originally Posted by MsLimpet

In Romans 10:1-3, the Bible says, “Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness, that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.”

In Romans 10:1-3, Paul was saying it’s my heart’s desire, it’s my prayer that all of Israel shall be saved because they have a zeal for God, but here’s the problem. It’s not according to knowledge. And in verse 3 he says that they are “seeking to establish their own righteousness”. What does that mean, seeking to establish their own righteousness? They are going to do things the way they think they should do them. They’re going to do things the way they thing is best. And in doing so, they’re, quote, unquote, using their talents for God, but it’s not in the way that God has authorized or commanded.

In Isaiah 48:1, this is an Old Testament principle here that we can learn from that’s very similar to Romans 10:13. In Isaiah 48:1 the Bible says, “Hear this, O house of Jacob, who are called by the name of Israel, and have come forth from the well springs of Judah; who swear by the name of the Lord, and make mention of the God of Israel,” but notice this last part, “but not in truth or in righteousness.”

Timothy 2:11-14 puts a limitation on that. And so even though you may be a good speaker as a female, you can teach other women, but there are limitations.

God has commanded us to sing to Him, and He has commanded us that we give Him vocal music under new covenant worship. We cannot use mechanical instruments when it comes to New Testament worship; when it comes to Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs because God has not authorized that. And so that’s a very easy argument to refute when someone says it’s my talent, because it’s really not an argument at all, it’s just more of an emotional thing, not biblical.

 

[SeaBass]

If my boss ordered a Big Mac, and I brought him a Big Mac and a coffee, I'm sure he'd accept the coffee too.

The analogy is mute, because we still sing. It is called 'accompaniment', which means it accompanies the singing of psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.

The argument for exclusivity is ridiculous, and outside of logic.

The point overlooked is that if the boss asked for a Big Mac and you brought him a Big Mac and coffee, then you did NOT do as the boss said. You further erred by ASSUMING the boss would accept the coffee. God commanded to sing and man has no right/authority to ASSUME what God wants when God already said what He wants. And God does not change His mind about His command for Christians to sing.

Following your "logic", anyone can ASSUME anything they want to into the bible.

 

[Shava]

Even in the perfect worship of heaven they use harps to aid their praise to God - And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth (Revelation 14:2-3).


In the Old Testament, we read in 2 Chronicles 5:11-14 - And it came to pass when the priests came out of the Most Holy Place (for all the priests who were present had sanctified themselves, without keeping to their divisions), and the Levites who were the singers, all those of Asaph and Heman and Jeduthun, with their sons and their brethren, stood at the east end of the altar, clothed in white linen, having cymbals, stringed instruments and harps, and with them one hundred and twenty priests sounding with trumpets-- indeed it came to pass, when the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the Lord, and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of music, and praised the Lord, saying: "For He is good, For His mercy endures forever.."


Ephesians 5:19 says "..speaking to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.." and correspondingly Colossians 3:16 says to, "..admonish one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs." The word "psalm" in the Greek dictionary, definition (#5568): "A set piece of music, i.e. a sacred ode (accompanied with the voice, harp, or other instrument)." The root word of psalm is "psallo" which means to means "to twitch, twang or pluck," such as pluck a string of a musical instrument.


If the church of Christ wants to leave out musical instruments in their worship, that is their prerogative. But I don't believe that it's right for them to judge and condemn everyone else who chooses to use musical instruments like David did, as the angels in Heaven do and as the Apostle Paul instructed.

As a member of the Church of Christ I agree with you that we are not to condemn or judge others for choosing to use instruments. As a Christian we are to defend our reason on why we do not use instruments so others will know why we do what we do and where we get our authority to refrain from the use of instruments in worship. We get our authority from God who has commanded us through these verses, Colossians 3:16 and Ephesians 5:19 to obey. Some people say this isn't what these verses mean, and I respect that, don't accept it, but do respect it. There are many reasons why people see things differently and for that reason we or anybody else have no right to judge them in what they believe. Harps that you speak of are in the future, we have to abide by the N.T. for now, and it says no instruments are to be used in worship is what I understand it to say.