Churches of Christ with or without instruments, which is the right way to worship?

[Link]

When God command gopher wood to build the ark, could Noah use gopher wood and oak yet still do what God said? No. Noah would have CHANGED what God said by ADDING to what God said just like ADDING to an order is CHANGING the order.

That's not a good analogy. A better analogy would be Moses putting a little pitch somewhere that wasn't clearly on the outside of the boat.

Better yet would be if God had told him that He liked something, but didn't command it specifically, and Moses did it.

Substituting oak for gopher wood isn't following instructions. If Noah hung put up a plant or two for decorations inside, that's not disobedience. If he had a reason to think plants in the ark pleased God based on what God said, and put plants in the ark though it wasn't specifically commanded in this case that would be a better analogy.

Rom 14 was being twisted essentially into saying that what anyone's conscience says for them to do is alright. So what ever you conscience ASSUMES would be right. Yet in that context Paul is dealing with matters of opinions NOT matter of law/doctrine.

And those who use musical instruments to praise God have Psalms to read that tell us that it is good to praise God with musical instruments.

You are creating a law where one is not stated. You have a law that if the New Testament does not specifically authorize something for church meetings (with 'something' being some specific set of things you object to, but not the other things) then it is forbidden. The Bible teaches no such thing. It does teach 'let all things be done unto edifying.'

I have not drawn on Nadab and Abihu. Yet even though the OT was permanently taken away by Christ, Col 2:14; Heb 10:9 we can still learn from their examples "Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." 1 Cor 10:11. People who disobey God today will be punished as those who disobeyed back then.

You are applying rules from the tabernacle to the church without Biblical authorization.

Not doing as God say is sin/disobedience/unrighteousness. Sure I can choose to disobey God but it will come with a price I do not want to have to pay in being eternally lost.

Let's discuss that if the issue is disobeying God (e.g. disobeying the commandments in I Corinthians 14.) You have now presented any scripture that shows that using musical instruments in church is disobedience to God.

Col 3:17 "And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him."

"In the name of the Lord Jesus" means by His authority.

Prove your interpretation from scripture.

WHere do men get their authority to think they can worship God anyway they so choose?

Psalms says it is good to praise the Lord to the sound of the lyre and the harp.

Jesus said "...it is lawful to do good, even on the Sabbath day." Wouldn't that apply even to the first day of the week?

The "electricity" and "internet" is a failed argument already used mulitple times in this thread.

'Failed' because you dismiss it out of hand. The point is, you have no justification for using the Nadab and Abihu argument for church and not other areas of your life, or for certain practices in church you oppose, but not for others.

In Mt 28:19,20 Jesus commanded his disciples to go into all the world and teach. Since in this context Jesus did not authorize a specific mode of transportation/communication, then how were the disciple to go and teach?

Please answer this question, then we can talk about matter of authority and expediency.

I'm not the one assuming something is forbidden unless it is specifically authorized. When it comes to the tabernacle, Moses was shown a certain pattern, and that pattern had to be followed. The priests had a certain fire they were to use and they were to keep it burning. Nadab and Abihu deviated from the pattern.

Those who use musical instruments have inspired scripture to back them up. The Bible says singing praises to God to the lyre and harp is good, and Jesus says it is lawful to do good.

The miraculous has ceased. No one today can speak in tongues as the apostles did in Acts 2.

This is your idea, but the Bible does not teach this. I Corinthians 1:7 says, "So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

I have personally witnessed their inablity to do the things they claim.

I can't comment on your experience, because I wasn't there, except to say that you err by basing your doctrine on experience instead of scripture. If someone doesn't meet up to your expectations of what spiritual gifts should look like, that doesn't mean that there are not people exercising Biblical spiritual gifts. If you want to talk about experiences, I've seen obvious supernatural spiritual gifts before.

YOu post "...modify it into a church service based on whether elements of it could be backed up with scripture"

You are implying worship activity does NOT have to backed up with scripture?

No, I am not. I am saying taking RCC liturgy as the basis for a church service, and designing a church services by asking which components of it are Biblical, and which are not, is not the way to have church. Instead, we need to completely return to the New Testament, and ask what it actually teaches. I Corinthians 14 is the longest chapter we have on what to do in church. Like Hebrews 10:24-25, the idea is to 'exhort one another.' Protestantism and your movement also, have a tradition of the clergy type up front speaking and performing rituals, rather than the body functioning in their gifts to edify one another in the meeting.

Jn 4:23,24 the true worshipper worships "in truth" God's word is truth, Jn 17:17, so true worship is according to scripture. God did not leave how worship is to be conducted up to the opinions of men.

But while that is important, we are not talking about truly prostrating to the Father, but rather what we do in our church meetings. There is no command to prostrate ('worship') in our church gatherings in the New Testament.

 

[LT]

so... the only 3 people who are supporting this idea of worship with instruments being sin, all joined in mid March of this year? 2 of them on the same day... looking through the chat, this looks like the work of one person. I excuse myself from any further discussion on this topic.

 

[Link]

so... the only 3 people who are supporting this idea of worship with instruments being sin, all joined in mid March of this year? 2 of them on the same day... looking through the chat, this looks like the work of one person. I excuse myself from any further discussion on this topic.

I don't think KSubblet is the other people, based on writing style and content. I think he does run google searches looking for dicussions. There could be multiple people doing that, or else someone could go to a friend on another forum and ask for posting help.

 

[posthuman]

I don't think KSubblet is the other people, based on writing style and content. I think he does run google searches looking for dicussions. There could be multiple people doing that, or else someone could go to a friend on another forum and ask for posting help.

i have certainly never met anyone else that butchers the Word of God like that guy
and reading his posts, he doesn't agree with the others - KSublett believes even singing is wicked.

but the Word encourages us to be joyful in the Lord!
we need not worry about our rejoicing being taken away by vain speech or empty condemnation; who can steal anything away from God?

For behold, your enemies, O LORD, for behold, your enemies shall perish;
all evildoers shall be scattered.
(Psalm 92:9)

 

[posthuman]

so... the only 3 people who are supporting this idea of worship with instruments being sin, all joined in mid March of this year? 2 of them on the same day... looking through the chat, this looks like the work of one person. I excuse myself from any further discussion on this topic.

understandable reaction and a suspicion not unfounded!

i too am sick of "discussion" that doesn't edify or magnify the Lord. but i will follow what is encouraged in Ephesians 5:19, and continue to quote the Psalms, as the apostle urged.
when i get to a Psalm that says music is evil, i'll change my judgement. so far, hasn't happened. i encourage those of you who disagree to follow the command as well, and if you find a Psalm or Hymn that condemns my supplication, please don't withhold it!

I will give thanks to you, O Lord, among the peoples;
I will sing praises to you among the nations.
(Psalm 57:9)

 

[SeaBass]

yes!

the prayers of the saints are incense
and my body is a living sacrifice!

May my prayer be set before you like incense;
may the lifting up of my hands be like the evening sacrifice.
(Psalm 141:2)

David is speaking of actual, real burnt offerings and sacrificing real animals.

 

[Timeline]

Lk 17:9,10 "Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do."

Jesus's paraple was to show that salvation cannot be merited. Even when one does what is commanded him he is still an unproftiable servant. Yet one who does not do his duty is derelict in his duty.

The parable of lepards is not about adding to or taking away from Christ's commandments (which no one has the right to) but it is to teach a truth:

It is significant that the one that returned was a Samaritan. It is a parable foretelling of the Gentiles (Samaritans) being grafted in to the kingdom/the church while those "unthankful" Jews would be cast off, see Romans 11.

You can be stubborn if you want, that is up to you. Jesus plainly tells them to go to the priests, but because of love and gratitude the one man did not need to go - Jesus released him from the command to go to the priests. Those that say instruments cannot be used are just making that up - No command at all! The word only is added to scripture so that division occurs over nothing. This is not why Jesus died on the cross - so that we can tear down those who use instruments. We should try to avoid choking on a gnat (less than a gnat) and swallowing a camel (yes, this is a problem in my own life - but instruments have nothing to do with it).

 

[Jabberjaw]

so... the only 3 people who are supporting this idea of worship with instruments being sin, all joined in mid March of this year? 2 of them on the same day... looking through the chat, this looks like the work of one person. I excuse myself from any further discussion on this topic.

What does it matter how many here or when they may have joined that disagree with you? if you can support IM in NT worship present your proof.

funny how you make a post on one person, then they are banned.

 

[Timeline]

Please answer this:

In Mt 28:19,20 Jesus commanded his disciples to go into all the world and teach. Since in this context Jesus did not authorize a specific mode of transportation/communication, then how were the disciple to go and teach?

Then we can talk about expediency.

Acts 8:26 -27 But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip saying, “Get up and go south to the road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza.” (This is a desert road.) [SUP]27 [/SUP]So he got up and went;
Acts 8:40 But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he passed through he kept preaching the gospel to all the cities until he came to Caesarea.

 

[SeaBass]

That's not a good analogy. A better analogy would be Moses putting a little pitch somewhere that wasn't clearly on the outside of the boat.

Better yet would be if God had told him that He liked something, but didn't command it specifically, and Moses did it.

Substituting oak for gopher wood isn't following instructions. If Noah hung put up a plant or two for decorations inside, that's not disobedience. If he had a reason to think plants in the ark pleased God based on what God said, and put plants in the ark though it wasn't specifically commanded in this case that would be a better analogy.

It's a spot on analogy for Noah changing what God said is no different than men today who change what God said. Noah using gopher wood AND oak changes what God says just as singing AND playing changes what God said.

And those who use musical instruments to praise God have Psalms to read that tell us that it is good to praise God with musical instruments.

You are creating a law where one is not stated. You have a law that if the New Testament does not specifically authorize something for church meetings (with 'something' being some specific set of things you object to, but not the other things) then it is forbidden. The Bible teaches no such thing. It does teach 'let all things be done unto edifying.'

Again, Col 2:14; Heb 10:9 Christ permanently took all the OT, including Psalms out of the way replacing it with His NT.

You posted that I have a law that if the New Testament does not specifically authorize something for church meetings then it is forbidden. I have not said this. What I have said is if God commands "x" then that eliminates everything else that is not "x" WITHOUT God having to specifically forbid them. The example I used was God commanding gopher wood. When God said "gopher wood" that eliminates all other types of wood WITHOUT God having to specifically forbid each wood by name. It's a very simple form of logic people use multiple times everyday. Likewise when God said "sing" that eliminates any type of music other than singing WITHOUT God having to specifically forbid each type by name.

You are applying rules from the tabernacle to the church without Biblical authorization.

No I did not. I simply said Nadab and Abihu are examples for us. They disobeyed God's word and were punished. So why would men today think they can disobey God's word and not be punished?

Let's discuss that if the issue is disobeying God (e.g. disobeying the commandments in I Corinthians 14.) You have now presented any scripture that shows that using musical instruments in church is disobedience to God.

1 Cor 14 does not command me to speak in tongues nor does it say that I can speak in tongues. Back in the first century church when they really did have tongue speaking, those at Corinthian were abusing/misusing those gifts and in 1 Cor 14 Paul is straighten that matter out. It is not remotely commanding anyone today to speak in tongues. That ceased as Paul says in 1 Cor 13 and Eph 4.

Prove your interpretation from scripture.

The verse plainly says whatever you do in word or deed do all in the name of the Lord What is there not to understand?





{quote=Link]Psalms says it is good to praise the Lord to the sound of the lyre and the harp.

Psalms was taken out of the way by Christ. Gal 2:21 if one can go back to the OT law and be justified by that law, then Christ IS dead in vain. The entire Galatian epistle is about Paul condemning the Galatians for leaving Christ's NT gospel and returning back to the OT law thinking keeping that law would justify them. Rom 7:1-7 Paul shows its sinful for a Christian to keep two laws at the same time (CHrist's T law and Moses' Law) just as it is sinful for a woman to keep two husbands at the same time.

Jesus said "...it is lawful to do good, even on the Sabbath day." Wouldn't that apply even to the first day of the week?

The OT law was still in effect at this time. It was not replaced by Christ's new testament until after His death, Heb 9:16,17.

'Failed' because you dismiss it out of hand. The point is, you have no justification for using the Nadab and Abihu argument for church and not other areas of your life, or for certain practices in church you oppose, but not for others.



I'm not the one assuming something is forbidden unless it is specifically authorized. When it comes to the tabernacle, Moses was shown a certain pattern, and that pattern had to be followed. The priests had a certain fire they were to use and they were to keep it burning. Nadab and Abihu deviated from the pattern.

I did not dismiss it out of hand. To explain my position I asked you where did the disciples get authority as to the mode of transportation/communication. It was YOU that FAILED to answer this question. The question showed that Jesus did not authorize a specific mode of communication/transportation, each disciple used the mode most expedient to him. Today, we have the internet, cars, planes as modes of transportation/communications and each can use the most expedient mode. In Acts 20:7 God brought the disciples together on the first day of the week. So for disciples today, they also must come together but they have to have a place to come together. A particular type of place was not commanded so disciples meet where it is most expedient for them, whether that place has electricity or not is a matter of expediency.

Those who use musical instruments have inspired scripture to back them up. The Bible says singing praises to God to the lyre and harp is good, and Jesus says it is lawful to do good.

No they do not. They cannot show where NT Christians are to worship by playing IM. They quickly lose their argument when they run back to the OT. Why do they run back to the OT law to try and find justification for IM? Because they cannot find justification for IM in the NT.

This is your idea, but the Bible does not teach this. I Corinthians 1:7 says, "So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Paul was speaking to those that had miraculous signs. Speaking to the Corinthians specific problems.

I can't comment on your experience, because I wasn't there, except to say that you err by basing your doctrine on experience instead of scripture. If someone doesn't meet up to your expectations of what spiritual gifts should look like, that doesn't mean that there are not people exercising Biblical spiritual gifts. If you want to talk about experiences, I've seen obvious supernatural spiritual gifts before.

I was speaking of my experience and there is 100% fail rate among those that claim that have been given miraculous gifts

No, I am not. I am saying taking RCC liturgy as the basis for a church service, and designing a church services by asking which components of it are Biblical, and which are not, is not the way to have church. Instead, we need to completely return to the New Testament, and ask what it actually teaches. I Corinthians 14 is the longest chapter we have on what to do in church. Like Hebrews 10:24-25, the idea is to 'exhort one another.' Protestantism and your movement also, have a tradition of the clergy type up front speaking and performing rituals, rather than the body functioning in their gifts to edify one another in the meeting.

I've been wanting people to go back to the NT ad leave the false teachings of men. When they go by the NT and NT only as the only authority on worship, they will all be singing just as I. They will understand by rightly dividing the NT that signs were for a specific time and purpose that has long past.

But while that is important, we are not talking about truly prostrating to the Father, but rather what we do in our church meetings. There is no command to prostrate ('worship') in our church gatherings in the New Testament.

I don't know what you are talking about prostrating my point with Jn 4 is that true worshippers go y God's truth, God's word as sole authority as to how worship is to be conducted

 

[SeaBass]

so... the only 3 people who are supporting this idea of worship with instruments being sin, all joined in mid March of this year? 2 of them on the same day... looking through the chat, this looks like the work of one person. I excuse myself from any further discussion on this topic.

What difference does it make who joined this forum and when they joined?

 

[SeaBass]

You can be stubborn if you want, that is up to you. Jesus plainly tells them to go to the priests, but because of love and gratitude the one man did not need to go - Jesus released him from the command to go to the priests. Those that say instruments cannot be used are just making that up - No command at all! The word only is added to scripture so that division occurs over nothing. This is not why Jesus died on the cross - so that we can tear down those who use instruments. We should try to avoid choking on a gnat (less than a gnat) and swallowing a camel (yes, this is a problem in my own life - but instruments have nothing to do with it).

You're twisting a parable into something it was not meant for. What verse gives any man the power/authority to change, ignore what Christ has commanded?

 

[T-REX]

If you are confused, then you didn't read Romans 14. If you want to continue in confusion, then continue to neglect the reading of the Word.

so not only do you twist the bible to suit your needs you twist a question into a fact so you can verbally abuse someone instead of teach as prescribed by Jesus? another interesting comment. I don't live in confusion,but in my opinion read confusion and contradiction in your writing and gave you an opportunity to clarify it. But rather then have an intellectual conversation you seem to rely on false accusation as well. I have indeed read Romans 14, so you have brought false witness against me

Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you I Cor. 1:2. since this is a christian chat sight and many come here to talk scripture and learn from posts i find it hard to believe you are a good fit here when chat involves communication and not what i constitute verbal assault. In scripture we are to Love and to treat each other with a certain ethical code. i fail to see that here. Maybe you should consider reading more then Romans 14 ,if you haven't already, to understand how. II Timothy 3:16 says " All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. As For musical instruments they were placed into the temple worship by David,not authorized by God, and placed the tribe of Levi as the "custodians of the music of the divine service As Found in I Chronicles. When Jesus died on the cross the temple wall was torn in two and now WE are the temple with the Holy of Holies residing in us. I Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? I Corinthians 3:16 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? 17If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple. You are not your own, 20for you were bought with a price. I Peter 2:4As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, 5you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.So glorify God in your body. Just as Nadab and Abihu were killed when they offered unauthorized fire to the Lord Leviticus 10:1, and an un-cleaned Priest was consumed if he entered the temple in an unwashed state, Leviticus, What will happen to you if you try and put musical instruments inside your body, and if your not baptized for the cleansing of sins, how can the Holy spirit then reside in you if you are unclean? As for your feel good so do it philosophy, its NOT from God, its the desire of the Flesh also called hedonism. Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
. I John 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world. 17And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever. Sinse the new covenant was through Jesus and we are the temple what instrument is now authorized? None the music is within not from without. Colosians Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. We are spiritual not physicalI Corinthians 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. So instraments in the old temple....yes instraments in heaven...yes instraments in this covenent......no. We are to follow the example set By Jesus Christ. I John 2:6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. When did our advocate Play an instrument? 1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. 2And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. 3But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. 4Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. 5For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 2For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8:If you want the things of this world musical instruments you can have them,you get no quarrel from me, if you want be condescending you will get no quarrel from me, if you want to call me judgmental i will show you that you are not quarreling with me II Peter 1:19And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. 21For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

 

[Shava]

so... the only 3 people who are supporting this idea of worship with instruments being sin, all joined in mid March of this year? 2 of them on the same day... looking through the chat, this looks like the work of one person. I excuse myself from any further discussion on this topic.

If God gives you a command to sing only and you don't do it, that would be an act of disobedience, which means you have sinned, it doesn't get any easier than that. If a person doesn't know what is true then I think the grace of God would not hold this against him until he knows the truth. People start out learning about God and may be in a church that God doesn't approve of but until that person learns the truth it's not held against him until he learns the truth, this would be the grace of God forgiving him for something he doesn't know for sure, as I said we all start out not knowing everything and again that's where the grace of God comes into effect to protect us because we don't know the truth as we should when we first start out.

 

[Shava]

When God command gopher wood to build the ark, could Noah use gopher wood and oak yet still do what God said? No. Noah would have CHANGED what God said by ADDING to what God said just like ADDING to an order is CHANGING the order.

That's not a good analogy. A better analogy would be Moses putting a little pitch somewhere that wasn't clearly on the outside of the boat.

Better yet would be if God had told him that He liked something, but didn't command it specifically, and Moses did it.

Substituting oak for gopher wood isn't following instructions. If Noah hung put up a plant or two for decorations inside, that's not disobedience. If he had a reason to think plants in the ark pleased God based on what God said, and put plants in the ark though it wasn't specifically commanded in this case that would be a better analogy.



And those who use musical instruments to praise God have Psalms to read that tell us that it is good to praise God with musical instruments.

You are creating a law where one is not stated. You have a law that if the New Testament does not specifically authorize something for church meetings (with 'something' being some specific set of things you object to, but not the other things) then it is forbidden. The Bible teaches no such thing. It does teach 'let all things be done unto edifying.'



You are applying rules from the tabernacle to the church without Biblical authorization.



Let's discuss that if the issue is disobeying God (e.g. disobeying the commandments in I Corinthians 14.) You have now presented any scripture that shows that using musical instruments in church is disobedience to God.




Prove your interpretation from scripture.



Psalms says it is good to praise the Lord to the sound of the lyre and the harp.

Jesus said "...it is lawful to do good, even on the Sabbath day." Wouldn't that apply even to the first day of the week?



'Failed' because you dismiss it out of hand. The point is, you have no justification for using the Nadab and Abihu argument for church and not other areas of your life, or for certain practices in church you oppose, but not for others.



I'm not the one assuming something is forbidden unless it is specifically authorized. When it comes to the tabernacle, Moses was shown a certain pattern, and that pattern had to be followed. The priests had a certain fire they were to use and they were to keep it burning. Nadab and Abihu deviated from the pattern.

Those who use musical instruments have inspired scripture to back them up. The Bible says singing praises to God to the lyre and harp is good, and Jesus says it is lawful to do good.



This is your idea, but the Bible does not teach this. I Corinthians 1:7 says, "So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."



I can't comment on your experience, because I wasn't there, except to say that you err by basing your doctrine on experience instead of scripture. If someone doesn't meet up to your expectations of what spiritual gifts should look like, that doesn't mean that there are not people exercising Biblical spiritual gifts. If you want to talk about experiences, I've seen obvious supernatural spiritual gifts before.



No, I am not. I am saying taking RCC liturgy as the basis for a church service, and designing a church services by asking which components of it are Biblical, and which are not, is not the way to have church. Instead, we need to completely return to the New Testament, and ask what it actually teaches. I Corinthians 14 is the longest chapter we have on what to do in church. Like Hebrews 10:24-25, the idea is to 'exhort one another.' Protestantism and your movement also, have a tradition of the clergy type up front speaking and performing rituals, rather than the body functioning in their gifts to edify one another in the meeting.



But while that is important, we are not talking about truly prostrating to the Father, but rather what we do in our church meetings. There is no command to prostrate ('worship') in our church gatherings in the New Testament.

Tell me what supernatural gifts have you seen before.

 

[posthuman]

David is speaking of actual, real burnt offerings and sacrificing real animals.

“Hear, O my people, and I will speak;
O Israel, I will testify against you.
I am God, your God.
Not for your sacrifices do I rebuke you;
your burnt offerings are continually before me."
(Psalm 50:7-8)

But to the wicked God says:
“What right have you to recite my statutes
or take my covenant on your lips?
For you hate discipline,
and you cast my words behind you."
(Psalm 50:16-17)

“Mark this, then, you who forget God,
lest I tear you apart, and there be none to deliver!
The one who offers thanksgiving as his sacrifice glorifies me;
to one who orders his way rightly
I will show the salvation of God!”
(Psalm 50:22-23)

 

[Timeline]

You're twisting a parable into something it was not meant for. What verse gives any man the power/authority to change, ignore what Christ has commanded?

I am not twisting anything. Those that say that the bible says that we are not allowed to use instruments are adding to scripture. The bible give no such command. The Samaritan was thankful and for that Jesus, himself removed the obligation to go and see the priests (as the law clearly dictates). A command not to use instruments is poor speculation at best. The old testament and new testament mentions instruments and no where does is say that they are wrong. However, if you think they are wrong then they are wrong for you - not everyone else.

 

[Alligator]

so... the only 3 people who are supporting this idea of worship with instruments being sin, all joined in mid March of this year? 2 of them on the same day... looking through the chat, this looks like the work of one person. I excuse myself from any further discussion on this topic.

i believe you are out of line with this. What difference does it make?

 

[posthuman]

Psalms was taken out of the way by Christ.

why then did the apostles and all the believers quote Psalm 2 when they prayed?

On their release, Peter and John went back to their own people and reported all that the chief priests and the elders had said to them. When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God.
“Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.
You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:“

‘Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
The kings of the earth rise up
and the rulers band together
against the Lord
and against his anointed one.

(Acts 4:23-26)

and why do those wonderful verses in Ephesians & Colossians say to communicate with each other in "psalms" ?
are you more concerned with how your voice sounds than the words that come out of your mouth?

don't let Psalms "get in your way" --
but get in the way of the psalmist yourself!

The one who offers thanksgiving as his sacrifice glorifies me;
to one who orders his way rightly
I will show the salvation of God!
(Psalm 50:23)

i am thankful to think that the Most High could stoop to hear what feeble praise this unruly creation could offer!

 

[Alligator]

understandable reaction and a suspicion not unfounded!

i too am sick of "discussion" that doesn't edify or magnify the Lord. but i will follow what is encouraged in Ephesians 5:19, and continue to quote the Psalms, as the apostle urged.
when i get to a Psalm that says music is evil, i'll change my judgement. so far, hasn't happened. i encourage those of you who disagree to follow the command as well, and if you find a Psalm or Hymn that condemns my supplication, please don't withhold it!

I will give thanks to you, O Lord, among the peoples;
I will sing praises to you among the nations.
(Psalm 57:9)

suspicions of exactly what?