Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[eternally-gratefull]

So instead of at least giving one piece of evidence you just regurgitate the same assertion. Do you think if you say it often enough it might be true?

How does it feel? You do this all the time, Just like you did with Col 2: 11-14.

Talk about being hypocritical.

You want proof. Read the bible with an open heart. You will see proof.

But you will not do this, You trust men to much.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He was speaking to the same people when he commanded "repent and be baptized". He did not tell one crowd "repent" and another different crowd somewhere else "be baptized".

He did not tell everyone to be baptized. He did command everyone to repent.

Thats all you need to know..

Next.

As I posted earlier, Peter uses very specific language that each one in his crowd is to be baptized, not leaving any single person out.

Yes he did. He used a 2nd person command to repent.For those of us who understand language, It means people spoken to. Then he switched to a third person singular. Which again for those who study, Know a 3rd person means it is someone or something who is spoken about not too. The subject in the clause is remmision of sin, So he was speaking to those who had recieved remission of sin.

A Literature teacher can tell her class of 30 students: " You all (plural) go to the library and write a report on book "x""

All the 30 students can go to the library and all get together and write one report together and turn in that one report to the teacher. They 'technically" did what the teacher asked.


If the teacher used specific language as Peter she would have said "You all (plural) go to the library and each one of you (singular) write a report on book "x""

Then the teacher could expect 30 reports, one report from each student. The teachers specific language would not allow any student get out from writing his own report as Peter's specific words did not let any of his audience get out of being baptized.

The only problem with this is both yours are second person. Nice try but it does not fit.

the only reason she would use a third person is if not everyone wrote a report. Then she would say you go read a book, and you can get extra credit for writing a report.

Only those who write the report get extra credit. The third person subject is report.

Nice try, But you need to study more.

 

[notuptome]

You should know that Strongs will give the least inflected word or the strongs number, and it is up to you to select from the several definitions given by proper use of context.

Baptizo means to immerse or dip, dunk, but it does not in its self define what the component is that one is immersed in.

Since context of Mat 3:11 and Luke 3:16 say there are three things a person can be baptized in, it to says there is only 1 thing a disciple baptize someone in and that is water, all others are by Jesus Christ,

Matthew 3:11 (KJV) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Men were commissioned to go throughout the world and baptizing, not to go throughout the world so Jesus could baptize.

 Matthew 28:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

The baptism that remits sins is through immersion in water.

When you see yourself as a hammer the whole world looks like a nail to you.

You refuse to see so you shall remain blind.

The only baptism that remits sins is the Holy Spirit baptism which is administered by God the moment we ask Christ to save us from our sins.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Jabberjaw]

When you see yourself as a hammer the whole world looks like a nail to you.

You refuse to see so you shall remain blind.

If the hammer is the bible, and you are the nail, well the hammer missed the nail because you don't get it...

The only baptism that remits sins is the Holy Spirit baptism which is administered by God the moment we ask Christ to save us from our sins.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Ill post this again for you, Ill show you again where the disciples were commissioned to "baptize" not commissioned "so Jesus could baptize", making water baptism the saving baptism of Eph 4:5, read it slower, then don't just tell me "The only baptism that remits sins is the Holy Spirit baptism"
Show me :

You should know that Strongs will give the least inflected word or the strongs number, and it is up to you to select from the several definitions given by proper use of context.

Baptizo means to immerse or dip, dunk, but it does not in its self define what the component is that one is immersed in.

Since context of Mat 3:11 and Luke 3:16 say there are three things a person can be baptized in, it to says there is only 1 thing a disciple baptize someone in and that is water, all others are by Jesus Christ,

Matthew 3:11 (KJV) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Men were commissioned to go throughout the world and baptizing, not to go throughout the world so Jesus could baptize.

 Matthew 28:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

The baptism that remits sins is through immersion in water.

 

[Cassian]

How does it feel? You do this all the time, Just like you did with Col 2: 11-14.

Talk about being hypocritical.

You want proof. Read the bible with an open heart. You will see proof.

But you will not do this, You trust men to much.

I don't think I have done it at all. What I explained to you regarding Col 2:11-14 is historical fact of understanding.
Citing scripture and adding your opinion does not make it factual. Your method of interpretation has a history of 500 years where men have developed all kinds of interpretations. You are the one trusting in men. You trust mostly in yourself.
However, if you think Col 2:12 is not about water baptism, cite some evidence that will corroborate your understanding.
Also cite any evidence that Rom 6:3-4 is NOT speaking of water baptism.

 

[VCO]

In order for one to become a Christian, he MUST faithfully obey God in doing works of believing, Jn 8;24; repentance, Lk 13:3,5 confession, Matt 10:32,33 and submit to baptism, Mk 16:16.


Then upon becoming a Christian and remaining saved, the Christian MUST maintain an obedient faith, Rev 2:10, keeping Christ works Rev 2:26, continue walking in the light so all his sin can continually be cleansed, 1 Jn 1:7 and do good works that God pre-ordained Christians to wallk in, Eph 2:10, Matt 25:32ff


It therefore is IMPOSSIBLE for a man to do nothing his entire life and yet still be saved. No verse says "do nothing" to become a Christian and "do nothing" to remain a faithful Christian.



A thought:

1 Tim 5:8 "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."

If I had to go out and get a job to WORK in order to provide for those of my own house, else be a faithless infidel, does that secular WORK I am doing mean that I am trying to merit my salvation, ie, keep from being a lost, faithless infidel?

If eternal security were true, does that mean I do not have to work to provide for my house and can still be saved as a fatihless infidel?



So can anyone demonstrate how a man can never do ANY KIND of work his entire life yet still be saved?

I agree that genuine Salvation will produce the desire and ability via the Holy Spirit in us to do good works.

HOWEVER, if you are saying you must earn part of your Salvation via your works, you will fin it IMPOSSIBLE to make that theory square with this Scripture:

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]If anyone builds on that foundation with gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, or straw,
[SUP]13 [/SUP]each one’s work will become obvious, for the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire; the fire will test the quality of each one’s work.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]If anyone’s work that he has built survives, he will receive a reward.
[SUP]15[/SUP]If anyone’s work is burned up, it will be lost, but he will be saved; yet it will be like an escape through fire.

I think that makes it OBVIOUS, works have nothing to do with Salvation, but they do have a lot to do with heavenly Rewards.

 

[VCO]

I don't think I have done it at all. What I explained to you regarding Col 2:11-14 is historical fact of understanding.
Citing scripture and adding your opinion does not make it factual. Your method of interpretation has a history of 500 years where men have developed all kinds of interpretations. You are the one trusting in men. You trust mostly in yourself.
However, if you think Col 2:12 is not about water baptism, cite some evidence that will corroborate your understanding.
Also cite any evidence that Rom 6:3-4 is NOT speaking of water baptism.

1 Corinthians 12:12-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For as the body is one and has many parts, and all the parts of that body, though many, are one body—so also is Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.


It says "into one body" NOT into water.

It says "we were all", not most of us.

When was the thief on the Cross Baptized into water?

When was Abraham Baptized into water?

When was Moses Baptized into water?

When was Enoch, or Elijah, or David, or Ezekial, or Isaiah, or any other Old Testament saint baptized in water?



THEY WERE NOT!

HOWEVER, EVERY single true believer that has received their MESSIAH as LORD, were ALL Baptized by the HOLY SPIRIT HIMSELF into that ONE SPIRITUAL BODY that we know as JESUS CHRIST.

 

[Cassian]

1 Corinthians 12:12-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For as the body is one and has many parts, and all the parts of that body, though many, are one body—so also is Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
It says "into one body" NOT into water.

It says "we were all", not most of us.

When was the thief on the Cross Baptized into water?

When was Abraham Baptized into water?

When was Moses Baptized into water?

When was Enoch, or Elijah, or David, or Ezekial, or Isaiah, or any other Old Testament saint baptized in water?



THEY WERE NOT!

HOWEVER, EVERY single true believer that has received their MESSIAH as LORD, were ALL Baptized by the HOLY SPIRIT HIMSELF into that ONE SPIRITUAL BODY that we know as JESUS CHRIST.

I never even heard of the possibility of being baptised INTO WATER. However, it does clearly state that in order to be IN Christ, one must be baptised WITH WATER. John 3:5. This baptism has been used since Pentecost, Peter baptised 3000 souls into Christ. There has been ONLY ONE baptism since Pentecost. It has always been with Water. It was included in the Nicene Creed way back in the 4th century at the First Ecumenical Council. A Church document written late first century explains, among other things, how one is to baptise, gives the form, the method, and reason.

However, if you have any evidence to the contrary, cite them.

 

[VCO]

I never even heard of the possibility of being baptised INTO WATER. However, it does clearly state that in order to be IN Christ, one must be baptised WITH WATER. John 3:5. This baptism has been used since Pentecost, Peter baptised 3000 souls into Christ. There has been ONLY ONE baptism since Pentecost. It has always been with Water. It was included in the Nicene Creed way back in the 4th century at the First Ecumenical Council. A Church document written late first century explains, among other things, how one is to baptise, gives the form, the method, and reason.

However, if you have any evidence to the contrary, cite them.

The Greek Word for baptize is "baptizo", and it means to immerse, plunge, or submerge into something.

During the Baptisms in most Churches the Believer is immersed into water, however some Churches use sprinkling or pouring instead.

The IMMERSION that Saves though, is the IMMERSION into the spiritual body of Christ, which happens the very moment one genuinely Believes, receiving Jesus Christ as LORD. THAT IS PURELY a work of the HOLY SPIRIT Himself, bringing our once dead to the Will of God human spirit to Eternal Life (born again), giving us that gift of FAITH because of HIS GRACE ONLY.

Whereas, climbing into a Baptistery is a work of obedience, where we are picturing what has already happened in out hearts when the Holy Spirit Baptized us into the spiritual body of Jesus Christ. In taking that step of obedience we are not adding something to our Salvation, but rather we are making a PUBLIC Statement of our personal relationship with JESUS CHRIST as our LORD, which means MASTER; picturing our willingness to OBEY HIM.

 

[Shava]

He did not tell everyone to be baptized. He did command everyone to repent.

Thats all you need to know..

Next.



Yes he did. He used a 2nd person command to repent.For those of us who understand language, It means people spoken to. Then he switched to a third person singular. Which again for those who study, Know a 3rd person means it is someone or something who is spoken about not too. The subject in the clause is remmision of sin, So he was speaking to those who had recieved remission of sin.





The only problem with this is both yours are second person. Nice try but it does not fit.

the only reason she would use a third person is if not everyone wrote a report. Then she would say you go read a book, and you can get extra credit for writing a report.

Only those who write the report get extra credit. The third person subject is report.

Nice try, But you need to study more.

Hello friend, hope your nights going well. If he told them all to repent that means all were baptized because he didn't say just repent, he said repent and be baptized if you read the verse, or show me where it just says repent and not repent and be baptized.

 

[Cassian]

The Greek Word for baptize is "baptizo", and it means to immerse, plunge, or submerge into something.

During the Baptisms in most Churches the Believer is immersed into water, however some Churches use sprinkling or pouring instead.

The IMMERSION that Saves though, is the IMMERSION into the spiritual body of Christ, which happens the very moment one genuinely Believes, receiving Jesus Christ as LORD. THAT IS PURELY a work of the HOLY SPIRIT Himself, bringing our once dead to the Will of God human spirit to Eternal Life (born again), giving us that gift of FAITH because of HIS GRACE ONLY.

Whereas, climbing into a Baptistery is a work of obedience, where we are picturing what has already happened in out hearts when the Holy Spirit Baptized us into the spiritual body of Jesus Christ. In taking that step of obedience we are not adding something to our Salvation, but rather we are making a PUBLIC Statement of our personal relationship with JESUS CHRIST as our LORD, which means MASTER; picturing our willingness to OBEY HIM.

That may be your definition but that is not what scripture states regarding baptizm. John 3:5 very clearly states that one does NOT enter unless one is baptized both by water and the Spirit.

As you indicated, it is a matter of the heart. If the person is true to his heart, then he will be baptized. If he did not really believe, just an emotional thing, he probably will not be baptized, thus not in the Body of Christ.

Rom 6:3-4 is the precise description of baptism. It also states very clearly that one is not in the Body of Christ until one is baptized. Belief is meaningless without baptism. It is regenerating the union between God and man, for which man was created.

Respective of scripture, the Holy Spirit does not operate outside of the means that He has established within His Church from the beginning.

 

[VCO]

That may be your definition but that is not what scripture states regarding baptizm. John 3:5 very clearly states that one does NOT enter unless one is baptized both by water and the Spirit.

As you indicated, it is a matter of the heart. If the person is true to his heart, then he will be baptized. If he did not really believe, just an emotional thing, he probably will not be baptized, thus not in the Body of Christ.

Rom 6:3-4 is the precise description of baptism. It also states very clearly that one is not in the Body of Christ until one is baptized. Belief is meaningless without baptism. It is regenerating the union between God and man, for which man was created.

Respective of scripture, the Holy Spirit does not operate outside of the means that He has established within His Church from the beginning.

Oh my, you do not understand verse 5 at all, because you did not see it's essential link to verse 6. IT DOES NOT USE THE WORD BAPTIZED AT ALL IN THAT VERSE, IT SAYS "BORN". Here read it in it's context:

John 3:5-6 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Jesus answered,"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

See it now? He is talking about the breaking of water at natural child birth, and being spiritually BORN AGAIN by the Holy Spirit HIMSELF, when HE brings our once Dead to the Will of GOD human spirit to become Eternally ALIVE to the Will of GOD.

To paraphrase it, He is saying: "Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born physically AND spiritually, he cannot enter the kingdom of GOD."

 

[And]

The definition of salvation is ceasing to do evil works and beginning to do good works

salvation is not possible if you refuse salvation (doing Gods works)

 

[And]

John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

 

[mailmandan]

Mk 16:16 is a compound sentence with two different subjects.

If we look at this verse closely, we see that it is composed of two basic statements. 1—He who believes and is baptized will be saved. 2—He who does not believe will be condemned. Clearly, the determining factor regarding whether one is saved or condemned is whether or not he believes. In interpreting this passage correctly, it is important to realize that while it tells us something about believers who have been baptized (they will be saved), it does not say anything about believers who have not been baptized. In order for this verse to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation, a third statement would have had to be included, that statement being: “He who believes and is not baptized will be condemned” or “He who is not baptized will be condemned.” But, of course, neither of these statements is found in the verse.

Mk 16:16a deals with the subject of salvation and puts belief and baptism BEFORE salvation making both requirements to being saved.

False. Again, He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief.

Mk 16;16b deals with the subject of condemnation and makes unbelief the only requirement to be lost. THerefore one does not have to both not believe and not be baptized to be lost, unbelief is sufficient to being lost.

Yet nowhere does the Bible say that whoever is not baptized will be condemned. Jesus did say, He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So the requiremnts to being saved (belief and baptism) are different from the requirement to being lost (unbelief), one had nothing to do with the other.

Since Jesus clarifies the first clause with "but he who does not believe will be condemned," then baptism signifies salvation and there are not two conditions to being saved here. Where did Jesus mention two conditions in these 9 verses? John 3:15 - that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 5:24 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 6:29 - Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." John 6:40 - And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:47 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. John 11:25 - Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. John 6:26 - And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" Did Jesus forget to mention baptism?

Also in Mk 16:16a Jesus used a sequence of prerequsite steps...one cannot be saved until he is baptized.

Is that what Jesus said in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? Which prerequisite steps did He use here? Simply BELIEVES. Jesus NEVER said whoever is not baptized will not be saved. You seem to have more faith in baptism for salvation than you do in Jesus. That's not believing in Him but believing in baptism.

One cannot be baptized unless he first believes...believe > baptized > saved.

So you admit that believes precedes baptism and believes is not baptism. These are two distinct things. I already showed you where Jesus said 9 different times that whoever believes will be saved (without mentioning baptism). Now read Acts 10:43 - whoever (gets water baptized? NO) believes in Him will receive remission of sins. Acts 13:39 - all that (get water baptized? NO) believe is justified from all things.. Acts 16:31 - Believe in the Lord Jesus, (and get baptized? NO. Simply believe) and you will be saved. The Bible says believe and be saved, yet you say believe and still remain lost. Who should I believe? You or the Bible?

Since Jesus made belief a prerequsite to being baptized, that impliles an unbeliever cannot be baptized and be saved.

An unbeliever cannot be saved whether he gets baptized or not. There are plenty of unbelievers (and I'm not talking about atheists) that get water baptized in various false religions and cults, but they don't truly believe. They may believe in the existence of Christ and in the historical facts about Him, but a saved believer trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation and not in works. Anything short of faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ's finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of salvation leaves you an unbeliever.

Just because baptism is not mentioned in every salvic verse in no way means it is not required. Many times 'believe" is used as a synecdoche (a part for the whoel) where "believe" includes being baptized.

That is absolutely false. Believe does not include baptism. Believing is trusting in Christ for salvation. Baptism is being immersed in water afterwards. Two distinct actions. Trying to shoe horn baptism into believe is flawed hermeneutics. Do you also try to shoe horn good works in general into believe? Do you teach that believe is a synecdoche for good works as well? This is works salvation anyway you slice it.

Anyone that loves God must keep His commandments.

Must or will? Keeping His commandments is not forced or legalistic for those who love God. What do you believe it means to "keep" His commandments?

Unbelievers must keep his commandments to get into a sved positoin and belivers must keep his commandments to remain in a saved positon....Jude commanded Christians "keep yoursleves inthe love of God" [v21] and Christians do that by keeping His commandments.

You read the Bible through the lens of works salvation. Keep yourselves in the love of God is supplemented with three circumstantial participles of means in the original; they answer the question, "How does one keep himself in the love of God?" By building yourselves up in your most holy faith; by praying in the Holy Spirit; and by looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. Was Peter, Barnabas and the rest of the Jews keeping themselves in the love of God in this situation at Antioch in Galatians 2:11-15? Was anything said about them not remaining saved? The phrase "keep yourselves in His love" does not convey the idea that we need to keep God loving us by good works to maintain our salvation. The word "keep" means to attend to carefully, take care of, guard. We do this by building ourselves up in our most holy faith; by praying in the Holy Spirit; and by looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. If we temporarily stumble in an area of our life, does that mean in those moments that we are attending to carefully, taking care of, guarding the love of God? Jude did not say here to keep yourself saved by works.

No, I am not perfectly sinless and God is not expecting or looking for perfection but God has always looked for an obedient faith as He got from Abraham who was not perfectly sinless. Eph 1:4 and 2 Pet 3:14 say that the Christian is to be holy, without spot, without blame. SO how can a Chrisitan who ocasionally sins ever be without spot and without blame?>>>>

Without the blood of Christ, none of us would be holy, without spot, without blame.

1 Jn 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."


1) IF is a condtional owrd, I have a choice to walk or not walk in the light as a Christian.


2) both verbs walk and cleasneth are present tense, an ongoing, sustained action.

You need to read verse 6 and 7 together. 1 John 1:6-7 - IF we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. Does that describe a Christian to you? 1 John 3:10 - By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. 1 John 2:11 - But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes. As you can clearly see, those who walk in darkness are children of the devil, not Christians. But IF we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of lost unbelievers. Walking in the light is descriptive of saved believers. Only saved believers are in the light. Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me. 2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? Lost unbelievers walk in darkness, not in the light. Genuine saved believers walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

So if I have an obedient faith (even though I occasionally sin) and CONTINUE to walk inthe light, then Christ's blood CONTINUES to cleanse ALL my sins leaving me without spot and blame. IF I quot obeying completely, quit walking inthe light all together, then Chris't blood no longer cleanses away all my sins, I thin have spot and blame and will be lost (if I do not rpent and return to walking in the light).

You need to have faith that trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation and not in water and works. If our faith is not trusting exclusively in Christ for salvation, then we are still in darkness and walk in darkness regardless of how religious we think we are and try to be.

Faith only does not get Christ's blood to cleanse away all my sins. Walking includes a faithful obedience in repenting, keeping Christ's works unto the end, being faithful unto death, Rev 2:10,26.

You turned this into salvation by works. Being faithful unto death could include any number of works, according to your logic. From beginning (Ephesians 2:8) to end (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is through faith in Christ. Keeping Christ's works (not our own works) is accomplished first by "the word of their testimony" which we speak. "Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them [past tense]: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world" (1 John 4:4). The word, "keeps," (same Greek word for "keep" His commandments - John 14:15) in Revelation 2:26, comes from the Greek word tereo Strongs #5083 and means to keep, to guard, to watch over, preserve. The only way to keep His (Christ’s) works, is to continually trust in what He accomplished for us on the Cross. The way that these great and wonderful benefits become ours is because we trust exclusively in Christ for redemption (Romans 4:5; Philippians 3:9).

Again, 1 jn 1:7 faithful obeidnce in walking in the ligh keeps Christ's blood cleanseing away ALL, not some, but ALL my sins keeping me without spot and blame. Faith only does not do this.

Only those with faith walk in the light. When you say faithful obedience, you then imply salvation by works. Those who walk in the light practice righteousness and not sin. Works salvationists does not do this. Without faith it's impossible to please God. I do not teach what James refers to as "faith only," which is an empty profession of faith.

Obedient works in believing repenting confessing and submitting to baptism do save.

Those who believe have already repented and have already confessed. Those who submit to believer's baptism do so because they already believe and are saved (Acts 10:43-47).

 

[mailmandan]

Good works keeps the Christian saved, Eph 2:10.

Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Paul said absolutely nothing here about good works keeping Christians saved. You clearly trust in works for salvation and not in Christ alone. You are on very dangerous ground.

GOd before ordaiend that Chrisians walk in good works, s oit is not possible for a Christian to be saved not walking in good works. One either does good or evil, no inbetween, and if the Christian is not doing good, doing righteousness, obedience then he is doing sin, unrighteousness, disobedience.

There are two camps. 1 John 3:7 - Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. There is no third camp of Christians practicing sin and not righteousness or children of the devil practicing righteousness and not sin.

Not an issue about being 'good enough' but the Chrisian must do good works as he is able...Gal 2:10 "As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith."

Apparently so. Must do good works as he is able? Where do you draw the line in the sand and say you received a passing grade? Doing good works is not forced or legalistic for those who are genuine Christians.

If a Christian has the means to help a fellow Christian but does not then "But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?" 1 Jn 3:17 and he will face the condemnation in Mt 25:41-46.

Does that describe a Christian or a non-Christian? What did John say in 1 John 3:7-10? How does that fit with what Jesus said in Matthew 25:41-46? Which one's are Christians (sheep) and which one's are not? (goats)

It does not matter to me where "faith only" came from, it is not biblical and should be rejected.

Faith that trusts in Christ as the only means of salvation should not be rejected (Ephesians 2:8,9). Faith only (as James describes it) which amounts to an empty profession of faith should be rejected (James 2:14-24). Do you understand the difference between Paul - saved through faith, not works, (faith in Christ alone for salvation, works follow as the fruit so faith is not alone in the sense that it is an empty profession of faith) and James - claims to have faith but has no works, empty profession of faith?

James plainly said faith only does NOT justify but by works a man is justified.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In the Bible the word "justified" is often used in the "legal" (judicial) sense. Paul often uses the word "justified" in this "legal" sense (Romans 3:24,28; 5:1; 5:9; 8:30 etc..). The word justified is also used to show that someone is righteous. James has this aspect of justification in mind. As we have seen, his concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. This is why James says I will SHOW you my faith by my works. Works bear out the justification that comes by faith. A lack of works demonstrates an empty profession of faith.

In Matthew 12:37, "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words reveal the state of our hearts. Words will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of grace and righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or showed God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous."

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds.

In Luke 16:14-15, "Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him. And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God." The Pharisees belief was that their own goodness was what justified them. This is the very definition of "self-righteousness." But, as Jesus explained, their righteousness was flawed, being an external appearance only. That might be enough to justify them before (deceived) men, but not before God, because He knew their hearts.

James uses dikaioo in this sense - to show to be righteous. In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham was essential did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save him, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. Paul, when he uses the term justified, he refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show and prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. James is discussing the proof of faith, not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2,3). What a genuine believer means by salvation through "faith (in Christ) alone" and what James means by "faith only" is NOT the same message. Don't let the word "alone" fool you. It is through faith "in Christ" alone (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*

Again, 1 Jn 1:7 by an obedient faith in walking in the light, that obedient work of sustained "walking" keeps all my sins cleansed away continually, ie, keeps me justified. Again, no verse says faith only does this.

The works James speaks are obedient works, an obedient faith to God as Abraham had, a faith that obeys God's commands, ie, a faith that does God's rightoeusness.

Works salvationists don't do this. Without faith it's impossible to please God. Faith in works is not saving faith.

You post "James does not teach that we are saved "by" works"

James says " by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" James 2:24,

So you interpret James to mean saved by works which explains your doctrine of salvation by works. I already explained above what James meant by justified by works. It does not equate to saved by works, but the natural man can only grasp salvation by works.

Note the order of events as Paul has them in Rom 6;17,18:

1) servants of sins
2) then obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine
3) then freed from sins (justified) servants of righteousness.

Those who believe the gospel have obeyed from the heart (Romans 1:16; 10:16).

Obedient works BEFORE justifcation just as James says by works a man is justified. Many try to reverse this and put 3) before 2) to force it to fit their man-made theologies. as many of those men you quoted did this very thing.

Is that what Paul said in Romans 5:1? Therefore, having been justified by faith, (and works? NO) we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. What about Ephesians 2:8-10? - For by grace you have been saved through faith; (and works? NO) and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus (first, then) unto/for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Once again, when Paul uses the term justified, he refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show and prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. It's obvious that you are trusting in works for salvation and not in Christ alone. Are you ready to repent and believe the gospel?

 

[notuptome]

The definition of salvation is ceasing to do evil works and beginning to do good works

salvation is not possible if you refuse salvation (doing Gods works)

Perhaps that is your definition. Jesus said "It is finished".

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

If the hammer is the bible, and you are the nail, well the hammer missed the nail because you don't get it...

You are not even witty.

The baptism that remits sins is through immersion in water.

If sin were on the outside of man then perhaps water could wash it away. Sin however is a heart matter and must be washed away by the Holy Spirit inside a man. John 20 Jesus breathed upon those in the upper room and said receive ye the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit enters a man's heart and never leaves. Water washes only the outside and soon dries in the sun and air in which we live.

Men cannot save other men. Only God can save men from their sins. No man, no church can do what only God can do yeah delights to do.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't think I have done it at all. What I explained to you regarding Col 2:11-14 is historical fact of understanding.

1. You have
2. What you have given me is a mans understanding. History proves nothing, the jews used history, we see how far it got them.

Citing scripture and adding your opinion does not make it factual.

You call it opinion, but you cant refute or show how the opinion is wrong. it is obvious you do not even wish to talk about it, since all you have done is attack and go round about in circles since I have tried to explain it to you. so why are we even talking? You have no desire. to see. you will not.

Your method of interpretation has a history of 500 years where men have developed all kinds of interpretations. You are the one trusting in men. You trust mostly in yourself.

They said the same about jesus. I guess I am honored to be treated as he was, using history and men to discount his protestent style of teaching.

However, if you think Col 2:12 is not about water baptism, cite some evidence that will corroborate your understanding.

I gave you the evidence, which you have not refuted (and to be honest can not, without again going to your historical church father attack)

1. The context is spiritual circucision
2. The means of this spiritual circumcision is through the baptism
3. The person doing this baptism is God himself, who rose christ from the dead.

there is no other interpretation, unless you think God immersed you in water, and the spiritual meaning is physical. You can throw history at me all you want, it will not change the fact of what it says.,

Also cite any evidence that Rom 6:3-4 is NOT speaking of water baptism.

and again i did this, which you can not refute.

the means of baptism in rom 6 is not water, it is the literal death and burial of Christ, But yo uwould rather listen to men, and not Look at what it literally says, So I am afraid most likely there is no means to help you understand.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hello friend, hope your nights going well. If he told them all to repent that means all were baptized because he didn't say just repent, he said repent and be baptized if you read the verse, or show me where it just says repent and not repent and be baptized.

1. Your reading an english translation. Your reading how men interpreted it.
2. The greek does not support your theory, A 2nd person and 3rd person subject and verbs do not mix. They are separate from each other, and although may be related. They are not the same. It does not mix in english, nor the greek

If you do not wish to see this, I can not help you. nor can anyone else.