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N
We could sit here exchange scripture and opinions all day however, what I would like from all of those who believe in Eternal Security is an explanation concerning the outward fruits of their doctrine being visibly bad.
There are a lot of people out there that we all would agree probably are not saved, who are going to Hell because they have bought into the notion that once you have confessed your sin and have been baptized with water (not realizing that a true change of heart must also take place in order to truly be saved) that you can never lose your salvation.
While I must admit that supporters of Eternal Security do make an excellent case in support of their view, the fact of the matter is your doctrine is too vague and open to interpretation in the minds of many thus folks are going to Hell because of it. For me, this is the straw that broke the camel's back concerning the heretical nature of this doctrine.
There are a lot of people out there that we all would agree probably are not saved, who are going to Hell because they have bought into the notion that once you have confessed your sin and have been baptized with water (not realizing that a true change of heart must also take place in order to truly be saved) that you can never lose your salvation.
While I must admit that supporters of Eternal Security do make an excellent case in support of their view, the fact of the matter is your doctrine is too vague and open to interpretation in the minds of many thus folks are going to Hell because of it. For me, this is the straw that broke the camel's back concerning the heretical nature of this doctrine.
re:
And to go back under the law means to stop trusting in Christ for salvation.
Gal 3:11 But that no one is justified by the Law in the sight of God is clear, for, "The just shall live by faith."
Matthew Henry on "falling from grace":
Christ will not be the Saviour of any who will not own and rely upon him as their only Saviour. Let us take heed to the warnings and persuasions of the apostle to stedfastness in the doctrine and liberty of the gospel.
And to go back under the law means to stop trusting in Christ for salvation.
Gal 3:11 But that no one is justified by the Law in the sight of God is clear, for, "The just shall live by faith."
Matthew Henry on "falling from grace":
Christ will not be the Saviour of any who will not own and rely upon him as their only Saviour. Let us take heed to the warnings and persuasions of the apostle to stedfastness in the doctrine and liberty of the gospel.
N
I am in total agreement that we are saved by Grace and grace alone and that Grace is in deed a gift from God. In my opinion, sanctification has everything to do with overcoming the flesh in preparation for the Kingdom which is now and is to come.
However, from what you all have described, Eternal Security basically eliminates the need for repentance. This is a serious and deadly error.
Since when is repentance considered a work?
However, from what you all have described, Eternal Security basically eliminates the need for repentance. This is a serious and deadly error.
Since when is repentance considered a work?
Faith, repentance, these are good actions "works", and there's nothing in the bible to prohibit doing good works. Is faith a work? Well yeah, at times you have to stop doubts coming into your mind, you have to persevere in prayer and re-affirm the truths by reading and studying scripture , and keep faith alive by prayer and fellowship etc. There's a thing called "encouraging in the faith". Yeah, encouraging, that's a work. These are all things we need to do. "encouraging them to continue in the faith".. if faith was something not of ourselves, there'd be no point in trying to encourage others in the faith would there. or strengthen other's souls:
Act 14:22 strengthening the souls of the disciples and encouraging them to continue in the faith, saying, "We must endure many hardships to get into the kingdom of God."
Keep examining ourselves to see if we are in the faith, yeah that's a work:
2Co 13:5 Keep examining yourselves to see whether you are continuing in the faith.
Resist the devil and remain steadfast in the faith, yeah that's a work..
1Pe 5:9 Whom resist steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
Calvinism often confuses actions with works of the law. As far as being something we must do, yes faith and repentance is a work. If we have stolen something we need to give it back , etc, that's a work, or get baptised, that's a work. Or apologise, or say sorry, decide not to do something. Yeah they are all works, actions. Faith without works (actions) is dead, remember.
Act 14:22 strengthening the souls of the disciples and encouraging them to continue in the faith, saying, "We must endure many hardships to get into the kingdom of God."
Keep examining ourselves to see if we are in the faith, yeah that's a work:
2Co 13:5 Keep examining yourselves to see whether you are continuing in the faith.
Resist the devil and remain steadfast in the faith, yeah that's a work..
1Pe 5:9 Whom resist steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
Calvinism often confuses actions with works of the law. As far as being something we must do, yes faith and repentance is a work. If we have stolen something we need to give it back , etc, that's a work, or get baptised, that's a work. Or apologise, or say sorry, decide not to do something. Yeah they are all works, actions. Faith without works (actions) is dead, remember.
N
Faith and an enduring are no works for they are connected with salvation. It is called accepting a gift and you endure because of god. (no, call it TRUST!)
Good works proof that the renewal is real. God wants proof and probation. I see the huge problem that there are many fake renewals. You see no fruit. People did not do this:
For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 1. Thess 1,9
Maybe they stopped with doing some bad things they were used to do. But a lot people never changed inside. The message did never reach their heart. The were not satisfied by god for their relationship and their faith to him and in him was not alive. Someone who is really born again would not take the salvation for granted. He would like to know more from HIS word so he can lead a life that pleases god.
Calvinism (TULIP) is the other extreme. They have same biblical "proofs" (even more impressive) like those who claim that one is saved. Maybe Calvinism is more persuading because of its logic. But it is more dangerous. Its maybe even more dangerous than the doctrine of the final reconcilation cause it directly attacks the gospel and the character of god. However, see the bible as a whole. Don't overemphazise the souvereingty of god and don't overemphazise the accountability. (or better say free will). Those words are tainted by false doctrins and you always connect these thoughts with these scriptures.
Good works proof that the renewal is real. God wants proof and probation. I see the huge problem that there are many fake renewals. You see no fruit. People did not do this:
For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 1. Thess 1,9
Maybe they stopped with doing some bad things they were used to do. But a lot people never changed inside. The message did never reach their heart. The were not satisfied by god for their relationship and their faith to him and in him was not alive. Someone who is really born again would not take the salvation for granted. He would like to know more from HIS word so he can lead a life that pleases god.
Calvinism (TULIP) is the other extreme. They have same biblical "proofs" (even more impressive) like those who claim that one is saved. Maybe Calvinism is more persuading because of its logic. But it is more dangerous. Its maybe even more dangerous than the doctrine of the final reconcilation cause it directly attacks the gospel and the character of god. However, see the bible as a whole. Don't overemphazise the souvereingty of god and don't overemphazise the accountability. (or better say free will). Those words are tainted by false doctrins and you always connect these thoughts with these scriptures.
O
I think you are the first one to bring up ariminianism, regardless of your take on arminianism, OSAS is a false doctrine and is must more deadly than anything taught by arminians. James tell us that we are justified by are works and not by faith alone so to say opther wise is directly against what screipture dictates.
N
In regards to eternal security:
from a bible-believing, independent baptist:
Eternal Security verses: (there are heaps more also)
[FONT="]Joh 10:28[/FONT][FONT="] And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never ever perish, and not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Joh 10:29[/FONT][FONT="] My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Eph 2:8[/FONT][FONT="] For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, [/FONT]
[FONT="]Eph 2:9[/FONT][FONT="] not of works, lest anyone should boast. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Rom 8:37[/FONT][FONT="] But in all these things we more than conquer through Him who loved us. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Rom 8:38[/FONT][FONT="] For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, [/FONT]
[FONT="]Rom 8:39[/FONT][FONT="] nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. [/FONT]
(Eph 1:13-14) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
[FONT="]1Co 3:11[/FONT][FONT="] For any other foundation can no one lay than the one being laid, who is Jesus Christ. [/FONT]
[FONT="]1Co 3:12[/FONT][FONT="] And if anyone builds on this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble, [/FONT]
[FONT="]1Co 3:13[/FONT][FONT="] each one's work shall be revealed. For the Day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try each one's work as to what kind it is. [/FONT]
[FONT="]1Co 3:14[/FONT][FONT="] If anyone's work which he built remains, he shall receive a reward. [/FONT]
[FONT="]1Co 3:15[/FONT][FONT="] If anyone's work shall be burned up, he shall suffer loss. But he shall be saved, yet so as by fire. [/FONT]
[FONT="]2 Co 1:22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.[/FONT]
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
(Eph 2:8-10) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
(1Pe 3:18-19) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
(2Co 1:21-22) Now he which establisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
(Eph 4:29-30) Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
(Rom 8:37-39) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(1Pe 1:3-) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
(Rom 3:22-25) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Ro 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Colossians 2:11 &13-15
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
13
from a bible-believing, independent baptist:
Eternal Security verses: (there are heaps more also)
[FONT="]Joh 10:28[/FONT][FONT="] And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never ever perish, and not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Joh 10:29[/FONT][FONT="] My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Eph 2:8[/FONT][FONT="] For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, [/FONT]
[FONT="]Eph 2:9[/FONT][FONT="] not of works, lest anyone should boast. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Rom 8:37[/FONT][FONT="] But in all these things we more than conquer through Him who loved us. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Rom 8:38[/FONT][FONT="] For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, [/FONT]
[FONT="]Rom 8:39[/FONT][FONT="] nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. [/FONT]
(Eph 1:13-14) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
[FONT="]1Co 3:11[/FONT][FONT="] For any other foundation can no one lay than the one being laid, who is Jesus Christ. [/FONT]
[FONT="]1Co 3:12[/FONT][FONT="] And if anyone builds on this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble, [/FONT]
[FONT="]1Co 3:13[/FONT][FONT="] each one's work shall be revealed. For the Day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try each one's work as to what kind it is. [/FONT]
[FONT="]1Co 3:14[/FONT][FONT="] If anyone's work which he built remains, he shall receive a reward. [/FONT]
[FONT="]1Co 3:15[/FONT][FONT="] If anyone's work shall be burned up, he shall suffer loss. But he shall be saved, yet so as by fire. [/FONT]
[FONT="]2 Co 1:22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.[/FONT]
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
(Eph 2:8-10) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
(1Pe 3:18-19) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
(2Co 1:21-22) Now he which establisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
(Eph 4:29-30) Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
(Rom 8:37-39) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(1Pe 1:3-) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
(Rom 3:22-25) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Ro 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Colossians 2:11 &13-15
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
13
N
okay, if you could walk away from God and lose your salvation...
think about this analogy OnWings
If you rebel against your biological Father.. do they no longer become your Father?
God's connection to us is even greater than a biological Father.. because it is spiritual! It is not bound by death... cannot be severed!
Also.. if you could walk away from God.. and lose your salvation... that would be like your Dad giving you the gun to commit suicide with!
It is more loving to not have the option of the gun! A real Father would never let their child commit suicide!
Free will to ask Christ in to your life.. but after that.. God commits to you regardless..
NOW.. if you, straight after asking Christ in to your life.. go and just sin, willy-nilly.. well then you most likely didn't mean it when you asked Christ in..
but this isn't about works.. this is about genuineness..
If you had meant it when you asked Christ in.. He forgives! Past, present and future..
NOW if you decide to follow Christ out of your free will.. then you will have rewards in heaven...a better place.. if you decide not to... Jesus stays with you, as the Holy Spirit, having sealed you forever.. this is real, unconditional, committed love, regardless of works. You won't get rewards in heaven like the person who pursues God.. but you will have entrance.
This is real relationship with Jesus Christ! Not religion.. not works.. not a God who is dependent on our behaviour, but one who loves us no matter what.
like the other baptist fella.. I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian.. both a faulty theological theories... Calvinists never ask Christ into their life.. which flies in the face of scripture.. and Arminianists believe their salvation is not secure.. which flies in the face of God's promises in scripture.
think about this analogy OnWings
If you rebel against your biological Father.. do they no longer become your Father?
God's connection to us is even greater than a biological Father.. because it is spiritual! It is not bound by death... cannot be severed!
Also.. if you could walk away from God.. and lose your salvation... that would be like your Dad giving you the gun to commit suicide with!
It is more loving to not have the option of the gun! A real Father would never let their child commit suicide!
Free will to ask Christ in to your life.. but after that.. God commits to you regardless..
NOW.. if you, straight after asking Christ in to your life.. go and just sin, willy-nilly.. well then you most likely didn't mean it when you asked Christ in..
but this isn't about works.. this is about genuineness..
If you had meant it when you asked Christ in.. He forgives! Past, present and future..
NOW if you decide to follow Christ out of your free will.. then you will have rewards in heaven...a better place.. if you decide not to... Jesus stays with you, as the Holy Spirit, having sealed you forever.. this is real, unconditional, committed love, regardless of works. You won't get rewards in heaven like the person who pursues God.. but you will have entrance.
This is real relationship with Jesus Christ! Not religion.. not works.. not a God who is dependent on our behaviour, but one who loves us no matter what.
like the other baptist fella.. I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian.. both a faulty theological theories... Calvinists never ask Christ into their life.. which flies in the face of scripture.. and Arminianists believe their salvation is not secure.. which flies in the face of God's promises in scripture.
i mean, lets talk about Faith for a moment here. Um, Peter Denied Jesus three times, and yet, God used him, and turned Peter into a powerhouse for God. God knew we were sinners when He chose us in Christ, that is why God is so full of love and Mercy.
Why do you think God chose to use the twelve that He did. They were sinners just like us and failed at times just like us, but they were forgiven. God knew when He chose each one of them to follow Him , that they all had weaknesses, that no one would be perfect, sure in a perfect world, but God knew our world and our hearts were far from perfect, which is why He Sent His only begotten son, Redemtion! If God was not patient with me, well than where would i be, or any of us for that matter. sure hell was waiting, but Jesus had a much better plan.
By Grace we have been saved, not by works.
Even those who do not take there walk serious, or are not walking, lets remember God is still chasing after them, and loves them very much. This is the heart of a Father in whome we are redeemed.
Time and time agian, each one of us have failed God in one way or another, or sinned agianst Him, or are own bodies. Look at Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God. Gee, im glade im not in the place of God to judge anothers heart, who are we to say anyways, God knows all hearts.
And as for James faith and works going together, Jam 2:17Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jam 2:18But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your* works, and I will show you my faith by my* works.
you guys, these words are talking about For example, abraham. When he took his son to sacrifce him, his faith went together with his works.
Like Peter, or Thomas, so many of us have had doughts or deniel, or have fallen away as the Prodigal, yet the Father was there waiting with Open arms.
Why do you think God chose to use the twelve that He did. They were sinners just like us and failed at times just like us, but they were forgiven. God knew when He chose each one of them to follow Him , that they all had weaknesses, that no one would be perfect, sure in a perfect world, but God knew our world and our hearts were far from perfect, which is why He Sent His only begotten son, Redemtion! If God was not patient with me, well than where would i be, or any of us for that matter. sure hell was waiting, but Jesus had a much better plan.
By Grace we have been saved, not by works.
Even those who do not take there walk serious, or are not walking, lets remember God is still chasing after them, and loves them very much. This is the heart of a Father in whome we are redeemed.
Time and time agian, each one of us have failed God in one way or another, or sinned agianst Him, or are own bodies. Look at Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God. Gee, im glade im not in the place of God to judge anothers heart, who are we to say anyways, God knows all hearts.
And as for James faith and works going together, Jam 2:17Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
you guys, these words are talking about For example, abraham. When he took his son to sacrifce him, his faith went together with his works.
Like Peter, or Thomas, so many of us have had doughts or deniel, or have fallen away as the Prodigal, yet the Father was there waiting with Open arms.
Nazarite :
Sorry, didn't intend to correct anything you said, just emphasising the importance of our works, or what we do.
I believe faith is a gift , one day we found we believed, we didn't choose or decide how ourselves...(now I'm starting to sound like a Calvinist).. yet our decisions our "free will" directly influences or stifles our faith.. faith needs to be encouraged, Seeds need planting, watering, and God makes it grow. Faith without works is dead.. yes, faith needs to be seen to be tangible. Our communication with God, our love, our service.
Christ said he saw their faith, he didn't read minds.., e.g. when the Centurion asked Christ to heal his son only by saying the word, Christ said he had great faith. His great faith was shown by his actions. It's interesting that in the bible, whenever a person's faith is spoken of, it is associated with their actions.
As for the person who said "faith without works is dead" was taken out of context, look at the scripture again, and note the meanings of justification, and righteousness:
Jas 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed to him for righteousness, and he was called the friend of God."
Jas 2:24 You see then how a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
It clearly says justification is not by faith only. And yes justification means being right with God, a friend of God, righteous. Yet there's still people saying we are "saved by faith alone"?
Sorry, didn't intend to correct anything you said, just emphasising the importance of our works, or what we do.
I believe faith is a gift , one day we found we believed, we didn't choose or decide how ourselves...(now I'm starting to sound like a Calvinist).. yet our decisions our "free will" directly influences or stifles our faith.. faith needs to be encouraged, Seeds need planting, watering, and God makes it grow. Faith without works is dead.. yes, faith needs to be seen to be tangible. Our communication with God, our love, our service.
Christ said he saw their faith, he didn't read minds.., e.g. when the Centurion asked Christ to heal his son only by saying the word, Christ said he had great faith. His great faith was shown by his actions. It's interesting that in the bible, whenever a person's faith is spoken of, it is associated with their actions.
As for the person who said "faith without works is dead" was taken out of context, look at the scripture again, and note the meanings of justification, and righteousness:
Jas 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed to him for righteousness, and he was called the friend of God."
Jas 2:24 You see then how a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
It clearly says justification is not by faith only. And yes justification means being right with God, a friend of God, righteous. Yet there's still people saying we are "saved by faith alone"?
N
That's just it Merry, where's the incentive to repent if there is no penalty for sin? That is why there are so many unsaved people currently living in sin who sincerely believe they are saved.
Again, to discern the truth of this doctrine we must look at it's fruit. It obviously bears no good fruit on this side of eternity because the subject itself exists on the other side of eternity however, there is much visible bad fruit to be seen. Jesus clearly states in Matthew that we can identify false teachings by their fruit. Later on the book He also talks about falsehoods in which the elect shall be deceived.
It's obvious to me that those of you who do believe in this doctrine are very sincere about the Lord and your salvation. That was never on trial here however, if we look at the evidence, all of the scripture that you all have provided is nothing more than circumstantial. To make an accurate assessment, we must look at the fruit there of and the fruit of this doctrine is clearly bad.
Again, to discern the truth of this doctrine we must look at it's fruit. It obviously bears no good fruit on this side of eternity because the subject itself exists on the other side of eternity however, there is much visible bad fruit to be seen. Jesus clearly states in Matthew that we can identify false teachings by their fruit. Later on the book He also talks about falsehoods in which the elect shall be deceived.
It's obvious to me that those of you who do believe in this doctrine are very sincere about the Lord and your salvation. That was never on trial here however, if we look at the evidence, all of the scripture that you all have provided is nothing more than circumstantial. To make an accurate assessment, we must look at the fruit there of and the fruit of this doctrine is clearly bad.
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