SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS!

[Alligator]

That is incorrect. There are mainly two Gospels in the New Testament. There is the Gospel of the Grace of God (Death, Burial, and Resurrection) See Acts 20:24 and 1 Cor. 15:1-6.


Then there is the Everlasting Gospel (the Gospel of the Kingdom) see Matthew 24:14 and Revelation 14:6Well Alli, the blood of animals indeed could not take away sin, they could only cover them. Only the precious blood of the Lord Jesus Christ can wash and take away sin.


Our salvation is not conditional today. The context of 1 John 1:7-9 is fellowship. Not salvation.

No, there is one Gospel, which means "good news". The good news of God sending His only son to die for our sins.

No, our salvation is conditional. Read Ist John again. It says IF we walk in the light, the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. The Implication is if we don't walk in the light, His blood will not cleanse us.

 

[Angela53510]

"To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law." 1 Cor 9:20-21

Reading this in my devotions tonight, and seeing how Paul considered himself NOT under the Jewish laws, but rather under the law of Christ, it occurred to me, that we might be better off using different terminology in this

Salvation - comes through grace only

So where does the law or works come in? Instead of works, we need to consider the term "ethics" as being more appropriate.

In other words, following Christ means living ethically.

Jesus employed three characteristic motifs in his ethical teaching.

1. Moral living means God is reigning as a king and his people's duty as citizens is to obey the rules of his kingdom. (see Matt 5: 3,10, 19-20; 6:10, 33; 13:37-43,47-50;18:23-35;21:31-32)

2. Moral living is described in terms of the obligations, loyalties, and privileges of children in a family headed by God as a loving Father. (Matt 5:9,16 43-48; 6:1-4; 12:50; 23:9; Mark 3:35; John 12:36

3. Jesus described moral living in terms of discipleship, following, imitating, and obeying him as a beloved teacher, mentor and role model. (See Matt 10:24-25;16:24; Mark 10:43-45; Luke 6:40; John 13:15-17, 14:15, 21, 23-24; 15:10, 12)

In addition, Jesus commissioned his followers in Matt 28:20 to" "observe all that I have commanded you." So Jesus' life is a pattern for us to imitate.

Finally, John notes: "whoever abides in him ought to walk in the same way he walked." 1 John 2:6

Thus salvation is always a work of grace, which we cannot earn by works. But morally and ethically, as well as personally, we obey the law of Christ. (Please remember this is not the Old Testament laws.)

This is settles the debate of eternal security versus being saved by grace and works. Those who correctly believe in eternal security are completely right! No one is saved by works, but Jesus does expect us to live ethically, according to his Word.

 

[JaumeJ]

According to what may be understood from the parable of the talents, once we receive the gift of faith and grace, we are given freedom in our works. Although they are not a specific commandment from the parable, we are told to not rest on the laurels of having received the gifts. No, we are to act upon these gifts in genuine disire, and I believe thanksgiving, otherwise we are deemed lazy and evil as servants. I like this parable, for it is simple and to to the point.

Mat 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

Mat 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

Mat 25:16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

Mat 25:17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.

Mat 25:18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

Mat 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

Mat 25:20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Mat 25:22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

Mat 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Mat 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

Mat 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

"To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law." 1 Cor 9:20-21

Reading this in my devotions tonight, and seeing how Paul considered himself NOT under the Jewish laws, but rather under the law of Christ, it occurred to me, that we might be better off using different terminology in this

Salvation - comes through grace only

So where does the law or works come in? Instead of works, we need to consider the term "ethics" as being more appropriate.

In other words, following Christ means living ethically.

Jesus employed three characteristic motifs in his ethical teaching.

1. Moral living means God is reigning as a king and his people's duty as citizens is to obey the rules of his kingdom. (see Matt 5: 3,10, 19-20; 6:10, 33; 13:37-43,47-50;18:23-35;21:31-32)

2. Moral living is described in terms of the obligations, loyalties, and privileges of children in a family headed by God as a loving Father. (Matt 5:9,16 43-48; 6:1-4; 12:50; 23:9; Mark 3:35; John 12:36

3. Jesus described moral living in terms of discipleship, following, imitating, and obeying him as a beloved teacher, mentor and role model. (See Matt 10:24-25;16:24; Mark 10:43-45; Luke 6:40; John 13:15-17, 14:15, 21, 23-24; 15:10, 12)

In addition, Jesus commissioned his followers in Matt 28:20 to" "observe all that I have commanded you." So Jesus' life is a pattern for us to imitate.

Finally, John notes: "whoever abides in him ought to walk in the same way he walked." 1 John 2:6

Thus salvation is always a work of grace, which we cannot earn by works. But morally and ethically, as well as personally, we obey the law of Christ. (Please remember this is not the Old Testament laws.)

This is settles the debate of eternal security versus being saved by grace and works. Those who correctly believe in eternal security are completely right! No one is saved by works, but Jesus does expect us to live ethically, according to his Word.

 

[Vaudeville]

No, there is one Gospel, which means "good news". The good news of God sending His only son to die for our sins.

No, our salvation is conditional. Read Ist John again. It says IF we walk in the light, the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. The Implication is if we don't walk in the light, His blood will not cleanse us.

the implication? why don't you read the whole (short) chapter. it says if we confess our sins we are cleansed.

 

[Vaudeville]

I am talking about Hebrews 10, and it is not talking about at the time of Jacob's trouble. He is speaking to those at that time that have accepted Jesus but then through willful sin turn away from Him. It is an example for us to follow by as well. Even though as you say the phrase fall away only appears twice. There are multiple scriptures that talk about those who fall away using other wording, but meaning the same.

no it isn't. the whole book is convincing the hebrews christ is the messiah and that the temple and all the mosiac law were pointing to him. it is warning them, that if they fall away from grace (christ) and return to the temple and tablets of stone, there is no more sacrifice for sins. and that they have trampled the son of God underfoot, putting him to an open shame.

i see that on this forum. it's popular, and tolerated. but to each their own.

 

[Vaudeville]

could someone use scripture and post a list of the good works christians are to perform, particularly the ones that will get them into heaven?

i do believe christians do good works. some few, some more and some many. but for those who claim your good works (presumably after justification) are added to Christ's work in securing your final salvation, please list them here:

 

[JaumeJ]

Salvation is a gift, there is no work to gain salvation aside from yielding to the Sacrifice of the Lamb of Yahweh, however faith will die without works. Faith without works is self-delusion.

The main problem with these posts on salvation and works is the readers and posters confusing faith with salvation. Think on it, that is meditate on it.

 

[Vaudeville]

could someone use scripture and post a list of the good works christians are to perform, particularly the ones that will get them into heaven?

i do believe christians do good works. some few, some more and some many.

but for those who claim your good works (presumably after justification) are added to Christ's work in securing your final salvation, please list them here:

not your opinions. from scripture (the good works christians will do are in scripture).
thank you.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

not your opinions. from scripture (the good works christians will do are in scripture).
thank you.

Sure, read this:

[h=3]Matthew 5:39-48[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]39 [/SUP]But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
[SUP]42 [/SUP]Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
[SUP]43 [/SUP]Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
[SUP]45 [/SUP]That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
[SUP]47 [/SUP]And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
[SUP]48 [/SUP]Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Just an example from Jesus of good works we are to do.

Heres another one:

Luke 10:30-37
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
[SUP]34 [/SUP]And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
[SUP]37 [/SUP]And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

not your opinions. from scripture (the good works christians will do are in scripture).
thank you.

Oh wait, you meant that good works are part of securing salvation? oh, that means I need to show you these verses:

[h=3]Ephesians 2:8-9[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.


We are saved through faith by grace. A specific amount of works, {say 100 pounds} does not get us into heaven.

James 2:14-17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
[h=3][/h][h=3]James 2:18[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

[h=3]James 2:26[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[h=3]2 Timothy 3:17[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.


Telling us that Good works = our faith.



Titus 1:16
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

[h=3]James 4:17[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

1 John 3:8
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.



Theres a difference between Good works and Bad works


[h=3]Matthew 25:31-46[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
[SUP]33 [/SUP]And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[SUP]35 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
[SUP]39 [/SUP]Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[SUP]42 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
[SUP]43 [/SUP]I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

[h=3]Matthew 7:21-23[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Punishments for bad works, also to prove they were real Christians:

[h=3]Mark 16:16-18[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
[SUP]18 [/SUP]They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

 

[Vaudeville]

Sure, read this:

Matthew 5:39-48

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]39 [/SUP]But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
[SUP]42 [/SUP]Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
[SUP]43 [/SUP]Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
[SUP]45 [/SUP]That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
[SUP]47 [/SUP]And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
[SUP]48 [/SUP]Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Just an example from Jesus of good works we are to do.

Heres another one:

Luke 10:30-37
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
[SUP]34 [/SUP]And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
[SUP]37 [/SUP]And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

all things someone who loves will do, yes? compassion, even for the most marginalized. these are the DO commandments (we hardly need to be commanded to DO them if the Spirit has poured the love of the Father into our hearts, if we have learned of the Father, been taught by God and come to Christ).

there are many others in scripture, old testament as well as new.
can we continue with that list? thanks!

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

all things someone who loves will do, yes? compassion, even for the most marginalized. these are the DO commandments (we hardly need to be commanded to DO them if the Spirit has poured the love of the Father into our hearts, if we have learned of the the Father and come to Christ).

there are many others in scripture, old testament as well as new.
can we continue with that list? thanks!

If you read the second one, he asks "Which now of these thee, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among these?" <-- basically if you obey the commandment to love thy neighbour as thyself, you will do good deeds or atleast treat people well. So all good deeds fall under that commandment to simplify things.

 

[Vaudeville]

If you read the second one, he asks "Which now of these thee, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among these?" <-- basically if you obey the commandment to love thy neighbour as thyself, you will do good deeds or atleast treat people well. So all good deeds fall under that commandment to simplify things.

i agree. now with God indwelling his people in the new heart, do we need a mountain rumbling and thundering and lightening? or do we see the world the people in it differently now?

the "dirty" ______ (fill in peoples favorite hated 'other', you know, THAT person, THOSE people) is no longer to be avoided because he is 'unclean' or because i am better or too busy. he is to be pitied and cared for with dignity.
without fanfare. it's reasonable service.

 

[Vaudeville]

Oh wait, you meant that good works are part of securing salvation?

no, i didn't mean that.
all your examples are of people who were not saved.

 

[Vaudeville]

James 4:17

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

1 John 3:8
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

anyone who has known to do good and always without fail done it, please say so.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

no, i didn't mean that.
all your examples are of people who were not saved.

No, thats not what I was saying. In my quotes it CLEARLY states how faith is dead without works. Works are a testament to your faith, re-read the Bible quotes.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

anyone who has known to do good and always without fail done it, please say so.

Jesus.

As for myself, I try my best to help every homeless person, etc. but sometimes I fail. We are supposed to help people. If you truely love everyone as yourself, you will do it. That is why those quotes are there, thats all. Remember, we all fall short to the glory of God. There is trying your best and failing, and then not trying at all and failing.

 

[Vaudeville]

No, thats not what I was saying. In my quotes it CLEARLY states how faith is dead without works. Works are a testament to your faith, re-read the Bible quotes.

a testament to whom? God?
God doesn't need you to place a cloak over him on a cold night. your neighbour needs that. clearly if you claim christ's name and never show any sign of having a new heart (which treats people better than the stony heart did) i doubt you're saved. however, i would have to follow you around and watch everything you do to know. even then i wouldn't know, for certain.

but now i'm back to asking you to provide a list of all the good works and how many you will need added to Christ's sacrifice to gain you entry into heaven.

don't use passages describing people who Christ never knew, or goats at the judgment. they're not judged on what they didn't do for christians in prison, etc. they're judged because they are goats. their works didn't make them goats, their unbelief did.

 

[Vaudeville]

Jesus.

As for myself, I try my best to help every homeless person, etc. but sometimes I fail. We are supposed to help people. If you truely love everyone as yourself, you will do it. That is why those quotes are there, thats all. Remember, we all fall short to the glory of God. There is trying your best and failing, and then not trying at all and failing.

okay. but how many of your good works will weigh in the balance on judgment day? do you do them to be saved? how many and of what quality should they be?

by the way, i don't actually believe you do your best to help every homeless person. take another look at your claim. you know it's not true. even if it were (it's not), what about all those other good works you aren't doing, even though you know you should.

 

[mailmandan]

So, how many good works will it take today to keep your salvation secure?

I'm yet to hear anyone give an exact answer to this question. While on the surface the idea of requiring works in addition to faith in order to receive salvation may sound noble, in essence it disqualifies faith. Here's why: We receive eternal salvation by placing our faith (our trust, our reliance) exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation. To say that we must add works to the equation in order to help Jesus save us is to say that Christ’s finished work of redemption is insufficient to secure our salvation, and what we really mean then, is that we lack the trust and reliance that He alone can eternally save us. This lack of trusting exclusively in Christ for salvation is self reliance, works salvation, no salvation at all.