-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
LOL! I am indeed. Fire away! Feel free to make a conversion attempt. I enjoy the back and forth banter, though, I think I should log off very soon. I don't work tomorrow, but I am getting tired. It's after midnight and I was up this morning at about 5:30 AM.
By the way, I also like the snow.
By the way, I also like the snow.
Congrats and I have a final tomorrow and I have to work today so Im planning on sleeping soon anyways.
Well, before I start, I need to gather some info on your perspective. So what I would like to know is the following:
1) How do you think the universe began? And what was the reason for its creation?
2) Why don't you commit suicide? [not meant for an insult]
3) How did humans come into existence?
4) Why did humans decide to communicate with each other?
5) Do you believe in evolution?
6) How many patterns does it take and/or coincidences does it take, for something to be a fact?
7) Are you honestly willing to be proven wrong, or do you believe you are 100% correct?
So, those are the questions I'd appreciate you answer before we begin. Just makes my job easier
Note- worst case scenario we'll delay the conversation if it gets too late
We'll have to talk some more on this, but briefly atheists generally hold that this account is a myth. Many Christians assert that it is allegory. I think you are claiming it is an historical retelling of actual events.
I would not discount all of scripture as myth. I do treat the Bible as a book, like any other written by men. I interpret everything between its covers in a secular manner. Some atheists think Jesus is a religious fiction, some think he was an historical figure. I hold to the latter view, but I cannot see him as the son of God as I do not believe in the existence of any deity. Jesus, I suspect, possibly thought of himself as a prophet sent by God, perhaps he even thought of himself as fulfilling prophecy, but that is about as far as I can go.
I would not discount all of scripture as myth. I do treat the Bible as a book, like any other written by men. I interpret everything between its covers in a secular manner. Some atheists think Jesus is a religious fiction, some think he was an historical figure. I hold to the latter view, but I cannot see him as the son of God as I do not believe in the existence of any deity. Jesus, I suspect, possibly thought of himself as a prophet sent by God, perhaps he even thought of himself as fulfilling prophecy, but that is about as far as I can go.
A
Atheism (e.g. The philosophical position that denies the reality of the God of theism and other spiritual beings. Atheists usually affirm as well that the only form of existence is the material universe and that the universe is merely the product of chance or fate) never had a strong following in antiquity but there are ancient records of its existence.
For example, Epicureans were falsely criticized in antiquity with respect to atheism. The atheism of Epicurus was a false charge. He clearly affirmed the existence of the gods, their immortality and their blessedness (Diogenes Laertius Vit. 10.123.–24).
He did not, however, affirm providence in the sense of divine care and provision for human beings and, in particular, any judicial or punitive role for the gods. Prayer was therefore meaningless to Epicureans, although the contemplation of the gods might serve the purpose of inspiring human beings to some happiness.
In some of these respects, the Epicureans were remarkably like the Jewish sect of the Sadducees. Of the latter Josephus wrote, "The Sadducees … do away with Fate altogether, and remove God beyond, not merely the commission, but the very sight, of evil.… As for the persistence of the soul after death, penalties in the underworld, and rewards, they will have none of them" (Josephus J.W. 2.8.14 §§164–65).
Plutarch, who, in his Isis and Osiris (377D–378A; 379B-D), had an extended discussion of idols, atheism and superstition.
Flavius Clemens was charged with atheism (Suetonius Domitian 15.1; Dio Cassius Hist. 67.14.1–3).
There were also instances in ancient Israel in which secularism, materialism and disdain of the covenant-ideals squeezed the fear of God out of Israel’s wisdom rendering brief periods of practical atheism (e.g. the effective denial of God in human life) that preceded periods of judgment and defeat.
Oh, and at some point I'm going to get back to Cycel's comment but just haven't gotten it together enough to finish the research phase of my reply. Peace.
For example, Epicureans were falsely criticized in antiquity with respect to atheism. The atheism of Epicurus was a false charge. He clearly affirmed the existence of the gods, their immortality and their blessedness (Diogenes Laertius Vit. 10.123.–24).
He did not, however, affirm providence in the sense of divine care and provision for human beings and, in particular, any judicial or punitive role for the gods. Prayer was therefore meaningless to Epicureans, although the contemplation of the gods might serve the purpose of inspiring human beings to some happiness.
In some of these respects, the Epicureans were remarkably like the Jewish sect of the Sadducees. Of the latter Josephus wrote, "The Sadducees … do away with Fate altogether, and remove God beyond, not merely the commission, but the very sight, of evil.… As for the persistence of the soul after death, penalties in the underworld, and rewards, they will have none of them" (Josephus J.W. 2.8.14 §§164–65).
Plutarch, who, in his Isis and Osiris (377D–378A; 379B-D), had an extended discussion of idols, atheism and superstition.
Flavius Clemens was charged with atheism (Suetonius Domitian 15.1; Dio Cassius Hist. 67.14.1–3).
There were also instances in ancient Israel in which secularism, materialism and disdain of the covenant-ideals squeezed the fear of God out of Israel’s wisdom rendering brief periods of practical atheism (e.g. the effective denial of God in human life) that preceded periods of judgment and defeat.
Oh, and at some point I'm going to get back to Cycel's comment but just haven't gotten it together enough to finish the research phase of my reply. Peace.
Yes they do. C.S. Lewis was an atheist and now he is a believer. Anthony Flew was an atheist and now he is a believer. Peter Hitchens was an atheist and now he is a believer. Derek Prince was an atheist and now he is a believer. Dawkins brother was an atheist and now he is a believer. Malcolm Muggeridge was an atheist and now he is a believer. Joy Davidman was an atheist and is now a believer. Tamsin Grieg was an atheist and is now a believer. Nicky Gumbel was an atheist and is now a believer. C.E.M Joad was an atheist and is now a believer. Alister McGrath was an atheist but is now a believer. Enoch Powell was an atheist and is now a believer. Dame Cicely Saunders was an atheist but is now a believer. Fay Weldon was an atheist but is now a believer. Eugene D. Genovese was an atheist but is now a believer. Anna Haycraft was an atheist but became a believer. Bernard Nathenson was an atheist who became a believer. E.F.Schumacher was an atheist and is now a believer. Alexsandr Solzhenitsyn was an atheist who became a christian. Paul Jones was an atheist but is now a Christian. Gerald Priestland was an atheist but converted to christianity. Larry Darby was an atheist but declared himself to be christian now.
Living things look like they were designed, so how do evolutionists know that they were not designed? Richard Dawkins wrote, “biology is the study of complicated things that have the appearance of having been designed with a purpose.” Francis Crick, the co-discoverer of the double helix structure of DNA, wrote, “Biologists must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed, but rather evolved.” The problem for evolutionists is that living things show too much design. Who objects when an archaeologist says that pottery points to human design? Yet if someone attributes the design in living things to a designer, that is not acceptable. Why should science be restricted to naturalistic causes rather than logical causes?
Your 2nd point caused me to laugh out a little too loudly. I hope I didn't wake up the family.
I look forward to giving you a reply – tomorrow.
You have a final tomorrow? It's Sunday. Oh, wait, I guess technically tomorrow is Monday. It’s after midnight now.
I look forward to giving you a reply – tomorrow.
You have a final tomorrow? It's Sunday. Oh, wait, I guess technically tomorrow is Monday. It’s after midnight now.
Yea its 1am basically. We can do this... Monday night lol? Im going to be busy for a while. If you want, just pm me your response.
A
They don't have Jesus. They have Michael the archangel entering Mary's womb and being born as "Jesus." This is why Jehovah Witness teach that "Jesus" (e.g. Michael) is not almighty God but just a lesser god.
Their false doctrine asserts an Almighty God Jehovah and beside Him a lesser Jesus whom, as stated, is the archangel Michael. They altered John 1:1 from the original Greek in their bible to read "the word was a god" to accommodate their polytheistic doctrine. (see pages 150, 416 - 417, Reasoning From The Scriptures, 1985 edition published by the Watchtower Society).
Here read this: Jehovah's Witnesses and the "Real Jesus" and this: Jehovah's Witnesses Beliefs | Watchtower Bible and Tract Society Beliefs | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
They don't have Jesus so...
What they have is a lot of misinformation, fabrications, and what they do have has been mashed up so badly by assigning false meaning to the text that it's barely recognizable from what it originally was.
The bible states:
"Let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.' Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:10-12, NKJ)
Obviously, this disqualifies you from entering the spiritual dimensions of heaven Cycel upon the death of your mortal body at which point you'll finally understand the enormity of your choice in this life but you can make an effort to familiarize with the truth so that you're not spreading misinformation in the meanwhile as the Jehovah Witness do.
The Jehovah Witness do not accept Jesus as the son of God. They falsely assert Michael the Archangel in the place of the actual person of Jesus Christ who most assuredly is not Michael the Archangel and their salvation soteriology is not the soteriology of the bible.
Their false doctrine asserts an Almighty God Jehovah and beside Him a lesser Jesus whom, as stated, is the archangel Michael. They altered John 1:1 from the original Greek in their bible to read "the word was a god" to accommodate their polytheistic doctrine. (see pages 150, 416 - 417, Reasoning From The Scriptures, 1985 edition published by the Watchtower Society).
Here read this: Jehovah's Witnesses and the "Real Jesus" and this: Jehovah's Witnesses Beliefs | Watchtower Bible and Tract Society Beliefs | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
They don't have Jesus so...
What they have is a lot of misinformation, fabrications, and what they do have has been mashed up so badly by assigning false meaning to the text that it's barely recognizable from what it originally was.
The bible states:
"Let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.' Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:10-12, NKJ)
Obviously, this disqualifies you from entering the spiritual dimensions of heaven Cycel upon the death of your mortal body at which point you'll finally understand the enormity of your choice in this life but you can make an effort to familiarize with the truth so that you're not spreading misinformation in the meanwhile as the Jehovah Witness do.
The Jehovah Witness do not accept Jesus as the son of God. They falsely assert Michael the Archangel in the place of the actual person of Jesus Christ who most assuredly is not Michael the Archangel and their salvation soteriology is not the soteriology of the bible.
As atheists do not believe in the existence of God we are not going to ever come to this conclusion.
Such large numbers of atheists visit Christian forums to debate I often find myself explaining that contrary to appearances most atheists never visit Christian forums. So your question seems somewhat different from the more typical Christian query. While it is true that most atheists are not much interested in engaging Christians in discussion there are always a few of us, for our own reasons, who enjoy the talk. Still, if you start counting you will discover a fair number of unbelievers engaged in chat here. A poll would be interesting, don't you think?
Such large numbers of atheists visit Christian forums to debate I often find myself explaining that contrary to appearances most atheists never visit Christian forums. So your question seems somewhat different from the more typical Christian query. While it is true that most atheists are not much interested in engaging Christians in discussion there are always a few of us, for our own reasons, who enjoy the talk. Still, if you start counting you will discover a fair number of unbelievers engaged in chat here. A poll would be interesting, don't you think?
You would have to examine what it was that returned Lewis to the Christian fold. He is an interesting case for he described his atheist self as being “very angry with God for not existing,” at least during the time of his youth (see Wikipedia: C.S. Lewis). This is a peculiar position for an atheist and I would suggest that a person who is angry with God must actually believe the deity exists. I think it possible that part of Lewis never did give up belief in a god of some kind. In the end he returned to the Anglican Church and the beliefs of his youth.
The other point to be made is that Lewis’ experience is not representative of all atheists. So even if Lewis did believe God had made himself visible to him this by no means can be said true for all atheists.
Flew, the atheist, was calling himself a deist toward the end of his life, but he reaffirmed that he was not a Christian theist. I don’t think this helps your position Mustaphadrink.
Yes, I read his book, The Rage Against God, and your point is? Hitchens never claimed to have had an encounter with God.
I had to look this fellow up as I had not heard of him. When he was 26 Prince had what he apparently described as a supernatural encounter with Jesus (the Wikipedia article is not well documented), but the article does not say that he had been an atheist prior to this experience. Paul is said to have had an encounter also, but he believed already in God.
I never knew Dawkins had a brother. The Wikipedia article mentions a sister, but no brother. Where are you getting this information?
Yes, you list Muggeridge and fifteen more people, most whom I’ve never heard of who you say were atheists who returned to belief in God. What’s your point? Naming former atheists does not prove God got into touch with them. You have to look at each person’s individual experience to see why they returned to the faith. You must make each case on an individual basis. Not everyone has the same experiences.
Was he? I’ve read several of Solzhenitsyn’s novels, so I couldn’t let this pass. In a 2003 interview he was asked, “In retrospect, what were the most important and defining moments in your life?” See: An Interview with Alexander Solzhenitsyn. Interestingly he never mention Christianity. I believe, he may have been Russian Orthodox; but where did you get the notion he’d been an atheist?
The other point to be made is that Lewis’ experience is not representative of all atheists. So even if Lewis did believe God had made himself visible to him this by no means can be said true for all atheists.
Flew, the atheist, was calling himself a deist toward the end of his life, but he reaffirmed that he was not a Christian theist. I don’t think this helps your position Mustaphadrink.
Yes, I read his book, The Rage Against God, and your point is? Hitchens never claimed to have had an encounter with God.
I had to look this fellow up as I had not heard of him. When he was 26 Prince had what he apparently described as a supernatural encounter with Jesus (the Wikipedia article is not well documented), but the article does not say that he had been an atheist prior to this experience. Paul is said to have had an encounter also, but he believed already in God.
I never knew Dawkins had a brother. The Wikipedia article mentions a sister, but no brother. Where are you getting this information?
Yes, you list Muggeridge and fifteen more people, most whom I’ve never heard of who you say were atheists who returned to belief in God. What’s your point? Naming former atheists does not prove God got into touch with them. You have to look at each person’s individual experience to see why they returned to the faith. You must make each case on an individual basis. Not everyone has the same experiences.
Was he? I’ve read several of Solzhenitsyn’s novels, so I couldn’t let this pass. In a 2003 interview he was asked, “In retrospect, what were the most important and defining moments in your life?” See: An Interview with Alexander Solzhenitsyn. Interestingly he never mention Christianity. I believe, he may have been Russian Orthodox; but where did you get the notion he’d been an atheist?
Dedication: For those of all faith positions (FYI, this has been on my personal playlists for a few years...)
Song: By Faith
Performers: Keith and Kristyn Getty of Northern Ireland (UK)
Relevant text: (...we walk by faith not by sight) (2 Corinthians 5:7)
[video=youtube_share;jNIx__JGLGs]http://youtu.be/jNIx__JGLGs[/video]
Song: By Faith
Performers: Keith and Kristyn Getty of Northern Ireland (UK)
Relevant text: (...we walk by faith not by sight) (2 Corinthians 5:7)
[video=youtube_share;jNIx__JGLGs]http://youtu.be/jNIx__JGLGs[/video]
A
If you continue to read what atheists of C.S. Lewis's period wrote, you'll find that it was quite common for atheists of the social gospel period to feel that way. His wife certainly did. A large number of them eventually did convert to Christianity in one form or another finding their life purpose confirmed as ultimately meaningful within the Christian worldview. Cicely Saunders is a perfect example. They weren't as rabid and close minded as the "new atheists" are.
I meet a fair number of "new atheists" presently who abandoned atheism when they "bottomed out" as it's called due to drugs and alcohol or just their life became unmanageable due to choices they made or choices others made that severely impacted their lives. With God's help, they were able to recover and reverse the course of their lives.
But many former atheists find God simply through interacting with Christians. Here's an example: Fox News' Highly Reluctant Jesus Follower | Christianity Today
Atheism (about 6% of the US population currently) is growing in the U.S. (though in steep decline in Russia and other parts of the world) primarily because young people are increasingly indoctrinated with atheism in U.S. public schools and universities, the liberal media, and households which negligently either do not teach them about God or are dysfunctional not living what they teach.
BUT, atheism has a lower retention rate compared to other worldviews. A 2012 a Georgetown University study was published indicating that only about 30 percent of those who grow up in an atheist household remain atheists as adults.
Research by the Pew Research Forum on Religion and Public Life, in the United States, showed that a majority of those surveyed who were raised in atheist or agnostic households, or where there was no specific religious attachment, later chose to join a religious faith.
Faith in Flux | Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project
Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian
So, while atheism grows due to atheist indoctrination: most atheists convert away from atheism at some point in their lives.
I meet a fair number of "new atheists" presently who abandoned atheism when they "bottomed out" as it's called due to drugs and alcohol or just their life became unmanageable due to choices they made or choices others made that severely impacted their lives. With God's help, they were able to recover and reverse the course of their lives.
But many former atheists find God simply through interacting with Christians. Here's an example: Fox News' Highly Reluctant Jesus Follower | Christianity Today
Atheism (about 6% of the US population currently) is growing in the U.S. (though in steep decline in Russia and other parts of the world) primarily because young people are increasingly indoctrinated with atheism in U.S. public schools and universities, the liberal media, and households which negligently either do not teach them about God or are dysfunctional not living what they teach.
BUT, atheism has a lower retention rate compared to other worldviews. A 2012 a Georgetown University study was published indicating that only about 30 percent of those who grow up in an atheist household remain atheists as adults.
Research by the Pew Research Forum on Religion and Public Life, in the United States, showed that a majority of those surveyed who were raised in atheist or agnostic households, or where there was no specific religious attachment, later chose to join a religious faith.
Faith in Flux | Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project
Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian
So, while atheism grows due to atheist indoctrination: most atheists convert away from atheism at some point in their lives.
No, they teach he is not God because that, in their view, is what most of the evidence of the New Testament points toward, and I would agree with them. You are getting your information on the Jehovah's Witnesses from Christian apologetic sources, that oppose the Witnesses. Why don't you read what the Witnesses themselves are saying?
They do not say that Jesus is actually the archangel Michael, they say references to Michael are actually references to Jesus. Michael is like a code word for Jesus. They, like many Christian members here interpret Jesus as the Primal Adam, but as a creation of God he cannot be God; however, they attempt to live their lives as purely as Jesus lived his, while on Earth, and they see him as the only route to salvation. They also believe that it is Jesus who must intercede for us before God.
I believe your Bible has also alters some things from the original Greek to better fit Christian belief. The Witnesses are no more polytheistic than you are. You believe in angels, demons, and a leader of the demons called Satan. You must also be polytheistic.
Yes, they do have Jesus.
They do not say that Jesus is actually the archangel Michael, they say references to Michael are actually references to Jesus. Michael is like a code word for Jesus. They, like many Christian members here interpret Jesus as the Primal Adam, but as a creation of God he cannot be God; however, they attempt to live their lives as purely as Jesus lived his, while on Earth, and they see him as the only route to salvation. They also believe that it is Jesus who must intercede for us before God.
I believe your Bible has also alters some things from the original Greek to better fit Christian belief. The Witnesses are no more polytheistic than you are. You believe in angels, demons, and a leader of the demons called Satan. You must also be polytheistic.
Yes, they do have Jesus.
I have little knowledge of that generation of atheists. Certainly some, like Lewis returned to the faith of their upbringing, but others did not. An obvious example would be Bertrand Russell. The Great War played a huge role in the disillusionment of that generation.
I couldn’t find anything on-line about Cicely Saunders religious views. In what way do you see the "new atheists" as close minded.
I must travel in a different crowd. None of the atheists I know are drug users nor alcoholics.
What’s interesting too are stories of how devout Christians became atheists; for example: William Lobdell’s Losing My Religion and Dan Barker’s Godless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists.
I don’t believe public schools teach atheism. Certainly that is not my experience. However, you are probably identifying the teaching of evolution with atheism. I came to atheism completely independently of any obvious external influence.
How large was the sample? Personally, I find this very difficult to believe.
I am highly sceptical of this claim. Can you point me directly to the pertinent information? For one thing, if a person’s life is not yet over how can anyone arrive at the conclusion that they are likely to return to faith before they die?
I couldn’t find anything on-line about Cicely Saunders religious views. In what way do you see the "new atheists" as close minded.
I must travel in a different crowd. None of the atheists I know are drug users nor alcoholics.
What’s interesting too are stories of how devout Christians became atheists; for example: William Lobdell’s Losing My Religion and Dan Barker’s Godless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists.
I don’t believe public schools teach atheism. Certainly that is not my experience. However, you are probably identifying the teaching of evolution with atheism. I came to atheism completely independently of any obvious external influence.
How large was the sample? Personally, I find this very difficult to believe.
I am highly sceptical of this claim. Can you point me directly to the pertinent information? For one thing, if a person’s life is not yet over how can anyone arrive at the conclusion that they are likely to return to faith before they die?
Last edited: