Churches of Christ with or without instruments, which is the right way to worship?

[KSublett]

H2167 MESSAGE by the Spirit OF Christ: Just one of the TOTAL which anyone who sees God as being honored by human Rhetoric, singing, playing instruments, acting or dancing while Jesus promises to be our ONLY Teacher when the elders obey the command to teach that WHICH HAS BEEN taught.

Abaddon or Apollyon is unleashed as the king of the locusts which are MUSES for we readers. The role of the muses or sorcerers or locust is to PRUNE the vine by separating those with the MARK of the beast from those marked by the Word of God.

When the Spirit OF Christ uses this PRUNING THE VINE Word it is not a pretty sight: they will go singing and clapping all the way. That's the destiny.

Isaiah 5:1 Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard.
......My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:
Isaiah 5:2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof,
......and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein:
......and he looked that it should bring forth grapes,
......and it brought forth wild grapes. [grapes of Sodom.]
Isaiah 5:3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah,
...... judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.
Isaiah 5:4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it?
......wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?
Isaiah 5:5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard:
............I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up;
............and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:
Isaiah 5:6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged;
......but there shall come up briers and thorns:
......I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.
............Songs in the temple will be howling (praise singing) while the people hunger and thirst for the WORD.
Isaiah 5:7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant:
.......and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.

clāmo the chirping of a cricket: “(cicada) the LOCUSTS Of the roaring of waters, the rustling of trees
I. a. [Sanscr. kar-, to celebrate; Gr. kaleō, klētos; cf.: clarus, classis, nomenclator, concilium].

The kingdom does not come to these observations.

​

Isaiah 5:8 Woe unto them that join house to house, that lay field to field,
......till there be no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth!
Isaiah 5:9 In mine ears said the LORD of hosts,
......Of a truth many houses shall be desolate, even great and fair, without inhabitant.
Isaiah 5:10 Yea, ten acres of vineyard shall yield one bath, and the seed of an homer shall yield an ephah.
Isaiah 5:11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning,
......that they may follow strong drink;
......that continue until night, till wine inflame them!
Isaiah 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts:
............but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands.
Isaiah 5:13 Therefore my people are gone into captivity,
......because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished,
......and their multitude dried up with thirst.
Isaiah 5:14 Therefore HELL hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure:

............and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

trĭumpho B. Trop., to triumph, exult, be glad, rejoice exceedingly: “exsultare laetitiā, triumphare gaudio,” Cic. Clu. 5, 14; cf.: “laetaris tu in omnium gemitu et triumphas

gaudĭum the outward expressions of joy: “feminarum praecipue et gaudia insignia erant et luctus​

infernus , a, um, adj. infer, I. lower, that which lies beneath
underground, belonging to the Lower Regions, infernal: “rex,” Pluto
“infernas umbras carminibus elicere,” to raise the dead by magical incantations,
​

sublīmis B. In partic., of language, lofty, elevated, sublime (freq. in Quint.): “sublimia carmina,” Juv. 7, 28: “verbum,” Quint. 8, 3, 18: “clara et sublimia verba,” id. ib.: “oratio,” id. 8, 3, 74: “genus dicendi,” id. 11, 1, 3:
of orators, poets, sophos

sophos , ē, on, A.skilled in any handicraft or art, clever,
Margites Fr.2; but in this sense mostly of poets and musicians, Pi.O.1.9, P.1.42, 3.113; en kithara s. E.IT1238 .; also en oiōnois, kithara, E. IT662, 1238 (lyr.); “​

Isaiah 5:15 And the mean man shall be brought down,
............and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled:

If you want to do that when Jesus promises to be with us then THAT is exactly what God wants you to do. Many (most) are called or invited but FEW (a tiny numbr) are chosen.

 

[iwant2serve]

There is no Bible verse that restricts music in church. Funny thing to me is how these denominations try to make themselves holier that others because by making up things that are not biblical. If you choose to be at a church without music that is your preference and not a sin. If you claim it to be prove it by scripture where it says not to use music in church. Its amazing that God gives people talent to play but restricts them from using it in church. I guess using a pa system is a sin to since then did not have it in early church either.

 

[posthuman]

H2167 MESSAGE by the Spirit OF Christ

[TABLE="width: 599"]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]

Therefore I will give thanks​

[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]

h3034​

[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]

יָדָה yadah​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]

unto thee, O LORD,​

[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]

h3068​

[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]

יְהֹוָה Yĕhovah​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]

among the heathen,​

[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]

h1471​

[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]

גּוֹי gowy​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]

and I will sing praises​

[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]

h2167​

[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]

זָמַר zamar​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]

unto thy name.​

[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]

h8034​

[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]

שֵׁם shem​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

2 Samuel 22:50

it is clear how God should be worshiped - with thanksgiving in our hearts, which brings forth the fruit of joy!

 

[Shava]

There is no Bible verse that restricts music in church. Funny thing to me is how these denominations try to make themselves holier that others because by making up things that are not biblical. If you choose to be at a church without music that is your preference and not a sin. If you claim it to be prove it by scripture where it says not to use music in church. Its amazing that God gives people talent to play but restricts them from using it in church. I guess using a pa system is a sin to since then did not have it in early church either.

Hey friend, hope you're having a wonderful peaceful night. A PA system would be considered an aid, where instruments would be an addition, plus we have commands to sing only, Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16 Breaking a command would be a sin, as far as punishment that would be up to God. People may worship with instruments and not realize it's a sin, so in these cases I don't think they would be at fault. Many people start out not knowing many things unintentional until they learn over time and then they realize and correct their mistake and refrain from doing it again, and some change churches when they realize there church there attending doesn't abide by N.T. pattern.

 

[secularhermit]

Nope: read again; I just said the opposite.

Thanks!

I got lost (and confused) but you said your "Nope" while some might have said a simple: "Yes".

I can live with it.

 

[secularhermit]

There is no Bible verse that restricts music in church. Funny thing to me is how these denominations try to make themselves holier that others because by making up things that are not biblical. If you choose to be at a church without music that is your preference and not a sin. If you claim it to be prove it by scripture where it says not to use music in church. Its amazing that God gives people talent to play but restricts them from using it in church. I guess using a pa system is a sin to since then did not have it in early church either.

Some legalistic "denominations" held their "rule" while hugging personal sins. I guess Jesus was against that but... I could be lost in tiny operational "sins"

 

[Jabberjaw]

Some legalistic "denominations" held their "rule" while hugging personal sins. I guess Jeus was against that but... I could be lost in tiny "sins"

????????????????

 

[presidente]

Abaddon or Apollyon is unleashed as the king of the locusts which are MUSES for we readers. The role of the muses or sorcerers or locust is to PRUNE the vine by separating those with the MARK of the beast from those marked by the Word of God.

This is the kind of cryptic writing that makes your posts so confusing, and the reason why people just don't read your posts (that and the pages of Latin definitions, since we have no idea why you are quoting them.)

Why do you bring up muses? Most of us don't get our understanding of doctrine from Greek mythology. Why don't you stick to the BIBLE? Where does the Bible mention the muses or say they have anything to do with Abaddon? What is your basis for saying that locusts are muses for the readers? That doesn't make sense to me, and I know what 'muses' were supposed to have been in ancient Greek.

You talk about the 'role of Muses'-- characters from Greek mythology, in your interpretation of scripture. Do you believe in real Muses? Are you some kind of pagan?

And what is the point of the Latin definitions? What does that have to do with anything?

If you bold something, people aren't going to understand all the ideas that go through your mind when you read that word and understand the connection in your mind between that word and your comments that follow. We aren't telepathic.

Your leaps between concepts aren't logical most of the time, and your readers have little idea what you are talking about. If any other posters agree or disagree with me, feel free to chime in.

 

[homwardbound]

Isn't it strange that the AUTHORITY for Instrumental Music (noise) comes from the Jacob-cursed and God-abandoned Levites when the godly Hebrews waited upon Shiloh. They waited in the synagogues where music was outlawed and would be just as adult as the musical mocking of Jesus while He died? The Hebrews KNEW but just didn't care.

Gen. 49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said,
Gather yourselves together,
that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.
Gen. 49:2 Gather yourselves together,
and hear, ye sons of Jacob;
and hearken unto Israel your father.
Gen. 49:3 Reuben, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength,
the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power:
Gen. 49:4 Unstable as water, thou shalt not excel;
because thou wentest up to thy father’s bed;
then defiledst thou it: he went up to my couch.

Defiled is g2490 translated "play the flute, steal people's inheritance, pollute or prostitute.

​

Gen. 49:5 Simeon and Levi are brethren;
instruments (h3617 weapon, psaltery)
of cruelty are in their habitations.
(stabbing, dig through furnace, for burning
Bellor fight, carry on war,
Gen. 49:6 O my soul,
come not thou into their secret;
unto their assembly,
mine honour,
be not thou united:
for in their anger they slew a man,
and in their selfwill they digged down a wall.

H6951 qâhâl kaw-hawl From H6950 ; assemblage (usually concretely):—assembly, company,
congregation, multitude.Consilior to take counsel, to consult,
​

h5475 Sod h3245 session, deliberaton, secret.
h3519 Kabod the glory or darkness of the temple​

Coitus come A. Abstr., a coming or meeting together, an assembling:
A. A uniting, joining together, combination

​

Gen. 49:7 Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel:
I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel.

Divido I. To force asunder, part, separate, divide (very freq. and class.; cf.: distribuo, dispertio
findo, scindo, dirimo, divello, separo, sejungo, segrego, secerno).

1 Chron 25:1 MOREOVER David and the Commanders of the Army separated to the
service [Abadoh same as Abaddon worship of the starry host] of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman,
and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy [soothsay-sorcery] with harps, with psalteries,
and with cymbals: and the number of the workmen according to their service was:

H623 ’âsâph aw-sawf' From H622 ; collector; Asaph, the name of three Israelites, and of the family of the first:—Asaph.
H622 ’âsaph aw-saf' A primitive root; to gather for any purpose; hence to receive, take away, that is, remove (destroy, leave behind, put up, restore, etc.):—assemble, bring, consume, destroy, fetch, gather (in, together, up again), X generally, get (him), lose, put all together, receive, recover [another from leprosy], (be) rereward, X surely, take (away, into, up), X utterly, withdraw.

Seperate LATIN:
sē-cerno , crēvi, crētum, 3 (old I.inf. secernier, Lucr. 3, 263), v. a. I. Lit., to put apart, to sunder, sever, separate “Juppiterilla piae secrevit litoragenti,” hath set apart for the pious race, Hor. Epod. 16, 63:
C. To set aside, reject: “cum reus frugalissimum quemque secerneret,” Cic. Att. 1, 16, 3
2. That is removed from acquaintance (cf. abditus), hidden, concealed, secret: “secreta ducis pectora,” Mart. 5, 5, 4: “secretas advocat artes,” Ov. M. 7, 138:
“ars,” Petr. 3: “litterae (withfamiliares),” Quint. 1, 1, 29:
“carmina (the Sibylline odes),” Luc. 1, 599:

LIBERTY means that Jesus died to give ME liberty from Corrupters of the word meaning "selling learning at wholesale" or adultery.
LIBERTY gives me REST from the laded burden and burden laders: these were the songs of the Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites composed to SILENCE the Word of God.
LIBERTY gives me liberty from the LAW of preaching and paying, the LAW of listening to self-speak, the LAW of laying by in store and the LIBERTY of not supporting religious STAFF which included the Levite Noise makers which is THE Greek definition of a PARASITE.

LIBERTY peels the Albatros off our neck and asks only what Christ commanded in the wilderness; that we assemble to LISTEN to the Word READ and meditate in the heart.

I'm not sure why the Musical Performers think that THEY have the right to suck up all of the giving attention to (worship) when it is impossible for ME to do anything but GIVE ATTENTION them them as they claim to be able TO LEAD YOU INTO THE PRESENCE OF GOD.

I only see predictions here of the coming Christ that came already and ones choice to either believe God or not, it matters not to God if one uses instruments in worship or not.
What matters Brother is Motive, anmd there are those that preach in sincerity and those of contention, I glory with Paul in both for Christ is preached, why? Because I know Father is "GREAT" in Love and Mercy to all and will cause his that beleive to Stand
Romans 14:4
Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

 

[homwardbound]

Some legalistic "denominations" held their "rule" while hugging personal sins. I guess Jesus was against that but... I could be lost in tiny operational "sins"

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

What is the sin of the world? Did he take it away a the cross or not? Waht does his death do for you and all that beleive?
What was the purpose of the cross then?
Did he come to give us new life in the Spirit or not? How was is this done?
By instruments or his death for us, then his resurrected life for us to be made alive in Spirit and truth after death cleansed us?

An operation a gift from Father to us, or is it taken away if one uses instruments in service in a building made by man and not by God:

[h=3]Hebrews 8:1-4[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

8 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; [SUP]2 [/SUP]a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

 

[KSublett]

You talk about the 'role of Muses'-- characters from Greek mythology, in your interpretation of scripture. Do you believe in real Muses? Are you some kind of pagan?

No, but your musical worship teams claim to be able to LEAD YOU INTO THE PRESENCE OF GOD: Jesus died to get that role.

From the Musical Enchanter(ess) to the Babylon Mother of harlots in Revelation 17 the Bible is the ANTITHESIS of paganism. The Prophets by the Spirit OF Christ is the ANTITHESIS to the Civil-Military-Clergy complex whom God had "turned over to worship the starry host." If you don't know a pagan when you see one you might hire him for the pulpit.

Three of the Muses were the female worship team for Apollo, Abaddon or Apollyon at Delphi and also at Corinth: that is why Paul issues hard warnings against performing males or especially females. The Authority Paul outlawed is "authentia" which is both erotic and murderous as historical writers understood. The blue text is in Lewis and Short's Latin lexicon. Liddell and Scott Greek. The clip on h2167 which defines Cantillation or chopping the text into syllables but not metrical is from Thayer. If you have a better resource which connects to the actual Latin and Greek Text let me know. Most of the early historical writings and the education of all early clergy was in Latin. There was no Greek "bible" until Erasmus.

Revelation 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride [Nymphs: the Hieros Gamos] shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

vĕnēfĭcĭum magic potions, magic, sorcery: subito totam causam oblitus est: “idque veneficiis et cantionibus Titiniae factum esse dicebat,

Music induces endorphins producing the "pharmakos" effect of Fight, Flight or sexual feelings.

I am removing the links because it upsets you so much.

Revelation18:22 kai phōnē” kitharōdōn kai mousikōn kai aulētōn kaisalpistōn “ou mē akousthē” en “soi eti,” kai pastekhnitēspasēstekhnēs ou mē heurethē en soi eti, “kai phōnē mulou” ou mē akousthē en soi eti,

G3451 mousikos moo-sik-os' Mousa (a Muse); “musical”, that is, (as noun) a minstrel:—musician.

John called them sorcerers: I know that doesn't mean anything. The religion of the Jews is well documented by the Greek's own version. If God abandoned Israel to worship the starry host then the Greeks had a name for each one. It does not matter whether the god is real or not: the Jews called the golden Calf their god.

Apollodorus, Library 1.3 Now Zeus [Greek god] wedded Hera [Greek Eve] by Styx he had Persephone; and by Memory （Mnemosyne） he had the Muses, first Calliope, then Clio, Melpomene, Euterpe, Erato, Terpsichore, Urania, Thalia, and Polymnia.[2] Thamyris, who excelled in beauty and in minstrelsy, engaged in a musical contest with the Muses, the agreement being that, if HE won, he should enjoy them all, but that if he should be vanquished he should be bereft of what they would. So the Muses got the better of HIM and bereft him both of his eyes and of his minstrelsy
The Muses and the Graces were really bad women: that's why Paul to Titus defined true GRACE as personified in Jesus who hath appeared teaching us NOT to follow the pagan Graces and Muses.

mousi^kē (sc. tekhnē) [Tekne are the craftsmen-sorcerers in Revelation 18: they might make silver images or they might be theater builders and stage managers. A.any art over which the Muses presided, esp. poetry sung to music, Pi.O.1.15, Hdt.6.129; “mousikēs agōn” Th.3.104, cf. IG12.84.16, etc.; “poiēsis hē kata mousikēn” Pl.Smp.196e, cf. 205c; tis hē tekhnē, hēs to kitharizein kai to adein kai to embainein orthōs; Answ. “mousikēn moi dokeis legein” Id.Alc.1.108d.= agōn mousikēs,

Now, you can call me a liar: no problem, I will drown my abuse in another pot of coffee.

 

[secularhermit]

????????????????

WORSHIPPING, with or without instruments is an operative "failure", a tiny sin, while the church is assemble for more prpuses than worshipping solely (which is the issue in concern, according to the OP)

Jesus taught while many liked to see the sacriface of innoncent animals. Jesus preached in assemblies and around towns while many wanted to be seated listening to speakers and doing nothing... That is NOT a tiny operative functioning of The Chuch of God.

 

[KSublett]

I only see predictions here of the coming Christ that came already and ones choice to either believe God or not, it matters not to God if one uses instruments in worship or not.
What matters Brother is Motive, anmd there are those that preach in sincerity and those of contention, I glory with Paul in both for Christ is preached, why? Because I know Father is "GREAT" in Love and Mercy to all and will cause his that beleive to Stand

1Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

If you call God a liar be sure to have your motive handy.

The point is that the ritualists depend totally on the Law of the Monarchy which did not follow the Law of Moses.

Gen. 49:8 Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise:
.....thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies;
.....thy father’s children shall bow down before thee.
Gen. 49:9 Judah is a lion’s whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up:
.....he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion;
.....who shall rouse him up?

As soon as Solomon died, the tribes divided because they had built the temple with slave labor and selling cities to Hiram. The Spirit OF Christ in Isaiah 1 and Jeremiah 7 says that God did NOT command any of the sacrificial system: it was IMPOSED when God abandoned them.

Only Judah as a house or family continued: God had promised David a TENT at Mount Zion but Solomon built God a literal HOUSE but God does not dwell in houses built by human hands nor is He worshipped by anything you can make or compose.

Gen. 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah,
.....nor a lawgiver from between his feet,
.....until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. [Gentiles]
Gen. 49:11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass’s colt unto the choice vine;
.....he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:
Gen. 49:12 His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.

Paul ignores the Law of Moses as having any spiritual meaning to the Jews or to us:

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal. 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal. 3:27 (What I mean to say is) as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Enim why because, for, for instance, namely, that is to say, I mean, in fact I. To corroborate a preceding assertion, yes indeed, yes truly, of a truth, to be sure, certainly, indeed: A. To prove or show the grounds of a preceding assertion

 

[Shava]

Colossians 3:16 and Ephesians 5:19 Some believe this is a command to tell us not to use instruments in worship, others believe it's not, what do we do? How do some people believe and others don't. If we feel that it's a command then I believe you are to obey it. Those who
" SINCERLY " do not believe it's a command are they to simply allow instruments in worship because that's what they believe? I don't believe it would be a sin if they truly and sincerely believe that there obeying God, wouldn't it be similar to Paul when he sincerely thought he was doing God's will by persecuting Christians, wouldn't that be the same, so it would seem that it would be allowed if that's what there heart tells them on the subject of using instruments. There are people who just became a Christian and may be in a church that God doesn't approve of, but until they see the truth it wouldn't be held against them because you got to start somewhere and hopefully over time the person will find the truth and make changes to amend there mistake. Let me know your thoughts on this.

 

[LT]

No, but your musical worship teams claim to be able to LEAD YOU INTO THE PRESENCE OF GOD: Jesus died to get that role.

I will respond to this, because I finally found something we clearly agree on.
(although the rest of your post was full of gross misinterpretations, and eisegesis)

It is true that "worship teams" sometimes confuse their role, and assume that they are leading others into God's presense, instead of their true purpose: to glorify God in song. When a "worship leader" begins thinking that he/she is leading others into worship, they have committed sin in their hearts.
But... this is a generalization.

In many congregations, the worship teams are simply there worshiping with the rest of the congregation, offering their talents to the service of God, and as a ministry of His grace.

There is beauty in the world because God created beautiful things. If we do not worship God when we witness the awesome beauty of God's creation, then we are sinning by refusing God the praise that He deserves.

We should praise and worship our Lord when we hear the birds sing, when we feel the wind rush, when we taste a good meal, and when we hear a beautiful composition. All good is from God. If it is good, then God is glorified... and we should glorify God it it.


----------
After reading your posts, I have come to the conclusion that you believe Satan is the creator of instruments and father of all instrumental music. If this is true, then you are denying God glory for these things, and are committing the sin of Herod: denying the glory to God, but giving it to another.
Even worse than Herod, you would be giving Satan glory for all instruments, instrumentals, and accompaniments...

BE CAREFUL with your words here. The sin at hand is called 'blasphemy'.

 

[posthuman]

i agree with you there LT - the accusation against "worship leaders" isn't unfounded in a narrow sense concerning many individuals, but is an inaccurate generalization in the broad sense.

the same can be said of evangelists -- no human "saves" another, or even "leads someone to God" -- God alone receives the glory of salvation - for no one can come to Him unless he is drawn by God Himself. not every evangelist, though well meaning, understands that.

 

[presidente]

Colossians 3:16 and Ephesians 5:19 Some believe this is a command to tell us not to use instruments in worship, others believe it's not, what do we do? How do some people believe and others don't. If we feel that it's a command then I believe you are to obey it. Those who
" SINCERLY " do not believe it's a command are they to simply allow instruments in worship because that's what they believe? I don't believe it would be a sin if they truly and sincerely believe that there obeying God, wouldn't it be similar to Paul when he sincerely thought he was doing God's will by persecuting Christians, wouldn't that be the same, so it would seem that it would be allowed if that's what there heart tells them on the subject of using instruments. There are people who just became a Christian and may be in a church that God doesn't approve of, but until they see the truth it wouldn't be held against them because you got to start somewhere and hopefully over time the person will find the truth and make changes to amend there mistake. Let me know your thoughts on this.

I'd just like to point out that saying that Colossians 3:16 and Ephesians 5:19 is a COMMAND NOT to use instruments is illogical, foolish, irrational, and maybe even insane. There is no way to get that out of those verses.

Now, if your argument is that we should only do what is commanded, specifically, kind of like a Regulative Approach, then that is something to discuss. But the other stance is obviously false.

 

[KSublett]

A Christian is a Disciple of Christ. A Disciple is a Student. The commanded Resource is the WILL OF THE LORD. The command is to SPEAK that which is written for our learning. The Logos speak words are OPPOSITE and outlawing clergy singing, playing instruments or acting. Sane people don't come before a holy God without reverence and Godly fear because GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE.
The Spirit OF Christ in Isaiah 8 said that those who do NOT SPEAK (Dabar) that which is written, THERE IS NO LIGHT IN THEM.

A MINIMALIST STUDENT OF CHRIST WOULD NOT WANT TO DO A LEGALISTIC END-RUN AND ADD INSTRUMENTS WHICH ARE "MACHINES FOR DOING HARD WORK MOSTLY MAKING WAR." Since Christ outlawed instruments and as prophesied Jesus was MOCKED with instrumental music, to say that SPEAKING the Word is insane defines all of Scripture and Church scholarship insane. Clergy Music is defined from Nimrod onward as SACRED VIOLENCE demonstrated by the flesh and blood lust of the God abandoned Levites and violent language.

Isaiah 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

Isaiah 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

The Marzeah in Amos 5
"The marzeah had an extremely long history extending at least from the 14th century B.C. through the Roman period. In the 14th century B.C., it was prominently associated with the ancient Canaanite city of Ugarit (modern Ras Shamra), on the coast of Syria...
The marzeah was a pagan ritual that took the form of a social and religious association... Some scholars regard the funerary marzeah as a feast for--and with--deceased ancestors (or Rephaim, a proper name in the Bible for the inhabitants of Sheol)." (King, Biblical Archaeological Review, Aug, 1988, p. 35, 35)
"These five elements are:
........(1) reclining or relaxing,
........(2) eating a meat meal,
........(3) singing with harp or other musical accompaniment,
........(4) drinking wine and
........(5) anointing oneself with oil." (King, p. 37).

"In pagan traditions, musical instruments are invented by gods or demi-gods, such as titans. In the Bible, credit is assigned to antediluvian patriarchs, for example, the descendants of Cain in Genesis 4:21. There is no other biblical tradition about the invention of musical instruments." (Freedman, David Noel, Bible Review, Summer 1985, p. 51).

And Jubal HANDLED musical instruments WITHOUT AUTHORITY meaning in a SEXUAL SENSE. Religious music and sexuality is locked at the lips.

Worship Androgyny the Pagan Sexual Ideal.

​

"With the wine-drinking (which is the literal meaning of the Hebrew for feasting), went music and dancing." (Heaton, E. W., Everyday Life in Old Testament times, Scribners, p. 93)

THIS WAS RISING UP TO PLAY AND THE PLAY OF DAVID WHERE EVERYONE GOT A SHARE OF FOOD

"we recognize the same elements: the sacrifices and libation, the cultic feast in which the congregation gets a share of food and drink after it has been blessed by the king, and the merry-making, now in the form of instrumental and vocal music. But the central act of the ritual, which was performed by the king, is called literally 'drinking' the god (Gurney, O. R. Some Aspects of Hittite Religion, p. 33-34, Oxford University Press, 1977)

​

This won't shock the literate who know that because of the MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai God TURNED THEM OVER to worship the starry host.

"The normal order of events was a meal, followed by a drinking party. Entertainment might include anything from a rhetorcian or philosopher discoursing on some topic, to musical entertainment, to sexual dalliance."
"Plutarch implicitly contrasts a serious dinner featuring a sage as the after-dinner speaker with the other sorts of dinners--where sexual play with the girl flute-players or hetairae was common." (Witherington, Ben, Why Not Idol Meat, Bible Review, June 1994, p. 41-42).
​

 

[presidente]

No, but your musical worship teams claim to be able to LEAD YOU INTO THE PRESENCE OF GOD: Jesus died to get that role.

Who are you talking about? Who said that? Read that some 'worship leader' said such a thing once, and want to paint other churches and individuals with that brush.

It would be as unfair as may assuming that anyone who goes to a church that meets in a building with a sign out front that says "Church of Christ' believes in these conspiracy theory interpretations of the Old Testament mixed with pagan literature that you promote. Btw, do you still even go to one, or are you, and maybe your family, the only members of the true 'Church of Christ' that you know of, in your opinion?

From the Musical Enchanter(ess) to the Babylon Mother of harlots in Revelation 17 the Bible is the ANTITHESIS of paganism. The Prophets by the Spirit OF Christ is the ANTITHESIS to the Civil-Military-Clergy complex whom God had "turned over to worship the starry host." If you don't know a pagan when you see one you might hire him for the pulpit.

Israel would keep going back into idolatry. There are passages that commend certain priests at different times, throughout the Old Testament. You hang on to one verse and characterize the whole time period with it, ignoring the others. You try to spin Psalm 150 into something bad, ignoring the actual message of the words in the text-- a kind of conspiracy theory interpretation.

Three of the Muses were the female worship team for Apollo, Abaddon or Apollyon at Delphi and also at Corinth: that is why Paul issues hard warnings against performing males or especially females.

I see you are using a kind of folk etymology approach to connect Apollyon and Apollos, which is way too tenuous since you can look up and see Apollyon means destroyer and the text connects it with a Hebrew word, not Apollos. And then, to pick one of the thousands and thousands of details from what we have of the history of Apollo worship among the Greek pagans, and to pick one detail you read or made up about the Muses in pagan mythology, and try to use that interpret the Bible somehow is so tenuous as to be irrational.

And do you really think this verse about Abaddon is a verse about 'worship teams.' It's not even mentioned in the text. You are treating whatever you read in pagan literature about Muses as if that pagan text is inspired (or the pagan text your source drew from.)

You are treating pagan writings and writings about the pagan world like scripture. You shouldn't get your doctrines from demons.

The Authority Paul outlawed is "authentia" which is both erotic and murderous as historical writers understood. The blue text is in Lewis and Short's Latin lexicon. Liddell and Scott Greek. The clip on h2167 which defines Cantillation or chopping the text into syllables but not metrical is from Thayer. If you have a better resource which connects to the actual Latin and Greek Text let me know. Most of the early historical writings and the education of all early clergy was in Latin. There was no Greek "bible" until Erasmus.

The Greek Orthodox would disagree with you. I'm not sure what all this has to do with anything because I can't guess at the holes in what you are saying this time. I asked you why you were dumping a bunch of Latin definitions on the page last time, you assume I know what's going on in your mind and offer this as a comment about it. Paul's writings don't touch on whether words can be chopped up metrically or not. Hebrew poetry wasn't based on meter and rhyme in the same way English poetry is, but that doesn't mean particular styles of poetry or song are forbidden. Hebrew poetry was written in Hebrew not English. So if you want to think like that, why not say English is outlawed. (And then you shouldn't post.)

Revelation 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

Notice it does not say that the harpers and musicians would not be heard in heave.

vĕnēfĭcĭum magic potions, magic, sorcery: subito totam causam oblitus est: “idque veneficiis et cantionibus Titiniae factum esse dicebat,

Music induces endorphins producing the "pharmakos" effect of Fight, Flight or sexual feelings.

Our bodies produce all kinds of chemicals that the Lord designed them to make. We are fearfully and wonderfully made. It is a good thing. You are really grasping at straws.

Sex releases endorphins, but married people are supposed to have sex. It is good to sing praise to the Lord, too, even if some endorphins get released.

Revelation18:22 kai phōnē” kitharōdōn kai mousikōn kai aulētōn kaisalpistōn “ou mē akousthē” en “soi eti,” kai pastekhnitēspasēstekhnēs ou mē heurethē en soi eti, “kai phōnē mulou” ou mē akousthē en soi eti,

G3451 mousikos moo-sik-os' Mousa (a Muse); “musical”, that is, (as noun) a minstrel:—musician.

Again, you are playing a game of 'pick the word I want out of the glossary.' Apollos had a pagan name. That doesn't mean he was a false deity.

John called them sorcerers: I know that doesn't mean anything. The religion of the Jews is well documented by the Greek's own version. If God abandoned Israel to worship the starry host then the Greeks had a name for each one. It does not matter whether the god is real or not: the Jews called the golden Calf their god.

Apollodorus, Library 1.3 Now Zeus [Greek god] wedded Hera [Greek Eve] by Styx he had Persephone; and by Memory （Mnemosyne） he had the Muses, first Calliope, then Clio, Melpomene, Euterpe, Erato, Terpsichore, Urania, Thalia, and Polymnia.[2] Thamyris, who excelled in beauty and in minstrelsy, engaged in a musical contest with the Muses, the agreement being that, if HE won, he should enjoy them all, but that if he should be vanquished he should be bereft of what they would. So the Muses got the better of HIM and bereft him both of his eyes and of his minstrelsy
The Muses and the Graces were really bad women: that's why Paul to Titus defined true GRACE as personified in Jesus who hath appeared teaching us NOT to follow the pagan Graces and Muses.

That last line in particular is really messed up thinking. The apostles drew heavily from Hebrew thought and drew a lot of their Greek language from the Septuigint. That should be the place you look for a word study on such issues before going to paganism. Greeks words had meanings apart from their usage in paganism, too.

mousi^kē (sc. tekhnē) [Tekne are the craftsmen-sorcerers in Revelation 18: they might make silver images or they might be theater builders and stage managers. A.any art over which the Muses presided, esp. poetry sung to music, Pi.O.1.15, Hdt.6.129; “mousikēs agōn” Th.3.104, cf. IG12.84.16, etc.; “poiēsis hē kata mousikēn” Pl.Smp.196e, cf. 205c; tis hē tekhnē, hēs to kitharizein kai to adein kai to embainein orthōs; Answ. “mousikēn moi dokeis legein” Id.Alc.1.108d.= agōn mousikēs,

If someone were a pagan, he might think the muses presided over tekhne. But God is not a pagan, and He knows better. Hebrews 11:10 applies the word to God, where it speaks of a city whose Builder and maker is God.

Do you believe that false pagan goddess preside over the Almighty?

If you are assuming tekhne are pagan based on this definition, it shows that you just don't know how to treat a Greek or other type of language dictionary. That is obvious from your posts. You make points of doctrine from the choice of words of a dictionary or a work of paganism, and use these ideas as an exegetical key to interpret scripture. It feels like reading the conspiracy theories of someone who is not quite all there, when you are clear enough that other people can understand what your points are. (It is unclear what are your words and what belong to your source in the above quote, and you often don't cite sources)

Now, you can call me a liar: no problem, I will drown my abuse in another pot of coffee.

I don't recall calling you a liar. I have called some of your points irrational, and I think you are very confused. Part of the problem is your methodology, but I think there is a kind of spiritual root to this.

 

[KSublett]

Just read the link for general information: This defines the religionism plaguing both Jews and Christians. Paul and John clearly play off the pagan "gods" Apollodorus, Library 1.3 N

......