Churches of Christ with or without instruments, which is the right way to worship?

[SeaBass]

1 Chronicles 15:16 (KJV) [SUP]16 [/SUP]And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of musick, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy.
[HR][/HR]2 Chronicles 5:13 (KJV) [SUP]13 [/SUP]It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD;
[HR][/HR]2 Chronicles 7:6 (KJV) [SUP]6 [/SUP]And the priests waited on their offices: the Levites also with instruments of musick of the LORD, which David the king had made to praise the LORD, because his mercy endureth for ever, when David praised by their ministry; and the priests sounded trumpets before them, and all Israel stood.
[HR][/HR]2 Chronicles 34:12 (KJV) [SUP]12 [/SUP]And the men did the work faithfully: and the overseers of them were Jahath and Obadiah, the Levites, of the sons of Merari; and Zechariah and Meshullam, of the sons of the Kohathites, to set it forward; and other of the Levites, all that could skill of instruments of musick.

Christ permanently took the OT law out of the way making it inactive, of no effect, Col 2:14; Heb 10:9. The above verses are no more binging upon the NT Christians than the OT verses that speak of animal sacrifices, purifications, circumcision, etc, etc.
Deut 5, the OT law was only given to the Jews to keep, it was never given to Gentiles or NT Christians or anyone else to keep.
Furthermore, in Rom 7:1-7 Paul says it is sinful for a NT Christian who is married to Christ and His NT gospel to also keep the OT law.

 

[TheAristocat]

As a member of the Church of Christ I cannot believe what has happened in the last twenty years in which some Churches of Christ have decided to add instruments to their worshipping, which I feel is a sin. If you are a member of a Church of Christ who has instruments in your church, tell me where you got your authorization to do this? What has changed in the last twenty years to change how you have decided to worship with instruments when the Churches of Christ prior to the last twenty years were always instrument free .

I've never been to an official "Church of Christ," but when my dad and I go to a baptist church we always wait a while in order to skip the music service and then go. We like the message a lot more, and the music seems like a waste of time to us. I know some people get something out of it or they feel they can praise God through it or get closer to him. And you certainly can if your heart is in it.

But there are different ways of worshipping God. Emulating someone's actions is a form of worship, and so I would say that obeying God and becoming more Christ-like is the highest form of worship. What ends up happening to us when we hit the music section of a service is that my feet start hurting from standing up and singing repetitive songs for a half an hour or more and I look over at my dad and we both grin at each other and know what we're thinking: we want the music to end so we can sit down and listen to the word of God and hopefully learn something new. Sometimes I do sit down after a while of singing and just listen to others sing. So I'm not all that keen on singing in general. But the Bible says nothing against music with or without instruments. Having no instruments whatsoever just makes me think of how much more boring the singing section of a service would be for me. Not that this is the point of going to church. But I would most certainly skip it.

 

[T-REX]

The Israelites were seeking righteousness through the Law, and not Christ... that is what Paul was saying. The passage had nothing to do with doing what "they thought was best", but about ignoring the sacrifice of Christ, and putting their faith in their own good works instead of the finished work of Christ.

How you have twisted the Word of God! (or rather "how the Word of God has been twisted in your hearing")
Read your Bible for yourself.

Mrs Limpet was Banned for this post, for teaching heresy. Since when is scripture heresy. this is a chat forum and many on here post opinions that can be construed with heresy. All scripture is God Breathed so is God A heretic? I adjour those responsible for not evoking Matthew 18, on the conduct of how to treat a brother (sister) ,to review and reconsider. I for one Stand behind her statement which is the Word of God. I guess then i stand in judgment of this Forum because I to stand for Christ and the authority of its scriptures!
.

 

[SeaBass]

The Bible teaches us to praise God in every action we take. If that is music, then we also praise God with music.
To deny musicians the ability to use their God given gift to praise and glorify the gift giver, would be a sin, and causing them to bury their talents in the ground.

God is the Creator. God created music with the purpose of glorifying Himself.
Why deny God glory?

Jn 4:23,24 says the true worshipper worships "in truth"Jn 17:17 Jesus said "thy word is truth"

So true worshippers worship according to God's word, with God's word being the sole and final authority on the matter, meaning man-made opinions have no place for true worshippers. God's "truth" has command true worshippers to sing.

Just because one has a 'talent' does not mean that talent is to be used in worship, only God's word- truth determines how worship is to be done. I know someone with the talent to kick field goals. Does that mean kicking fields goals is to be part of worship? Do you want to deny this guy of using his talent in worshipping God?

 

[SeaBass]

If the introduction of playable instruments into the church is a "violation" of the law (or God´s will) what DEFINITION and punishment may apply for:

a) Introduction of false doctrines + herecies?
b) Microphones, high power speakers, video beams to show movies and plays on "the stage" of several churches I´ve visited?
c) Why so FEW people bypassed the teachings given on Ezk 34 , compared to John 10?
d) Why do we Christians assemble? To please us or to please those "leaders" some people love to seek?

It´s clears we love to be screwed up in concepts + contemptions.

Audio speakers, video presentations are matters of expediency and do not change what God has commanded.

In Mt 28:19,20 Jesus commanded his disciples to go into all the world and teach. Since in this context Jesus did not authorize a specific mode of transportation/communication, then how were the disciple to go and teach?

 

[SeaBass]

The principle should be clear. Be obedient to your conscience/convictions, because it is given by God, and as a Believer it is controlled by the Holy Spirit. But also, do not judge others for their convictions.

Also, don't cause others to stumble by burdening them with more rules, because it says in Romans 14:22
Your beliefs about these things should be kept secret between you and God. People are happy if they can do what they think is right without feeling guilty.


please read Romans 14, and see how this debate is so similar to the debate over what food a Believer can eat.

This is the heresy of Humanism where man thinks HE determines within himself what is right or wrong. Paul said that when he was Saul he did all the things he did in good conscience, Acts 23:1. Persecuting the church was "right" in his conscience.


Paul, in that context of Rom 14, is dealing with matters of opinion, not matter of law and the command to sing is a matter of law, not man's opinion.

I have been lead by the Holy Spirit's word to sing for that is all the Holy Spirit's word says for NT Christians are to do. The theme of the 1 Cor epistle is Paul judging he Corinthians sinful behavior and telling them to correct their sinful disobedience.

 

[SeaBass]

But there are different ways of worshipping God.

THis is the whole problem summed up here.

Jn 4:23,24 true worshippers worship "in truth", God's word is truth, Jn 17:17

So there are not different man-made ways to worship there is just one way, God's way. God commands NT Christians to sing.

 

[SeaBass]

Mrs Limpet was Banned for this post, for teaching heresy. Since when is scripture heresy. this is a chat forum and many on here post opinions that can be construed with heresy. All scripture is God Breathed so is God A heretic? I adjour those responsible for not evoking Matthew 18, on the conduct of how to treat a brother (sister) ,to review and reconsider. I for one Stand behind her statement which is the Word of God. I guess then i stand in judgment of this Forum because I to stand for Christ and the authority of its scriptures!
.

She was banned for quoting Rom 10:3 and applying it appropriately within its context.

 

[TheAristocat]

Here you go, brother. This is one of the passages I was thinking of:

Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship.

If we are commanded to sing, then singing would be obedience and would be true worship. I just have yet to see that specific command from God. But, hey, singing is a form of worship. If someone sings well, then they should use their talents to honor God. I have the worst possible singing voice on the planet, primarily because I rarely use my voice to even speak. And my personality is in no way similar to Mary's or David's where I just am so overjoyed I break out in song and dance. Sometimes I may be so overjoyed that I crack a smile. But this is all beside the point: does God command everyone to sing? Forgive me if I missed that verse in previous posts.

 

[Shava]

I've never been to an official "Church of Christ," but when my dad and I go to a baptist church we always wait a while in order to skip the music service and then go. We like the message a lot more, and the music seems like a waste of time to us. I know some people get something out of it or they feel they can praise God through it or get closer to him. And you certainly can if your heart is in it.

But there are different ways of worshipping God. Emulating someone's actions is a form of worship, and so I would say that obeying God and becoming more Christ-like is the highest form of worship. What ends up happening to us when we hit the music section of a service is that my feet start hurting from standing up and singing repetitive songs for a half an hour or more and I look over at my dad and we both grin at each other and know what we're thinking: we want the music to end so we can sit down and listen to the word of God and hopefully learn something new. Sometimes I do sit down after a while of singing and just listen to others sing. So I'm not all that keen on singing in general. But the Bible says nothing against music with or without instruments. Having no instruments whatsoever just makes me think of how much more boring the singing section of a service would be for me. Not that this is the point of going to church. But I would most certainly skip it.

The bible tells us exactly what God commands on what he wants us to do in worship and that's to sing only according to the commands he gave us, which are Colossians 3:16 and Ephesians 5:19. My personal feelings, and again I emphasize my personal feelings are he commands singing because this allows only his creation, us, to sing and praise him without any manmade object which would cause what he wants to be more worldly than spiritual.

 

[Timeline]

That IS good, yikes!But it still seems rather then worship how God authorized it is still just as scary and such a huge burden to put everything under the sun into it because it feels good.

I don't think worshiping God should be about doing whatever feels right either. I just can't find biblical justification to say there is anything wrong with using instruments as long as it doesn't interfere with service (everything in an orderly fashion) and I believe we should be able to hear one another sing. I attend a church that does not use instruments and I will not push for them where I attend because I don't feel they are required and it was cause division. But I don't see why we need to get into other people's worship service in this respect because it really doesn't matter, except how would God and the church be edified at that location. The bible says that we are supposed to be of One Mind. As we know Paul got into it with Mark, but they both wanted to please God (I believe) and recognized Jesus as our risen Savior.

 

[Timeline]

The point overlooked is that if the boss asked for a Big Mac and you brought him a Big Mac and coffee, then you did NOT do as the boss said. You further erred by ASSUMING the boss would accept the coffee. God commanded to sing and man has no right/authority to ASSUME what God wants when God already said what He wants. And God does not change His mind about His command for Christians to sing.

Following your "logic", anyone can ASSUME anything they want to into the bible.

Luke 17:11-21 [SUP]11 [/SUP]While He was on the way to Jerusalem, He was passing between Samaria and Galilee. [SUP]12 [/SUP]As He entered a village, ten leprous men who stood at a distance met Him; [SUP]13 [/SUP]and they raised their voices, saying, “Jesus, Master, have mercy on us!” [SUP]14 [/SUP]When He saw them, He said to them, “Go and show yourselves to the priests.” And as they were going, they were cleansed. [SUP]15[/SUP]Now one of them, when he saw that he had been healed, turned back, glorifying God with a loud voice, [SUP]16 [/SUP]and he fell on his face at His feet, giving thanks to Him. And he was a Samaritan. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then Jesus answered and said, “Were there not ten cleansed? But the nine—where are they? [SUP]18 [/SUP]Was no one found who returned to give glory to God, except this foreigner?” [SUP]19 [/SUP]And He said to him, “Stand up and go; your faith has made you well.”
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; [SUP]21 [/SUP]nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

Did the Samaritan follow Jesus' command or did he do something extra? Was he punished? Or rewarded?

 

[posthuman]

Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord
(Ephesians 5:19)

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
(Colossians 3:16)

if this is a literal & restrictive command with respect to "sing only" or "speak only"
why do we stop there and sing or speak anything but psalms, hymns and spiritual songs? for it clearly does not say "speaking to yourself with reason & arguments" but with song.

and so i will teach & admonish you with a psalm, with melody in my heart, giving thanks to God:

It is good to praise the Lord
and make music to your name, O Most High,
proclaiming your love in the morning
and your faithfulness at night,
to the music of the ten-stringed lyre
and the melody of the harp.

For you make me glad by your deeds, Lord;
I sing for joy at what your hands have done.
How great are your works, Lord,
how profound your thoughts!
(Psalm 92:1-5)

if you disagree with the psalmist, please answer us also with a psalm, as the scripture commands.

 

[secularhermit]

Audio speakers, video presentations are matters of expediency and do not change what God has commanded.

In Mt 28:19,20 Jesus commanded his disciples to go into all the world and teach. Since in this context Jesus did not authorize a specific mode of transportation/communication, then how were the disciple to go and teach?

You MAY call it expediency... But facts are that MANY people DON'T go to real assemblies (churches) because "they attend" church VIRTUAL meetings online. They pick AUDIO sermons and leave those empty seats that, a church, will NOT LONGER BE CALLED A HOME.

So, the advice given by Shaul Paul still the same, because "expediency" kill HUMAN CONTACT, firm love bonds, and much more we cannot see (onlined).

 

[posthuman]

this is what it looks like when two believers literally speak to each other with spiritual songs, with melody in their hearts, giving thanks to God:

[video=youtube_share;tjjNu1nj0lc]http://youtu.be/tjjNu1nj0lc[/video]

♥

Oh, magnify the LORD with me, and let us exalt his name together!
(Psalm 34:3)

 

[SeaBass]

Here you go, brother. This is one of the passages I was thinking of:

Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship.

If we are commanded to sing, then singing would be obedience and would be true worship. I just have yet to see that specific command from God. But, hey, singing is a form of worship. If someone sings well, then they should use their talents to honor God. I have the worst possible singing voice on the planet, primarily because I rarely use my voice to even speak. And my personality is in no way similar to Mary's or David's where I just am so overjoyed I break out in song and dance. Sometimes I may be so overjoyed that I crack a smile. But this is all beside the point: does God command everyone to sing? Forgive me if I missed that verse in previous posts.

Eph 5:18ff:

18) And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit

19) Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

20) Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

21) Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God

In verse 18 Paul gave the command "Be filled with the spirit". How then does one obey this imperative? By doing those plural participles: speaking, singing, making, giving and submitting. THese plural participles become imperatives themsleves for theyare necessary to fulfill to command to be filled with spirit.


(If one argues that 'making melody" means playing an instrument, then each and every one is commanded to play an instrument as shown by the PLURAL participle. No one person or group can play an instrument on your behalf and be filled with the spirit on your behalf. You must obey this command to play yourself if you are to "be filled with the spirit" yourself)

 

[Jabberjaw]

this is what it looks like when two believers literally speak to each other with spiritual songs, with melody in their hearts, giving thanks to God:

[video=youtube_share;tjjNu1nj0lc]http://youtu.be/tjjNu1nj0lc[/video]

♥

Oh, magnify the LORD with me, and let us exalt his name together!
(Psalm 34:3)

Actually what this post resembles is a mockery of Gods word?
There is nothing wrong with musical instruments, as long as they are not used for worship service

 

[SeaBass]

Luke 17:11-21 [SUP]11 [/SUP]While He was on the way to Jerusalem, He was passing between Samaria and Galilee. [SUP]12 [/SUP]As He entered a village, ten leprous men who stood at a distance met Him; [SUP]13 [/SUP]and they raised their voices, saying, “Jesus, Master, have mercy on us!” [SUP]14 [/SUP]When He saw them, He said to them, “Go and show yourselves to the priests.” And as they were going, they were cleansed. [SUP]15[/SUP]Now one of them, when he saw that he had been healed, turned back, glorifying God with a loud voice, [SUP]16 [/SUP]and he fell on his face at His feet, giving thanks to Him. And he was a Samaritan. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then Jesus answered and said, “Were there not ten cleansed? But the nine—where are they? [SUP]18 [/SUP]Was no one found who returned to give glory to God, except this foreigner?” [SUP]19 [/SUP]And He said to him, “Stand up and go; your faith has made you well.”
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; [SUP]21 [/SUP]nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

Did the Samaritan follow Jesus' command or did he do something extra? Was he punished? Or rewarded?

Lk 17:9,10 "Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do."

Jesus's paraple was to show that salvation cannot be merited. Even when one does what is commanded him he is still an unproftiable servant. Yet one who does not do his duty is derelict in his duty.

The parable of lepards is not about adding to or taking away from Christ's commandments (which no one has the right to) but it is to teach a truth:

It is significant that the one that returned was a Samaritan. It is a parable foretelling of the Gentiles (Samaritans) being grafted in to the kingdom/the church while those "unthankful" Jews would be cast off, see Romans 11.

 

[SeaBass]

if this is a literal & restrictive command with respect to "sing only" or "speak only"
why do we stop there and sing or speak anything but psalms, hymns and spiritual songs? for it clearly does not say "speaking to yourself with reason & arguments" but with song.

Ironically you should say this because for many, when they see the word "faith" they are itching to add the word "only" behind it. When people add to or take from God's word...they no longer have God's word.

 

[SeaBass]

You MAY call it expediency... But facts are that MANY people DON'T go to real assemblies (churches) because "they attend" church VIRTUAL meetings online. They pick AUDIO sermons and leave those empty seats that, a church, will NOT LONGER BE CALLED A HOME.

So, the advice given by Shaul Paul still the same, because "expediency" kill HUMAN CONTACT, firm love bonds, and much more we cannot see (onlined).

Please answer this:

In Mt 28:19,20 Jesus commanded his disciples to go into all the world and teach. Since in this context Jesus did not authorize a specific mode of transportation/communication, then how were the disciple to go and teach?

Then we can talk about expediency.