Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[VCO]

Ephesians 5:11 (GW)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Have nothing to do with the useless works that darkness produces. Instead, expose them for what they are.


Light certainly will produce the opposite: GOOD WORKS

 

[konroh]

James 2:18 (ESV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

And what is James response to this objector? Come on, what does James call this person who says, "I will show you my faith by my works"?

James calls this person a fool! Do you get this?

The passage is not talking about showing one's faith by one's works. To say that it does goes against the very words James says. He calls that person a fool.

But what he does say is that one's faith should be useful, profitable, productive and alive, and one does that by growing it through works. Faith without works is dead.

If I see a dead body laying on the ground, it of course is real, it's there. But it's not alive. It's dead. A dead faith cannot and does not save sanctificationally or justify one before man, but a dead faith is still something that exists.

One can be saved (justified) and not be saved (sanctified). James calls his hearers "Brethren" he believed they were Christians. But he warned them not to have a dead faith that isn't made vibrant by works. He wasn't calling them to show their faith by their works (that person is a fool), he was calling them to grow their faith by their works.

 

[VCO]

James 2:18 (ESV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

And what is James response to this objector? Come on, what does James call this person who says, "I will show you my faith by my works"?

James calls this person a fool! Do you get this?

The passage is not talking about showing one's faith by one's works. To say that it does goes against the very words James says. He calls that person a fool.

But what he does say is that one's faith should be useful, profitable, productive and alive, and one does that by growing it through works. Faith without works is dead.

If I see a dead body laying on the ground, it of course is real, it's there. But it's not alive. It's dead. A dead faith cannot and does not save sanctificationally or justify one before man, but a dead faith is still something that exists.

One can be saved (justified) and not be saved (sanctified). James calls his hearers "Brethren" he believed they were Christians. But he warned them not to have a dead faith that isn't made vibrant by works. He wasn't calling them to show their faith by their works (that person is a fool), he was calling them to grow their faith by their works.

I appears you got that explanation backwards:

James 2:18
True faith and good works are inseparable. James shows this by giving us a snatch from a debate between two men. The first man, who is genuinely saved, is the speaker. The second professes to have faith, but he does not demonstrate that faith by good works. The first is heard delivering an unanswerable challenge to the other. We might paraphrase the conversation: "Yes," the first man may correctly and justifiably say, "you say you have faith, but you do not have works to demonstrate it. I claim that faith must be backed up by a life of works. Prove to me that you have faith without a life of good works. You cannot do it. Faith is invisible. The only way others can know you have faith is by a life that demonstrates it. I will show you my faith by my works." The key to this verse lies in the word show: To show faith apart from works is impossible.
Believer's Bible Commentary: A Thorough, Yet Easy-to-Read Bible Commentary That Turns Complicated Theology Into Practical Understanding.

James 2:18
"Faith, if it hath not works, is dead." The faith is dead? Why? Because living faith, saving faith, produces works. You have to draw that conclusion from James' illustration. He is talking about the fruit of faith. Paul talks about the root of faith. Those are the separate emphases of each man, but both Paul and James say that faith alone saves. Paul also says that faith is going to produce fruit -- "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace..." (Gal. 5:22). The Lord Jesus said, "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit..." (John 15:5).

Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee.

James 2:18
A third characteristic of dead faith is shallow conviction, a recognition of certain facts about God and His Word without submission to either.
It seems most likely that someone refers to James himself, speaking of himself using the third person out of humility. He was not boasting, trying to prove that his own Christian life was more exemplary than another's. He was not speaking primarily about faithfulness in the faith but about faith itself. He was saying, in effect, to anyone opposing the truth he was declaring about true salvation, "You claim to have faith and that nothing else is necessary, that your faith can stand by itself before God and bring salvation. But the truth is, you cannot show me your faith without the works, without any practical evidence or outworking of it, because true faith always gives practical evidence. You cannot demonstrate your kind of faith because you have nothing to demonstrate it with." As just stated in the previous verse, "Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself." Such faith is not really faith at all, certainly not saving faith. As noted above, living faith produces good fruit, for that is its nature and its purpose. Dead faith does not because it cannot.

MacArthur New Testament Commentary, The - MacArthur New Testament Commentary – James.

James 2:18
Show me thy faith without thy works—Your pretending to have faith, while you have no works of charity or mercy, is utterly vain: for as faith, which is a principle in the mind, cannot be discerned but by the effects, that is, good works; he who has no good works has, presumptively, no faith.
I will show thee my faith by my works—My works of charity and mercy will show that I have faith; and that it is the living tree, whose root is love to God and man, and whose fruit is the good works here contended for.

Adam Clarke's Commentary.

 

[Cassian]

James 2:18 (ESV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

And what is James response to this objector? Come on, what does James call this person who says, "I will show you my faith by my works"?

James calls this person a fool! Do you get this?

The passage is not talking about showing one's faith by one's works. To say that it does goes against the very words James says. He calls that person a fool.

But what he does say is that one's faith should be useful, profitable, productive and alive, and one does that by growing it through works. Faith without works is dead.

If I see a dead body laying on the ground, it of course is real, it's there. But it's not alive. It's dead. A dead faith cannot and does not save sanctificationally or justify one before man, but a dead faith is still something that exists.

One can be saved (justified) and not be saved (sanctified). James calls his hearers "Brethren" he believed they were Christians. But he warned them not to have a dead faith that isn't made vibrant by works. He wasn't calling them to show their faith by their works (that person is a fool), he was calling them to grow their faith by their works.

There is no such thing as being Justified(saved). Definitely not if one is not longer being sanctified. If one is being saved through their faith and then loses faith, how can one remain justified by that faith?

 

[VCO]

There is no such thing as being Justified(saved). Definitely not if one is not longer being sanctified. If one is being saved through their faith and then loses faith, how can one remain justified by that faith?

Romans 5:1 (ESV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore, since we have been justified by faith (PAST TENSE), we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

THEN LOSE THAT FAITH ? ? ? That statement is not Biblical. In appearing to LOSE THAT FAITH, they validate that they NEVER had that SAVING FAITH in the first place, they settled for something LESS, and only professed to be Christian.

1 John 2:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

 

[Cassian]

Romans 5:1 (ESV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Therefore, since we have been justified by faith (PAST TENSE), we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

but being justified does not mean one is saved. It simply means that we have been placed into a correct relationship with Christ. We are now IN Christ so that our salvation can begin and take place.

THEN LOSE THAT FAITH ? ? ? That statement is not Biblical. In appearing to LOSE THAT FAITH, they validate that they NEVER had that SAVING FAITH in the first place, they settled for something LESS, and only professed to be Christian.

1 John 2:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

there is no such thing as saving faith. There are all kinds of faith. Those that enter ar probably weak in faith, or quantity of faith is low, or quality of faith is less, so we can have weak faith, strong faith, maturing faith, mature faith, growing faith, even intermittant faith. But no faith or being unfaithful is a different story.

As long as man lives on this earth, he cannot guarantee his faith. There is always the possibility that one can fall or one can outright reject him after years of bearing good fruit. Regarding man's personal salvation there is no text that guarantees that he is saved - past tense finitely.

 

[newlight]

In order for one to become a Christian, he MUST faithfully obey God in doing works of believing, Jn 8;24; repentance, Lk 13:3,5 confession, Matt 10:32,33 and submit to baptism, Mk 16:16.


Then upon becoming a Christian and remaining saved, the Christian MUST maintain an obedient faith, Rev 2:10, keeping Christ works Rev 2:26, continue walking in the light so all his sin can continually be cleansed, 1 Jn 1:7 and do good works that God pre-ordained Christians to wallk in, Eph 2:10, Matt 25:32ff


It therefore is IMPOSSIBLE for a man to do nothing his entire life and yet still be saved. No verse says "do nothing" to become a Christian and "do nothing" to remain a faithful Christian.



A thought:

1 Tim 5:8 "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."

If I had to go out and get a job to WORK in order to provide for those of my own house, else be a faithless infidel, does that secular WORK I am doing mean that I am trying to merit my salvation, ie, keep from being a lost, faithless infidel?

If eternal security were true, does that mean I do not have to work to provide for my house and can still be saved as a fatihless infidel?
So can anyone demonstrate how a man can never do ANY KIND of work his entire life yet still be saved?

Hello,

Salvation through obedience to faith...
Righteousness through obedience to the same faith.
Bringing forth the fruits of the Kingdom, (salvation of man) >> work (usually joyful)...

 

[LT]

There is no such thing as being Justified(saved). Definitely not if one is not longer being sanctified. If one is being saved through their faith and then loses faith, how can one remain justified by that faith?

because faith is given to us by God.

It is not our faithfulness that saves us, but God's faithfulness that saves us.
If we are depending on our effort, then we have no faith in God.

We don't do good works and bear fruit out of fear of hell, but out of a desire to reciprocate the love granted us and gratitude for the blessing we have received through the Holy Spirit.


I don't think a person can have a saving relationship with God, and yet not have enough faith in God to try to pursue holiness.

 

[LT]

we must remember that faith and faithfulness can not be separated.
but also must remember who is the giver of faith: God the One and Only.
And He also gives faith in whatever measure He deems, and to whomever He chooses.
Some will be given great faith, but even faith the size of a mustard seed is enough to save.

 

[VCO]

That may be your definition but that is not what scripture states regarding baptizm. John 3:5 very clearly states that one does NOT enter unless one is baptized both by water and the Spirit.

As you indicated, it is a matter of the heart. If the person is true to his heart, then he will be baptized. If he did not really believe, just an emotional thing, he probably will not be baptized, thus not in the Body of Christ.

Rom 6:3-4 is the precise description of baptism. It also states very clearly that one is not in the Body of Christ until one is baptized. Belief is meaningless without baptism. It is regenerating the union between God and man, for which man was created.

Respective of scripture, the Holy Spirit does not operate outside of the means that He has established within His Church from the beginning.

><>t<><

Okay let's put your theory to the TEST of Scripture:

John 3:5 (ASV) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (KJV) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (NKJV) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (NASB) says BORN of water.John 3:5 (HCSB) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (NRSV) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (ESV) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (NASB) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (NIV) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (GWT) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (NET) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (NCV) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (NLT) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (RSV) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (TLB) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (WNT) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (YLT) says BORN of water.

Proverbs 30:6 (ASV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Add thou not unto his words, Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Here are verses 5 and 6 in the New King James Version. NOTICE HE appears to specifically define what HE meant by born of water in verse 6.

John 3:5-6 (ASV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!
[SUP]6 [/SUP] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 

[Jabberjaw]

><>t<><

Okay let's put your theory to the TEST of Scripture:

John 3:5 (ASV) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (KJV) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (NKJV) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (NASB) says BORN of water.John 3:5 (HCSB) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (NRSV) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (ESV) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (NASB) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (NIV) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (GWT) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (NET) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (NCV) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (NLT) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (RSV) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (TLB) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (WNT) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (YLT) says BORN of water.

Proverbs 30:6 (ASV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Add thou not unto his words, Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Here are verses 5 and 6 in the New King James Version. NOTICE HE appears to specifically define what HE meant by born of water in verse 6.

John 3:5-6 (ASV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!
[SUP]6 [/SUP] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Notice in verse 6 he said "born of the flesh is flesh" not "born of the water is flesh",

So what we have here is verse 5 Jesus says "except one be born of water and the Spirit" these two are one with the conjunctive "and", that Jesus says we must born of, CONTRASTING the natural birth in verse 6 that Nicodemus was speaking of "born of flesh is flesh".

Your taking verses out of context.

 

[Cassian]

because faith is given to us by God.

faith is given to all men.

It is not our faithfulness that saves us, but God's faithfulness that saves us.
If we are depending on our effort, then we have no faith in God.

God cannot save you either. That is why it takes two parties to the Covenant. Man and God. It both God's faithfulness, which He has guaranteed, but also man's faithfulness which no man can guarnatee.

We don't do good works and bear fruit out of fear of hell, but out of a desire to reciprocate the love granted us and gratitude for the blessing we have received through the Holy Spirit.

which is good, but not all men want to do that, and even those that first believed have changed their minds, history is full of examples.

I don't think a person can have a saving relationship with God, and yet not have enough faith in God to try to pursue holiness.

I thought you just stated it is all God and not man. Now you state man can try to persue. Which is it?

 

[Cassian]

we must remember that faith and faithfulness can not be separated.
but also must remember who is the giver of faith: God the One and Only.
And He also gives faith in whatever measure He deems, and to whomever He chooses.
Some will be given great faith, but even faith the size of a mustard seed is enough to save.

All men have faith. It is up to man to use any gift given to Him. The parable of the Talents bears this our perfectly. If we use the gifts we were given, we will receive more, which is why faith is also one of the gifts of the Spirit.

 

[Cassian]

><>t<><

Okay let's put your theory to the TEST of Scripture:

John 3:5 (ASV) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (KJV) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (NKJV) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (NASB) says BORN of water.John 3:5 (HCSB) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (NRSV) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (ESV) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (NASB) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (NIV) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (GWT) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (NET) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (NCV) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (NLT) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (RSV) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (TLB) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (WNT) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (YLT) says BORN of water.

Proverbs 30:6 (ASV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Add thou not unto his words, Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Here are verses 5 and 6 in the New King James Version. NOTICE HE appears to specifically define what HE meant by born of water in verse 6.

John 3:5-6 (ASV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!
[SUP]6 [/SUP]That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So it says exactly what I stated it meant. One must be born of water and the Spirit. The Spirit works through the water. It is one of the reasons that Christ was baptised in the water. He sanctified water, actually all of creation and creation can be used by God to convey His grace. Every single mystery of the Church has a physical aspect to them. Starting with man himself. Our lives are supposed to be a living sacrifice to God. The Church is a mystery, a physical reality of His grace for those within His Body, the Church. Baptism, Eucharist, confession, consecration, chrismation, marriage all have physical parts to them. This is also exemplified with most of Christ's miracles.

Let me ask you a question. Do you think it is possible for a person to be saved by the Spirit and not have been born physically?

 

[Jabberjaw]

we must remember that faith and faithfulness can not be separated.
but also must remember who is the giver of faith: God the One and Only.
And He also gives faith in whatever measure He deems, and to whomever He chooses.
Some will be given great faith, but even faith the size of a mustard seed is enough to save.

faith "cometh" by "hearing" so if one does not "hear" then faith does not come, therefore "faith" is conditional upon "hearing" making "hearing" something someone MUST DO :

 Romans 10:17 (NKJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Kerry]

Salvation comes by the cross, sanctification comes through faith in the cross. Water baptism has nothing to do with it.

Whosoever believes in their heart and confesses with their mouth the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved. ​ God don't need our help.

 

[LT]

faith "cometh" by "hearing" so if one does not "hear" then faith does not come, therefore "faith" is conditional upon "hearing" making "hearing" something someone MUST DO :

 Romans 10:17 (NKJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

this is all true.
calling faith 'conditional' is a bit strange to say, but I suppose I understand your point.
Regardless, God is still sovereign over who hears, and who will accept what is heard.

Our God is an awesome and sovereign God!

 

[Cassian]

Salvation comes by the cross, sanctification comes through faith in the cross. Water baptism has nothing to do with it.

Whosoever believes in their heart and confesses with their mouth the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved. ​ God don't need our help.

Just on the basis of what you stated it is a contradiction. obviously God needs our help. Believing is help. He does not save your irrespective of one believing, and then scripture spends most of the ink explaining just what believing means in the context of our salvation.

 

[Cassian]

this is all true.
calling faith 'conditional' is a bit strange to say, but I suppose I understand your point.
Regardless, God is still sovereign over who hears, and who will accept what is heard.

Our God is an awesome and sovereign God!

which is a strange way to put it as well, since all men will make a decision about God. God is calling all men to repentence, God leaves no stone unturned to make sure that every single human being has the ability the capability to respond to God.

 

[VCO]

So it says exactly what I stated it meant. One must be born of water and the Spirit. The Spirit works through the water. It is one of the reasons that Christ was baptised in the water. He sanctified water, actually all of creation and creation can be used by God to convey His grace. Every single mystery of the Church has a physical aspect to them. Starting with man himself. Our lives are supposed to be a living sacrifice to God. The Church is a mystery, a physical reality of His grace for those within His Body, the Church. Baptism, Eucharist, confession, consecration, chrismation, marriage all have physical parts to them. This is also exemplified with most of Christ's miracles.

Let me ask you a question. Do you think it is possible for a person to be saved by the Spirit and not have been born physically?

Put your thinking cap on! The human spirit was not born to spiritual life at natural birth; therefore you must be born again.

The human spirit was Dead to the Will of GOD at natural birth, because of the inherited sin nature from ADAM.

BUT the Holy Spirit the moment we believe receiving Jesus as LORD, brings out once Dead to the Will of GOD; TO BE ETERNALLY ALIVE to the will of GOD.

THAT is what HE is talking about.

To answer your question about Saved by the Spirit before Natural Birth:

IF John the Baptist had been still born, YES.

DO I believe all still born or aborted infants go to HEAVEN? YES!

Sin is NOT imputed before the LAW, meaning before knowledge of Right from Wrong.