SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS!
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You are showing that salvation has nothing to do with works, yet every time salvation is mentioned someone brings up works? It is agreed they are absolutely separate, the bible doesn't tie them together, yet most people talking of bible hook them together all the time. They do the same thing with grace, or faith. I have even seen people say that if you learn and know one of the truths of any of these things, you must cancel the learning of another truth, and being works requires something from us, and if it gets cancelled they are off the hook, it is works they decide it cancels. Makes no sense.
then why cannot you and the other supporting this idea prove that it is actually the meaning of scripture. All I read from those who supposedly support this view, is non substantive assertions, a lot of misrepresentation, or more likely, just total ignorance of what scripture means regarding our individual salvation.
I tried really hard for a really long time to be perfect before God.
I wasn't able to do it. So I tried a different tactic.
I asked Him to Help me.
And He Helped me more than I could think or ask, saving me to the uttermost.
Very interesting that when I quit my works and asked for His was when I recieved the Most from Him.
Romans 11:6-7
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
If we are saved by Grace then let's be saved by Grace. Let's learn what Grace is and what Grace does. After that you can come in with your pride and your will and tell us about your works. And how many of your good works it takes to earn salvation and obedience...
I wasn't able to do it. So I tried a different tactic.
I asked Him to Help me.
And He Helped me more than I could think or ask, saving me to the uttermost.
Very interesting that when I quit my works and asked for His was when I recieved the Most from Him.
Romans 11:6-7
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
If we are saved by Grace then let's be saved by Grace. Let's learn what Grace is and what Grace does. After that you can come in with your pride and your will and tell us about your works. And how many of your good works it takes to earn salvation and obedience...
I wish I had the time to invest in that enterprise. You do not treat the scriptures with the honesty of a born again believer and that bothers me greatly.
I leave you with Jesus own words. I AM the way the truth and the life no man cometh to the Father but by Me.
When Job enquired of God he got a response from God that was quite interesting. Job questioned why God was doing what God was doing and God answered Job with a question. Where were you Job when I God laid the foundations of the world if you can tell.
God Who inhabits eternity saves those who call upon His Son. What can this sin corrupted creation add to what God has done? How can the finite contribute anything of merit to the everlasting Eternal One?
I think your view of God is no better than the Muslim. God is neither capricious nor does God need us to do anything. God loves us and that is sufficient for Him to do as He pleases.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I leave you with Jesus own words. I AM the way the truth and the life no man cometh to the Father but by Me.
When Job enquired of God he got a response from God that was quite interesting. Job questioned why God was doing what God was doing and God answered Job with a question. Where were you Job when I God laid the foundations of the world if you can tell.
God Who inhabits eternity saves those who call upon His Son. What can this sin corrupted creation add to what God has done? How can the finite contribute anything of merit to the everlasting Eternal One?
I think your view of God is no better than the Muslim. God is neither capricious nor does God need us to do anything. God loves us and that is sufficient for Him to do as He pleases.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
H
I guess you are saying here that the thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" is lost because he did not have any commandment keeping to get him to paradise.
BTW, how much commandment keeping do you suggest we must have as a minimum to get eternal life?
According to the various legalists I've discussed this with, they claim one of the options below must be attained for us to enter into eternal life:
1: Perfect obedience to the law is required
OR
2: Some ambiguous, unspecified, minimum standard of obedience to the law, which varies depending on the individual.
Which of these do you preach?
BTW, how much commandment keeping do you suggest we must have as a minimum to get eternal life?
According to the various legalists I've discussed this with, they claim one of the options below must be attained for us to enter into eternal life:
1: Perfect obedience to the law is required
OR
2: Some ambiguous, unspecified, minimum standard of obedience to the law, which varies depending on the individual.
Which of these do you preach?
I respect your opinions but that is all they are. You have missed the whole purpose of why you were even created, and the saved from death. God is not in need of anything, but He created us for a purpose that is based on a mutual convenantal relationship. We are not some object to manipulate, or an object of God's glory in creating us, but we were created to work with Him and in doing His will, we glorify Him.
Your very question of what can we merit otthe everlasting Eternal One misses the whole point of our being created and God giving us His revelation to reveal to us what He expects from us.
Your very question of what can we merit otthe everlasting Eternal One misses the whole point of our being created and God giving us His revelation to reveal to us what He expects from us.
H
I looked it up and "sanctify" means to make holy.
And this is confirmed in Heb 10:10.
By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
There we have it. It was Christ's sacrifice that sanctified us, made us holy.
And this is contrary to the legalists doctrine that suggests that Christ's sacrifice was not good enough and that perfect obedience to the law is necessary to finish off what Christ's sacrifice failed to do.
I can see why Heb 10:26-29 speaks in such negative terms about those who after having known what they have in Christ turn back to the law, thus rejecting Christ's sacrifice.
Heb 10:26-29
For if we sin willfully (this is when one turns back to the law, Gal 2:18) after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he ( the legalists) be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
I suspect many legalists (being like Saul, knowing scripture but being a persecutor of the church) never knew the truth of the gospel to begin with. Hence they may still be able to repent and receive Christ.
And this is confirmed in Heb 10:10.
By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
There we have it. It was Christ's sacrifice that sanctified us, made us holy.
And this is contrary to the legalists doctrine that suggests that Christ's sacrifice was not good enough and that perfect obedience to the law is necessary to finish off what Christ's sacrifice failed to do.
I can see why Heb 10:26-29 speaks in such negative terms about those who after having known what they have in Christ turn back to the law, thus rejecting Christ's sacrifice.
Heb 10:26-29
For if we sin willfully (this is when one turns back to the law, Gal 2:18) after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he ( the legalists) be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
I suspect many legalists (being like Saul, knowing scripture but being a persecutor of the church) never knew the truth of the gospel to begin with. Hence they may still be able to repent and receive Christ.
E
2 john 1: 8 is talking about a reward.
Salvation is not a reward, it is a gift. So to take 2 john 1: 8 as talking about losing salvation would be false.
The next few verses are talking about decievers, Men who never were saved.
so not sure what your talking about
No.
It is a dangerous teaching to make something God says is free, and say it must be earned.
Your faith is in your self and your ability to do those things to earn it, And not the work of Christ. It was not free. is was paid in full by CHrist. to say otherwise is to call God a liar.
NO ONE who truly repents would ever think this. Not sure why you think they would
Anyone who does, has never been saved, they have turned the grace of God to licentious, whose end has been foreordained (see Jude)
I did. The care was free. what one did with the car depends on works.
Your example did not prove your point, your trying to mix justification with sanctification. they are two different things.
The God is a liar. plain and simple.
He chose based on the gospel. Whoever believes in him will be saved, And he will NOT put to shame.
The gift is free.
Just because someone may reject his gift, does nto mean one will lose it.
Again, You make God give something KNOWING he will have to take it back. That is a disgrace to say this, And an outright insult to God
Salvation is not a reward, it is a gift. So to take 2 john 1: 8 as talking about losing salvation would be false.
The next few verses are talking about decievers, Men who never were saved.
so not sure what your talking about
No.
It is a dangerous teaching to make something God says is free, and say it must be earned.
Your faith is in your self and your ability to do those things to earn it, And not the work of Christ. It was not free. is was paid in full by CHrist. to say otherwise is to call God a liar.
NO ONE who truly repents would ever think this. Not sure why you think they would
Anyone who does, has never been saved, they have turned the grace of God to licentious, whose end has been foreordained (see Jude)
I did. The care was free. what one did with the car depends on works.
Your example did not prove your point, your trying to mix justification with sanctification. they are two different things.
The God is a liar. plain and simple.
He chose based on the gospel. Whoever believes in him will be saved, And he will NOT put to shame.
The gift is free.
Just because someone may reject his gift, does nto mean one will lose it.
Again, You make God give something KNOWING he will have to take it back. That is a disgrace to say this, And an outright insult to God
I am reading through all these bible truths that is supposed to always to point to works as absolutely nothing. They give forgiveness as a free gift as a reason. Does the free gift scriptures relate to any don't do any work scripture? There are no limits to grace, and how does that relate to scriptures about walking in the way of Christ? One says that we are told to be perfect even though we can't be, it is a logical reason for the no work rule they give. And there is actually arguments about it.
What about just accepting scripture? Scripture about the place of work in our Christian walk is scripture, too. But I am ignored, the idea!! Talking of what scripture says!!!!
What about just accepting scripture? Scripture about the place of work in our Christian walk is scripture, too. But I am ignored, the idea!! Talking of what scripture says!!!!