Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[Cassian]

Here again you are playing fast and loose with the scripture. Paul is not conditioning salvation on continuing in the faith. Paul is urging that these believe the gospel and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel. Paul is talking of discipleship and not trusting in anything short of the gospel. Then as now religious men wanted to impress works upon the gospel of grace. Salvation is not about religion or works but about Christ the Savior.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You still have not presented anything that shows that "faith only" is actually a scriptural teaching. You make assertions, but have no text that removes the works of faith, the law of love, or obedience to Christ. To be of faith, means to be with love, and obedience. It is how one increases their faith, God imparts more righteousness to us when we do righteous things, I John 3:7.
What you have done most consistantly is mischaracterize what scripture actually teaches and what those that are speaking against this false notion of "faith only" are stating.
The very words, not be be moved from the Gospel, is diametrically opposing your view.
Moving from the Gospel is moving outside of Christ. Can one be saved outside of Christ?

 

[iamsoandso]

Thank you that whip felt good friend, felt real good to be reminded that by Christ's stripes I am healed Love you deeper than you know, Thanking Father that Father will never let me go, and no one can snatch me out of his hand, and knowing that any weapon formed against will never prosper
Thank you for all these reminders of not only I am in Christ by belief, yet all that do believe God reveals to them as well in due time if they are still on their way to the whole truth that is as either you are or you are not, God knoweth and I am at rest in that. thanking God for God's blessings to you to show you how deep his love is for you

Ephesians 3:16-18

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]that he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; [SUP]17 [/SUP]that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, [SUP]18 [/SUP]may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

eventually "i will put my laws in your hearts and write my,,,ect.ect." will connect,,,,,untill then the carnal world will look at the books of the new testament as if arranging them with an magnifying glass,and another law that cannot save. "the laws of Moses 2,the second part,or something to be touched as if carnal",,,,,,oooopp's,,,,,,what a mistake for them to lay aside an carnal law that possessed not the ability to obtain grace,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"ONLY TO BUILD ANOTHER WITH THE NEW",,,,,,,

 

[homwardbound]

So you agree that one cannot possibly have salvation with no work at all.

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


Romans 3:22 even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference
Romans 3:25 whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[homwardbound]

There are two types of work, one that is righteous works, and the other the works of merit.

Whatever, okay then God knows you friend and me as well, I personally am seeking toi be careful not to mock God and appreciate the forgiveness given to all, while none of us deserve it, before or after we are saved by Father's Mercy to all
Do you agree with this?

 

[Cassian]

Sorry you still do not know the whole truth that sets one free and relieves one from the stress it seems you are in, been there done that had lost ny first love and needed to return and thanking God to show me truth over error and has set me free in him
Friend are you free or do you still have something in your way that besets you, and makes you strife harder to be one with God? When through God by Son if one believes are made one with Father
Believe go to to BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 100 versions and 50 languages. and put in the search beleive and see it is by belief that we are saved by the works of God through Son and we then are responders to this, and God works through us as God did through Son, we are just a vessel, was not Son that as well, just God's vessel? He did nothing unless called said or did nothing unless God said, completely dependent on Father, not ever on self to do the works God called him to do
You might see it and you might not, God will reveal this to you if God decides to, God's will be done not mine, standing grounded and settled in the Faith

A lot of verbiage signifying nothing, but not one shred of evidence to show you point from scripture. Not one text that says God does the work for man in our relationship with Him. God loves our enemies for us, God is obedient to Himself for us?
Your view is vacuous and you have no scriptural support for it. Two threads and not a shred of evidence either scriptural or historical that Christianity ever held this view as a meaning of scripture.
Actually 500 years already, it has been proven to be false, even false within the sola scriptura milieu.

 

[homwardbound]

Knock them strawmen over, over and over.

okay, thank you and just love the same as God does, God just love you still

 

[homwardbound]

I don't have a secret decoder ring to decipher your color coding... if you have some interpretation of these scriptures, say so.



Jesus or God will not obey the Gospel for you, if that is what you believe you have been deceived.

God did fro not only me yet for the whole world, and no secret color code in plain simple English or should I highlight it below?
[h=3]Hebrews 7:11-12[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? [SUP]12 [/SUP]For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

 

[LT]

i feel that it must be said, yet again, that faith is always expressed through works, but the works are not what saves.

If a man is starving on the verge of death, and he is given a plate of food, the man has FAITH that the food can save him from starvation. Will the man continue repeating "I know this food can save me. I trust this food can save me," or does he immediately begin eating?

If we have faith, then we are saved. If we have faith, then we will trust that God is real and active in the world, and that His Word tells us what we should be doing.
If we have faith, then we will simply do what God asks of us, because we have faith that His ways are the right ways, and that our ways are not.


Works always follow faith, but works are a love offering, and the faith in Christ is the guilt offering.

 

[Cassian]

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


Romans 3:22 even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference
Romans 3:25 whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Once again, just a huge misunderstanding. These texts are all acknowledging that one is justified by faith. But scripture also shows that one is not saved by being justified. It is entrance into Christ, and it is IN Christ that we are being saved as per our personal relationship with Him. That salvation is very conditional.
But yet, not a shred of evidence to show that our personal salvation is NOT conditional.

 

[LT]

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."
Rom. 3:24, "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"
Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."
Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. [SUP]29[/SUP]Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, [SUP]30[/SUP]since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,"
Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Rom. 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."
Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
Rom. 9:33, "just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; [SUP]10[/SUP]for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? [SUP]6[/SUP]Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."
Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
Gal. 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
Eph. 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."
Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."
Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
1 Tim. 1:16, "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."


this is quite a large list, but not even a complete one.
Any one of those verses explains salvation through faith alone perfectly.

pick any one, and study it for yourself in context, and may the Holy Spirit guide you in your reading.

 

[Cassian]

i feel that it must be said, yet again, that faith is always expressed through works, but the works are not what saves.

If a man is starving on the verge of death, and he is given a plate of food, the man has FAITH that the food can save him from starvation. Will the man continue repeating "I know this food can save me. I trust this food can save me," or does he immediately begin eating?

If we have faith, then we are saved. If we have faith, then we will trust that God is real and active in the world, and that His Word tells us what we should be doing.
If we have faith, then we will simply do what God asks of us, because we have faith that His ways are the right ways, and that our ways are not.


Works always follow faith, but works are a love offering, and the faith in Christ is the guilt offering.

Excellent analogy. I don't think it will help. If they don't understand scripture, I would assume they will not understand the analogy. There have been several others in the two threads addressing this issue.

 

[LT]

These are underlined to show how we are saved by faith in Christ alone, even if we are full of sin, and have not followed the Word of God.

After salvation, works show the faith.
There is no way to lose salvation, however there are ways of proving that you never truly had any faith (by continuing to wallow in sin).



Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. [SUP]29[/SUP]Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,[SUP] 30[/SUP]since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
Gal. 3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? [SUP]6[/SUP]Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. [SUP]9[/SUP]Not by works, lest any man should boast."
Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

well yes i know that now. you have everything from hearing to breathing as works. not works of righteousness though. unless you challenge paul.

so SeaBass is saved by his works. HE HEARD! thats impressive. even more impressive is that while dead in trespasses and sins he cooperated with Christ in his salvation by doing good works. what is this religion called. Romanish maybe.

lol, so true.

How can one who is dead in sin do any work that would be recieved by God as righteous? For they could ONLY be of a carnal value, based on recieving something for those works. AKA works of merit.

Only a true born again, spirit filled person of God can do a work of righteousness.

 

[homwardbound]

Now you are really trying to stretch, cherry picking. Everyone of these texts has to do with the Work of Christ, the reconciling of the world, the actual gift of salvation from death and sin.

It is this work that makes the purpose of God in creating man possible again, that is joining in a mutual relationship.

If perfection came by the Law any law that you want to promote then Christ went to the cross for nothing. If anyone can be perfect in and of themselves and no one can, the only one that did is Chirst.
Christ is perfect right, do you agree with this?
So since Christ is perfect, there was never a need for him to go to the death and then to resurrection is there?
So either he was and is God in the flesh and took upon the sin of the world reconciling us to be made perfect in order to get new life in the Spirit of Father or he is a lunatic, and just did it to laugh at us

Under Law friend any Law to our flesh, viewing it from that angle we can't ever be perfect, as Christ said before he went to the cross for us, he said if you even lust after a woman, you have already committed Adultery in your own heart. So if you have done this you are to have gouged out your eye, better for part of you to enter Heaven than all of you to enter Hell,.
The same goes for if your hand steals, cut it off, and then to the rich man in Matt 19, who walked away sad, who had obeyed the Law from Birth on and was wealthy, He asked what more must he do to be perfect and go to Heaven and Christ said give up all his worldly possessions. This man walked away sad, and as the disciples watched this, perplexed over it all.
Then asked Christ how is it possible then to ever enter Heaven we are seeing under the Law we can't make unless we go as a Torso, all our Body parts cut off
Not very nice is this. The annihilation they saw being under having to be perfect and can't

So Christ straight out with man stated it is impossible, and with God all things are possible.
What do you think he was talking about?
Going to the cross and taking away the sin of the world in Father's eyes? To do what? Give us new life in Spirit or flesh?
I think you know the answer, don't you in your being you know the truth it is up to you to believe or not, and that is the only thing Christ never died for. To believe or not to believe is the final Choice to salvation and the works are the works of God's love and Mercy to all

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The experience you must have is the experience of the Holy Spirit drawing you to Christ. No man comes to Christ of his or her own accord. Only when God draws through the convicting power of the Holy Spirit acting through the word of God can a person see their need to be saved and their inability to save themselves. John 16:7-13, John 14:6

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I think Cassian is proof of this. He was drawn by his church. And thus is blinded to the spirit.

 

[homwardbound]

You are really picking again. Christ FREED all men from the bondage to death and sin. But that is NOT what this discussion is about.
It is about being in error and your view has been in error since the Reformation started. In 500 years it has not been supported anywhere, was never a belief prior to the Reformation. You will remain in your swirl of confusion.

Tel, me this can any flesh ever please God other than Christ's? before or after the cross, doesn't it say no flesh in Father's sight will ever please Father?
So go on with your bad self, praying you come to the end of the energy of your own flesh that you are so well working in and thinking God is pleased by your dung

[h=3]Philippians 3:1-11[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

3 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: [SUP]5 [/SUP]circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; [SUP]6 [/SUP]concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. [SUP]7 [/SUP]But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, [SUP]9 [/SUP]and be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: [SUP]10 [/SUP]that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; [SUP]11 [/SUP]if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

 

[iamsoandso]

i feel that it must be said, yet again, that faith is always expressed through works, but the works are not what saves.

If a man is starving on the verge of death, and he is given a plate of food, the man has FAITH that the food can save him from starvation. Will the man continue repeating "I know this food can save me. I trust this food can save me," or does he immediately begin eating?

If we have faith, then we are saved. If we have faith, then we will trust that God is real and active in the world, and that His Word tells us what we should be doing.
If we have faith, then we will simply do what God asks of us, because we have faith that His ways are the right ways, and that our ways are not.


Works always follow faith, but works are a love offering, and the faith in Christ is the guilt offering.

One is holding his hands out and begging for salvation,,,he looks at his own hands cupped together and see's them (empty),,he begs for god to fill them,,,,,,,the other has his hands cupped together,,,and he see's salvation overflowing out of them,,,it is impossible for him to beg for the very thing his hands are in possession of,his hands are full of grace,,,they are full of salvation,,,,he does not beg for them to be filled,,,,,he gives thanks for the grace they are filled with,,,

one mans sermon is the "road to salvation,the several things to do to be saved",,,this is the road to death,,,,yet there is the other sermon,that is when we were set up upon our feet and the mud was washed off our face,by the Messiah set upon an Cross,,,,,,what an goofy man i am,,,i am ugly,i am weak,,i am not clever,i could not muster up the strength to figure out how to save mine own self,let alone you,,,,,,yet the gift of god that i have in my possession is the Gospel of Christ i preach to you,,,i cried for a while,and then i saw it,,i stopped begging for the thing i denied he gave,,,,,,then i stood up and screamed,,,,,,"oh!,,my god thank you!!",,,,,,,and i began to preach this Gospel,,,,,,,,,

 

[SeaBass]

That is what is being said one has to have works to be saved, which is false, for if the first chosen could have obeyed perfectly then there would have never been a need for a perfect Savior Christ

Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

By the first Chosen shown by Father they could not ever be perfect and had to year after year have their sins transferred from them to a perfect animal sacrifice where there always had to be shedding of Blood for this forgiveness, year after year mind you

And Christ is the perfect lamb sacrificed for all eternity, the last sacrifice for any and all forgiveness in the sight of Father it is finished and by this death of Christ we are forever cleansed, not to be taken for granted and just sin because we are forgiven. Rather in appreciation to Father by Son we are forgiven and learn from Father how to walk in dependence on Father and not self
And thus we will walk as Son walked, by Faith in the finished work of Christ at the cross, never in self effort works anymore once we see the works to be saved are finished and we walk in the light as he is in the light by trust to Father that father does just love us this deep to go to the death for us even as we are and were unbelievers.
That is love beyond measure you think?

Again, VCO posted "NO David, genuine FAITH produces good works, psuedo Faith does not produce good works, is all they are saying."


Do you agree with this statement VCO made?

 

[kennethcadwell]

The debate here is some missing the meaning. Salvation is a free gift given to one who believes and confesses Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. From there though comes the second half of the equation and that is you have salvation, but now can you cause yourself to lose it ? The Lord will not take it away, but can you take it away from yourself ?

Can You Lose Your Salvation?

Go here and read more scripture and you will find the answer to this. By our Lord Jesus words, and being backed up by scriptures from Paul, and James I believe the answer is yes, but form your own opinion. Read first though before just believing what you have been taught so far.

Final question for thought to help one understand: Out of all the books why is the ones we know the only ones chosen to finalize the bible ?

 

[SeaBass]

How can one not do the good works of God in response to God when one sees what God has done, the same as how could one refuse water Baptism after the salvation given to them in response in thanksgiving and praise. works are there, just not forced there is a difference at least to me

So you you are saying wroks are necessary to be saved? Can a Christian not do good works and still be saved?