Salvation Not Possible Without Works

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homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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believing in the finished work justifies one. However that text is not speaking about believers. It is addressing the work of Christ which was for every human being. All men were reconciled to God through Christ. This is the gift of Rom 5:14 and Rom 5:18.

Yes, absolutely, we need to follow, to obey, to love, to endure the trials and pitfalls of life and not wilt but remain steadfast in our faith so that we can inherit eternal life with Christ.

which is not relevant to the discussion. It is about faith and the works done through our faith.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Both of your citations is speaking about the faith of a believer justifying him.
You fail to adequately consider what the Lord is saying in the texts.

Still you go about to establish your own righteousness and count as worthless the righteousness God has provided in Christ.

Is the blood of Christ wholly, completely sufficient to save from sin?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
G

Grandroux

Guest
What kind of work is to be done in order to express our faith as living?
In order to express our faith as living, we must follow Jesus' commands. John 8:28-32: "So Jesus said, 'When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me. And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.' As He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him. So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, 'If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.'"
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
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You fail to adequately consider what the Lord is saying in the texts.

Still you go about to establish your own righteousness and count as worthless the righteousness God has provided in Christ.

Is the blood of Christ wholly, completely sufficient to save from sin?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Quite the contrary. It is because of the righteousness of Christ, the reconciliation of Christ of the world, that I am able to be in union with Him. It is the doing of righteousness (works through faith) that makes one righteous, I John 3:7.

Christ sacrifice for sin is sufficient for the sins of the world, times 1 million times. Why are you asking the question?
 
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Here, this should help people:

James 2:14-17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.



[h=3]James 2:18[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

[h=3]James 2:26[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[h=3]2 Timothy 3:17[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.




And since we know in Ephesians 2:8 that we are saved throug faith by grace, and works = faith, then works are required. Its that simple.
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
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Here, this should help people:

James 2:14-17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.



James 2:18

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James 2:26

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

2 Timothy 3:17

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.




And since we know in Ephesians 2:8 that we are saved throug faith by grace, and works = faith, then works are required. Its that simple.
Precisely, very easy to understand.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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AMEN! I agree wholeheartedly.

By the way Dan, do you know the best kind of mailman to be?

A retired Christian mailman. :)
You got that right brother! 8 more years to go before I can retire. :)
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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Quite the contrary. It is because of the righteousness of Christ, the reconciliation of Christ of the world, that I am able to be in union with Him. It is the doing of righteousness (works through faith) that makes one righteous, I John 3:7.

Christ sacrifice for sin is sufficient for the sins of the world, times 1 million times. Why are you asking the question?
Your theology renders Christ's blood insufficient in that you must contribute to it to complete the redemption of your soul prior to its ultimate glorification with Christ.

What God has decreed is either sufficient or it is not. If you must add to it then you are teaching that it is not sufficient. Ditto those who teach that it can be forsaken or revoked.

If you believe what you said then stop adding conditions to that which has already satisfied the Fathers demands in every aspect.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Mar 4, 2014
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Your theology renders Christ's blood insufficient in that you must contribute to it to complete the redemption of your soul prior to its ultimate glorification with Christ.

What God has decreed is either sufficient or it is not. If you must add to it then you are teaching that it is not sufficient. Ditto those who teach that it can be forsaken or revoked.

If you believe what you said then stop adding conditions to that which has already satisfied the Fathers demands in every aspect.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
First I want to tell you something, then I'll let you argue against the Bible.

Christ died for a few reasons:
1) Non-Jews can enter Heaven
2) People can repent for their sins

Thats basically it. Also, nobody is saying, that a specific amount of works is required. Say 100 pounds, but we are saying they are required.

Now read these quotes, they are from the Bible. You can argue all you want, but the Bible is the Bible:


James 2:14-17
King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.



James 2:18

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James 2:26

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

2 Timothy 3:17

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.



Works = faith, by faith we enter heaven due to grace [Jesus' sacrifice]. Therefore, works = faith does not negate Jesus' sacrifice. Thats just an argument people use but its incorrect. If anything, it correlates with his sacrifice. Just read the Bible. I can bring up more verses too if you want :/
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
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Your theology renders Christ's blood insufficient in that you must contribute to it to complete the redemption of your soul prior to its ultimate glorification with Christ.

What God has decreed is either sufficient or it is not. If you must add to it then you are teaching that it is not sufficient. Ditto those who teach that it can be forsaken or revoked.

If you believe what you said then stop adding conditions to that which has already satisfied the Fathers demands in every aspect.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Then you misunderstand what Christ accomplished for us. Christ reconciled the world. He atoned for the sin of the world
Man cannot effect or affect anything that Christ accomplished for the world, and all of mankind.
Christ overcame death and sin for us, which we could not do. I cannot add or subtract from that work. What you are doing is not saving you from death and sin, it is not freeing you from the bondage to death and sin.

What I am required to do has to do with why I was created, NOT what Christ did on the Cross. What He did on the Cross makes it possible again for man and God to be reunited now and for eternity. The works we do through faith, has NOTHING to do with what Christ accomplished for us.

Your personal salvation is dependent on what you do, not on what Christ did for mankind. You are conflating to very distinct and different aspects or our salvation.
 
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Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
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First I want to tell you something, then I'll let you argue against the Bible.

Christ died for a few reasons:
1) Non-Jews can enter Heaven
2) People can repent for their sins

Thats basically it. Also, nobody is saying, that a specific amount of works is required. Say 100 pounds, but we are saying they are required.

Now read these quotes, they are from the Bible. You can argue all you want, but the Bible is the Bible:


James 2:14-17
King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.



James 2:18

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James 2:26

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

2 Timothy 3:17

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.



Works = faith, by faith we enter heaven due to grace [Jesus' sacrifice]. Therefore, works = faith does not negate Jesus' sacrifice. Thats just an argument people use but its incorrect. If anything, it correlates with his sacrifice. Just read the Bible. I can bring up more verses too if you want :/
I don't really disagree with you, but I would like to clarify it somewhat.
Regarding the work of Christ. He accomplished two things for mankind, the world.
He performed a sacrifice for sin with His death. This is a secondary work.
His primary work was accomplished by His Incarnation and resurrection. He arose with our human natures thus giving them life, an eternal existance. He overcame the condemnation of death through Adam. All men will be raised in the last day because He arose from the dead with our nature. This is why we say that Christ freed us/mankind from the bondage to death and sin. Death was our biggest problem, and sin secondarily because the sting of death was sin.

Now, when someone claims that another theology lessens Christ's work, It always bewilders me because how could I help with the death of Christ. How can I add to His sacrifice. Even more amazing just how could what I do, add or help His resurrection. Both are already completed events of 2000 years ago. He hardly needs anything I do 2000 years later to accomplish His work on the Cross and His resurrection.
 
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VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Again, this is all based on YOUR experience which does not make doctrine.

Why the emphasis on "personal"? Our relationship with Christ is personal. It is our personal salvation, no one else's.

Not one of these indicates that one is either saved by faith only, nor do they indicate a "permanent" salvation upon belief.
WHY PERSONAL?

Because I absolutely believe if you do not have an inner personal love relationship with Jesus Christ as LORD, which means Master; then you are not SAVED, and only KNOW ABOUT HIM, which even the demons can claim; and therefore, YOU DO NOT REALLY "KNOW HIM" PERSONALLY.

Matthew 7:23 (HCSB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’

Matthew 25:12 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] “But he replied, ‘I assure you: I do not know you!’


Luke 13:25 (HCSB)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] once the homeowner gets up and shuts the door. Then you will stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up for us!’ He will answer you,I don’t know you or where you’re from.’

1 John 2:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

ALL OF THOSE VERSES are talking about that inner personal love Relationship with JESUS CHRIST as your personal LORD.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,984
4,604
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First I want to tell you something, then I'll let you argue against the Bible.

Christ died for a few reasons:
1) Non-Jews can enter Heaven
2) People can repent for their sins

Thats basically it. Also, nobody is saying, that a specific amount of works is required. Say 100 pounds, but we are saying they are required.

Now read these quotes, they are from the Bible. You can argue all you want, but the Bible is the Bible:


James 2:14-17
King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.



James 2:18

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James 2:26

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

2 Timothy 3:17

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.



Works = faith, by faith we enter heaven due to grace [Jesus' sacrifice]. Therefore, works = faith does not negate Jesus' sacrifice. Thats just an argument people use but its incorrect. If anything, it correlates with his sacrifice. Just read the Bible. I can bring up more verses too if you want :/
NO David, genuine FAITH produces good works, psuedo Faith does not produce good works, is all they are saying.

Oh and David, since you love snow, the next time it snows, can I count on you to come over and take home with you any that happens to fall on my sidewalks?
 
Mar 4, 2014
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WHY PERSONAL?

Because I absolutely believe if you do not have an inner personal love relationship with Jesus Christ as LORD, which means Master; then you are not SAVED, and only KNOW ABOUT HIM, which even the demons can claim; and therefore, YOU DO NOT REALLY "KNOW HIM" PERSONALLY.

Matthew 7:23 (HCSB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’

Matthew 25:12 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]“But he replied, ‘I assure you: I do not know you!’


Luke 13:25 (HCSB)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]once the homeowner gets up and shuts the door. Then you will stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up for us!’ He will answer you,I don’t know you or where you’re from.’

1 John 2:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

ALL OF THOSE VERSES are talking about that inner personal love Relationship with JESUS CHRIST as your personal LORD.

I dont like how you twisted scripture here. Let me outline something about what you said, that actually proves my point. I am not going to take small parts of scripture, but cite the entire story:

First, the entire quote:

Matthew 7:21-23

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


In this quote it is evident that they prophesied and cast out devils, what does this mean? Lets read Mark 16:16-18

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
[SUP]18 [/SUP]They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


Basically, these people were real Christians. They can cast out devils. They were not disobeying the commandments. So then, why were they kicked out? How did Jesus not know them so to speak? Well, knowing that Jesus is God, and that God knows everyone, logic states he is not talking about knowing who they are. That is silly. However, when you read this Bible verse, it becomes evident:

Matthew 25:31-46

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
[SUP]33 [/SUP]And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[SUP]35 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
[SUP]39 [/SUP]Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[SUP]42 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
[SUP]43 [/SUP]I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


There he is saying that he was with or you could say, within those stranges, and they did not help him. It is that simple. He did not know him, means, when he was a stranger they did not help him.

Need more proof? Okay, let me show you what works really are.

1 John 3:8
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


That says right there that sin is a work of the devil. A work. Lastly, let me quote this:

Titus 1:16
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.



So what do all these quotes show? In addition to the quotes I showed before that say that works = faith? That works decide where you go. There are good works and bad works, bad works are sins. Also, works can send you to Heaven or Hell as shown in the Matthew quotes, and they also show your faith as shown previously in James and Titus, and once again I showed another quote from Titus.

Also to add, it is NOT saying faith produces good works. It has never said that. It says that you can claim to have faith, but your works justify it. It does not say anywhere what you claim.

Its very simple. There isn't an argument here. I just showed you a ton of scripture, and scripture before. Is there any way that you can refute all of this scripture?

- David

P.S

That snow comment, I don't know if its an insult or not :/
 
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Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
1,960
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WHY PERSONAL?

Because I absolutely believe if you do not have an inner personal love relationship with Jesus Christ as LORD, which means Master; then you are not SAVED, and only KNOW ABOUT HIM, which even the demons can claim; and therefore, YOU DO NOT REALLY "KNOW HIM" PERSONALLY.

Matthew 7:23 (HCSB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’

Matthew 25:12 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]“But he replied, ‘I assure you: I do not know you!’


Luke 13:25 (HCSB)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]once the homeowner gets up and shuts the door. Then you will stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up for us!’ He will answer you,I don’t know you or where you’re from.’

1 John 2:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

ALL OF THOSE VERSES are talking about that inner personal love Relationship with JESUS CHRIST as your personal LORD.
I was asking because you seem to be putting a special emphasis on it as if I had stated it was not personal. I would assume that everyone believes it is a personal relationship we have with Christ.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,984
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You got that right brother! 8 more years to go before I can retire. :)

Let me warn you tho, I retired in 2005 in Susanville, CA. and at that time the pension was Sufficient. At that time, we moved to Grass Valley, CA. and were living comfortably on our pensions, but within about four years we noticed that the so called cost-of-living raise was not keeping up with the ACTUAL increase in the cost of living. About a Year ago, my pension had fallen behind so much it was leaving us with $400 to take out of savings, just to pay bills. We finally had to move out of CA a couple months ago, to Fallon, NV, because it is a lot cheaper to live here. So don't count on the pension always being enough.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,135
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1) You first post "faith is substantiated and confirmed by good works"

What if a Christians' faith is NOT confirmed by good works? Will he be saved anyway?
What did James say in James 2:14-24? Faith without works is dead, so someone who claims to have faith but has no works demonstrates that they are not a Christian. Faith and works are like a two-coupon ticket to heaven. The coupon of works is not good for passage and the coupon of faith is not valid if void of works. Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit demonstrates no root. Christians are fruitful, but not all Christians are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23).

2) The problem not being understood by some here is that the "works" of Eph 2:9; "our works" of 2 Tim 1:9 and works "we have done" of Titus 3: refer to works of merit. I think eveyone her can agree that worksof merit do not sved anyone.
Any works which follow saving faith in Christ would be works of merit if they were the means of our salvation.

The problem arises when people DO NOT distinguish between DIFFERENT types of works the bible speaks about and the attmepts to lump all works together as if all works ar the same when they are not. EPh 2:9; 2 Tiom 1:9; Titus 3:5 do NOT eliminate obedient works and obedient works are not in anyway the same kind of owrks as work of merit. Paul makes a clear disicntion between works of meirt that do not sve and obeidnet works that do save in Rom 10:3.
Where did Paul make a clear distinction between works of merit and obedient works? In Romans 10:3 - For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. So believes is the alternative to establishing our own righteousness by works. Where did Paul say that we are saved by obedient works? Paul said that we are saved by grace through faith, not works. Paul did not say saved through faith and works.

Heb 11:7 "Was Noah trying to meirt his salvation when he worked by moving with fear, preparing an ark to the sving of his house? No
Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith, not the origin of it.

Heb 11:8 was Abraham trying to merit his salvation by being odedient to God in leaving his house land and kindred? No.
Leaving his house land and kindred did not earn Abraham salvation but it lead him to the place where God brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:5-6). Likewise, we read in Romans 4:2-3 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.

So attempting to lump obedient works into Eph 2:9; 2 Tim 1:9 and Titus 3:5 creates a multitude of contradictions. Paul plainly taught the necessity of obeident works in being saved in Rom 6. So he would not CONTRADICT himself by saying in other verses that obedient works are not necessary to salvation.
Paul said nothing about being saved by obedient works in Romans 6 or anywhere else in the Bible. Are works of righteousness obedient works or disobedient works? Acts 10:35 - But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. Titus 3:5 - not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. Same works. Fearing God and working righteousness is the fruit of an already existing faith. We are not saved by works of righteousness (Titus 3:5), but works in connection with salvation are the result of, not the means of, receiving salvation.

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work of obedience/work of righteousness" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." Please tell me, which good works/works of obedience could a Christian accomplish that are completely detached from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that Christians do which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself?
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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I dont like how you twisted scripture here. Let me outline something about what you said, that actually proves my point. I am not going to take small parts of scripture, but cite the entire story:

First, the entire quote:

Matthew 7:21-23

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


In this quote it is evident that they prophesied and cast out devils, what does this mean? Lets read Mark 16:16-18

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
[SUP]18 [/SUP]They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


Basically, these people were real Christians. They can cast out devils. They were not disobeying the commandments. So then, why were they kicked out? How did Jesus not know them so to speak? Well, knowing that Jesus is God, and that God knows everyone, logic states he is not talking about knowing who they are. That is silly. However, when you read this Bible verse, it becomes evident:

Matthew 25:31-46

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
[SUP]33 [/SUP]And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[SUP]35 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
[SUP]39 [/SUP]Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[SUP]42 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
[SUP]43 [/SUP]I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


There he is saying that he was with or you could say, within those stranges, and they did not help him. It is that simple. He did not know him, means, when he was a stranger they did not help him.

Need more proof? Okay, let me show you what works really are.

1 John 3:8
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


That says right there that sin is a work of the devil. A work. Lastly, let me quote this:

Titus 1:16
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.



So what do all these quotes show? In addition to the quotes I showed before that say that works = faith? That works decide where you go. There are good works and bad works, bad works are sins. Also, works can send you to Heaven or Hell as shown in the Matthew quotes, and they also show your faith as shown previously in James and Titus, and once again I showed another quote from Titus.

Also to add, it is NOT saying faith produces good works. It has never said that. It says that you can claim to have faith, but your works justify it. It does not say anywhere what you claim.

Its very simple. There isn't an argument here. I just showed you a ton of scripture, and scripture before. Is there any way that you can refute all of this scripture?

- David

P.S

That snow comment, I don't know if its an insult or not :/
NO, just joking with you about the snow. I figure I have shoveled my share and then some, as I was born and raised in Nebraska. I have learned to greatly dislike shoveling snow.

No, those that left or those "kicked out" as you put it, NEVER WERE SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE. They redefined what GOD means by Saving Faith or a "real Christian" as you put it. HE SAID NEVER KNEW YOU, that inner personal love relationship with JESUS as LORD (submitting to HIS Lordship), IS WHAT ALL TRUE CHRISTIANS HAVE. Anything less is a form of psuedo Christianity.

1 John 2:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Also to add, it is NOT saying faith produces good works. It has never said that. It says that you can claim to have faith, but your works justify it. It does not say anywhere what you claim.
Matthew 7:17-23 (NKJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Ephesians 2:5 (ASV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved),

Ephesians 2:8-9 (ESV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

James 2:18 (ESV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

2 Thessalonians 1:11 (GW)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] With this in mind, we always pray that our God will make you worthy of his call. We also pray that through {his} power he will help you accomplish every good desire and help you do everything your faith produces.

James 1:3-4 (GW)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] You know that such testing of your faith produces endurance.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Endure until your testing is over. Then you will be mature and complete, and you won't need anything.

Titus 3:8 (ASV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Faithful is the saying, and concerning these things I desire that thou affirm confidently, to the end that they who have believed God may be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men:

Hebrews 10:24-25 (HCSB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] And let us be concerned about one another in order to promote love and good works,
[SUP]25 [/SUP] not staying away from our ⌊worship⌋ meetings, as some habitually do, but encouraging each other, and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
 
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