SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS!
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
then you should be able to prove me incorrect, yet all I see are meaningless assertions with not a shred of evidence. Which is typical of your responses.
Obviously you do not understand what it means in scripture, otherwise you would not be asking the question. Just review all the texts I posted earlier and you will be enlightened.
It is amazing that the Incarnation resulted in the Gift of salvation, yet you don't even know what that Gift actually is.
then you have just acknowledged that Christ saved all men from death and sin. It was the penalty of death, the condemnation of death under which all men lived. And yes, He gave life to all men. An eternal existance that was lost through Adam.
All men were saved from death and sin. All men will be raised on the last day because Christ assumed our mortal human nature and raised it to life. John 6:39 states that none will be lost.
You are correct, but it is becoming more visible what you don't understand about scripture as it has always meant from the beginning.
Really. It is an equation. all die through Adam, all have life through Christ. How can you even believe in a hell or heaven? You just negated the possibility. I Cor 15:17 states quite clearly, unless ALL the dead are raised, ones faith is in vain. It is in vain because Christ would have failed in His mission to defeat death.
self incriminating. I am explaining the Gospel as it has always been understood, where man has never made a change to it. You are the one teaching some unknown gospel of some man, maybe even your own.
It is now that Christ redeemed the world from the bondage to death and sin. Now man is going to be held responsible for his sin. Man is no longer under the condemnation of death through Adam. The gift was life so that all could be given the opportunity to choose or reject Christ. One will enjoy eternal life with Christ for those that believe.
Every has the gift. Part of it is to be used in this life, the Sacrifice for sin, the other, the primary work of Christ is that He gave life to the world, so that man and the world will have an eternal existence. The Gift you are offered to recieve is the one to be reunited with God in a personal relationship.
What can I say, you have not given any evidence that I am incorrect as yet. You make assertions, but no text to overturn what I cited or what I explained.
yes, death was the condemnation of Adam's sin. It is the death (mortality) that we inherit by birth, Rom 5:12. And yes, Christ is the LIFE. The gift, Rom 5:14, 18 which is given to ALL MEN. Same as in I Cor 15:22. and why every single human being will be raised from the dead in the last day, John 6:39, Rev 20:13.
YOu are absolutely Correct. You will be raised, as every single human being will be raised in the last day to an eternal existence.
The question we are dealing with is wha side of eternity will you be on, with Christ or apart from HIM?
No, we have all men alive with an eternal existance, but the question that needs to be decided is where each will spend eternity, with Christ or apart from HIm. That is why Christ saved the world, so that the purpose of why man was created could be finished, fulfilled.
Well I will await your scripture that overturns the Incarnation of Christ and what it accomplished. it has not only been held from the beginning, but it is also, along with the Trintity, one of the hallmarks of Christianity.
And you have no understanding of it.
that is quite unscriptural, since it is one of the basic tenents of belief. Belief in it is what justifies a person to Christ by faith.
God created them to be eternal. But as you state in #2 Adam lost eternal existance for all men, even for the world. The world was condemned to decay, corruption and death along with Adam.
correct, actually permanent non-existance since it was dust to dust, Gen 3:19.
that depends on context. ONly those that believe are offered eternal life with Christ.
quite the contrary. NOt just life but immortal life and incorruptibility. I Cor 15:53.
Life with Christ. Context in scripture will always point to either all men haveing life, eternal existance, or life with Christ through faith.
I think I have a lot better grasp than you do as it made quite clear in this post. You have a very long way to go on this subject.
From scripture. But we are not speaking about Satan. Satan was also not among those saved through Christ's Incarnation either.
You are correct. But it is death, our mortal nature that causes us to sin so easily. The sting of death is sin, I Cor 15:56. But as long as man was condemned through Adam it mattered not what man did, since man was already condemned.
Gen 3:19. Even the New Heaven and New Earth is possible because Christ redeemed this world from destruction and death.
If you want to stick to some unscriptual teaching then you are correct. But if you want to know what scripture means and has always meant from the beginning you have a very long way to go.
You are the one that needs to learn scripture on this topic. I just explained it to you as all Christians understood it from the beginning.
Just some more things on your list to learn correctly, rather than the erroneous ideas you have espoused here.
Obviously you do not understand what it means in scripture, otherwise you would not be asking the question. Just review all the texts I posted earlier and you will be enlightened.
It is amazing that the Incarnation resulted in the Gift of salvation, yet you don't even know what that Gift actually is.
then you have just acknowledged that Christ saved all men from death and sin. It was the penalty of death, the condemnation of death under which all men lived. And yes, He gave life to all men. An eternal existance that was lost through Adam.
All men were saved from death and sin. All men will be raised on the last day because Christ assumed our mortal human nature and raised it to life. John 6:39 states that none will be lost.
You are correct, but it is becoming more visible what you don't understand about scripture as it has always meant from the beginning.
Really. It is an equation. all die through Adam, all have life through Christ. How can you even believe in a hell or heaven? You just negated the possibility. I Cor 15:17 states quite clearly, unless ALL the dead are raised, ones faith is in vain. It is in vain because Christ would have failed in His mission to defeat death.
self incriminating. I am explaining the Gospel as it has always been understood, where man has never made a change to it. You are the one teaching some unknown gospel of some man, maybe even your own.
It is now that Christ redeemed the world from the bondage to death and sin. Now man is going to be held responsible for his sin. Man is no longer under the condemnation of death through Adam. The gift was life so that all could be given the opportunity to choose or reject Christ. One will enjoy eternal life with Christ for those that believe.
Every has the gift. Part of it is to be used in this life, the Sacrifice for sin, the other, the primary work of Christ is that He gave life to the world, so that man and the world will have an eternal existence. The Gift you are offered to recieve is the one to be reunited with God in a personal relationship.
What can I say, you have not given any evidence that I am incorrect as yet. You make assertions, but no text to overturn what I cited or what I explained.
yes, death was the condemnation of Adam's sin. It is the death (mortality) that we inherit by birth, Rom 5:12. And yes, Christ is the LIFE. The gift, Rom 5:14, 18 which is given to ALL MEN. Same as in I Cor 15:22. and why every single human being will be raised from the dead in the last day, John 6:39, Rev 20:13.
YOu are absolutely Correct. You will be raised, as every single human being will be raised in the last day to an eternal existence.
The question we are dealing with is wha side of eternity will you be on, with Christ or apart from HIM?
No, we have all men alive with an eternal existance, but the question that needs to be decided is where each will spend eternity, with Christ or apart from HIm. That is why Christ saved the world, so that the purpose of why man was created could be finished, fulfilled.
Well I will await your scripture that overturns the Incarnation of Christ and what it accomplished. it has not only been held from the beginning, but it is also, along with the Trintity, one of the hallmarks of Christianity.
And you have no understanding of it.
that is quite unscriptural, since it is one of the basic tenents of belief. Belief in it is what justifies a person to Christ by faith.
God created them to be eternal. But as you state in #2 Adam lost eternal existance for all men, even for the world. The world was condemned to decay, corruption and death along with Adam.
correct, actually permanent non-existance since it was dust to dust, Gen 3:19.
that depends on context. ONly those that believe are offered eternal life with Christ.
quite the contrary. NOt just life but immortal life and incorruptibility. I Cor 15:53.
Life with Christ. Context in scripture will always point to either all men haveing life, eternal existance, or life with Christ through faith.
I think I have a lot better grasp than you do as it made quite clear in this post. You have a very long way to go on this subject.
From scripture. But we are not speaking about Satan. Satan was also not among those saved through Christ's Incarnation either.
You are correct. But it is death, our mortal nature that causes us to sin so easily. The sting of death is sin, I Cor 15:56. But as long as man was condemned through Adam it mattered not what man did, since man was already condemned.
Gen 3:19. Even the New Heaven and New Earth is possible because Christ redeemed this world from destruction and death.
If you want to stick to some unscriptual teaching then you are correct. But if you want to know what scripture means and has always meant from the beginning you have a very long way to go.
You are the one that needs to learn scripture on this topic. I just explained it to you as all Christians understood it from the beginning.
Just some more things on your list to learn correctly, rather than the erroneous ideas you have espoused here.
but the context will tell you what the subject would be.
In Titus 3:5 the works of Righteousness are those Christ did on our behalf, fulfiling the law, and saved mankind from death and sin. It is not refering to the works of righteousness which a believer does as in I John 3:7.
I don't know what works of merit would even be so the person who wrote it would be best to answer it.
In Titus 3:5 the works of Righteousness are those Christ did on our behalf, fulfiling the law, and saved mankind from death and sin. It is not refering to the works of righteousness which a believer does as in I John 3:7.
I don't know what works of merit would even be so the person who wrote it would be best to answer it.
What I simply did in my study is believe what the Holy Bible says and teaches.
The Gospel which the Angel preaches in Rev. 14:6 is concerning God's judgment. It is not the same Gospel that we preach today.
That's why it is important to be dispensational in your study of the Scriptures.
The everlasting Gospel is for the dispensation of the time of Jacob's trouble. It is not for the current dispensation (Church Age) which we operate in Today.
Amazing what men like Darby and Scofield can come up with from scripture. One wonders why the Church Age was never told this, and that the Bible should have been severely edited so that a believer would not get confused.
But then where is this teaching prior to the early 19th century? Was the early Church taught any of these theories? Is there any evidence that this theory is actually the meaning of scripture from the beginning?
But then where is this teaching prior to the early 19th century? Was the early Church taught any of these theories? Is there any evidence that this theory is actually the meaning of scripture from the beginning?
Nope. . .
You really do not know, or understand, the Scriptures well enough to represent them correctly.
I will take the time to unravel and sort out this prinicple for you, so pay attention.
In your inadequate understanding of Scripture, you are:
Firstly, misrepresenting the meaning of righteousness.
Righteousness (justification) is (positional) right standing before God because of
forgiveness of sin through faith by grace, which is salvation (Lk 1:77) from God's wrath (Ro 5:9)
on that sin.
Biblical principle #1:
Righteousness (justification) = salvation.
Secondly, you are confusing two different issues and confounding them into one.
1) the issue of TRUE faith vs. COUNTERFEIT faith,
2) the issue of TO BE SAVED vs. HAVE BEEN SAVED.
Regarding issue 1) TRUE faith vs. COUNTERFEIT faith:
Firstly, profession of faith is not necessarily possession of true faith, as we see in Mt 7:21-23.
So then, what is the difference between true faith and counterfeit faith,
and how do we know which is which?
The difference is shown in Mt 7:21-23.
True faith obeys, counterfeit faith does not.
Anyone who says they believe, but who does not obey, does not really have true faith,
they have counterfeit faith.
Only true faith automatically saves, counterfeit faith does not save.
Therefore, anyone who says they are saved, but who does not obey, is not saved,
not because he does not have the works necessary for salvation,
but because he does not have the true faith, necessary for salvation,
which true faith automatically saves without any works (Eph 2:8-9).
Disobedience simply manifests that one's faith is counterfeit, rather than true,
and one has not been saved by their counterfeit faith.
Biblical principle #2:
Those who do not obey are not saved, not because they do not have the works
necessary for salvation,
but because they do not have the true faith necessary for salvation,
which counterfeit faith is shown by their disobedience.
Secondly, the true faith which automatically saves is by grace, without any works,
it is 100% a gift of God (Eph 2:8-9).
And this is what you deliberately (it appears to me) confound with the second issue, following:
Regarding issue 2) TO BE SAVED vs. HAVE BEEN SAVED:
As it relates to faith, this issue is very simple.
Paul uses the example of Abraham to show the relation of
faith to righteousness [= salvation from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) by forgiveness of sin (Lk 1:77)].
Abraham was declared righteous before he had done any works.
His works didn't make him righteous, they simply showed that he was righteous because of his faith.
Only true faith, without works, automatically saves, as a gift of God (Eph 2:8-9).
If I say I have been saved, then I am saying I have true faith,
for only true faith automatically saves without works.
And if I have true faith, then I will be obeying, for true faith obeys.
If I say I am saved, but I am not obeying, I show that I have counterfeit faith, not true faith.
Counterfeit faith does not save.
So if I say I am saved, but show that my faith is counterfeit, then I am deceived, and am not saved.
Biblical Principle #3:
Works are not necessary TO BE SAVED,
works only show that I HAVE BEEN SAVED by a true faith.
These are what you misunderstand and confound
to arrive at your false, twice-condemned gospel (Gal 1:6-9).
Please do not make it necessary to explain these to you again.
You really do not know, or understand, the Scriptures well enough to represent them correctly.
I will take the time to unravel and sort out this prinicple for you, so pay attention.
In your inadequate understanding of Scripture, you are:
Firstly, misrepresenting the meaning of righteousness.
Righteousness (justification) is (positional) right standing before God because of
forgiveness of sin through faith by grace, which is salvation (Lk 1:77) from God's wrath (Ro 5:9)
on that sin.
Biblical principle #1:
Righteousness (justification) = salvation.
Secondly, you are confusing two different issues and confounding them into one.
1) the issue of TRUE faith vs. COUNTERFEIT faith,
2) the issue of TO BE SAVED vs. HAVE BEEN SAVED.
Regarding issue 1) TRUE faith vs. COUNTERFEIT faith:
Firstly, profession of faith is not necessarily possession of true faith, as we see in Mt 7:21-23.
So then, what is the difference between true faith and counterfeit faith,
and how do we know which is which?
The difference is shown in Mt 7:21-23.
True faith obeys, counterfeit faith does not.
Anyone who says they believe, but who does not obey, does not really have true faith,
they have counterfeit faith.
Only true faith automatically saves, counterfeit faith does not save.
Therefore, anyone who says they are saved, but who does not obey, is not saved,
not because he does not have the works necessary for salvation,
but because he does not have the true faith, necessary for salvation,
which true faith automatically saves without any works (Eph 2:8-9).
Disobedience simply manifests that one's faith is counterfeit, rather than true,
and one has not been saved by their counterfeit faith.
Biblical principle #2:
Those who do not obey are not saved, not because they do not have the works
necessary for salvation,
but because they do not have the true faith necessary for salvation,
which counterfeit faith is shown by their disobedience.
Secondly, the true faith which automatically saves is by grace, without any works,
it is 100% a gift of God (Eph 2:8-9).
And this is what you deliberately (it appears to me) confound with the second issue, following:
Regarding issue 2) TO BE SAVED vs. HAVE BEEN SAVED:
As it relates to faith, this issue is very simple.
Paul uses the example of Abraham to show the relation of
faith to righteousness [= salvation from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) by forgiveness of sin (Lk 1:77)].
Abraham was declared righteous before he had done any works.
His works didn't make him righteous, they simply showed that he was righteous because of his faith.
Only true faith, without works, automatically saves, as a gift of God (Eph 2:8-9).
If I say I have been saved, then I am saying I have true faith,
for only true faith automatically saves without works.
And if I have true faith, then I will be obeying, for true faith obeys.
If I say I am saved, but I am not obeying, I show that I have counterfeit faith, not true faith.
Counterfeit faith does not save.
So if I say I am saved, but show that my faith is counterfeit, then I am deceived, and am not saved.
Biblical Principle #3:
Works are not necessary TO BE SAVED,
works only show that I HAVE BEEN SAVED by a true faith.
These are what you misunderstand and confound
to arrive at your false, twice-condemned gospel (Gal 1:6-9).
Please do not make it necessary to explain these to you again.
P.S.:
If I say I have been saved, then I am saying I have true faith,
for only true faith automatically saves without works.
And if I have true faith, then I will be obeying, for true faith obeys.
If I say I am saved, but I am not obeying, I show that I have counterfeit faith, not true faith.
Counterfeit faith does not save.
So if I say I am saved, but show that my faith is counterfeit, then I am deceived, and am not saved.
You confound true faith vs. counterfeit faith with. . .to be saved vs. have been saved.
Biblical Principle #3:
Works are not necessary TO BE SAVED,
works only show that I HAVE BEEN SAVED by a true faith.
These are what you misunderstand and confound
to arrive at your false, twice-condemned gospel (Gal 1:6-9).
Please do not make it necessary to explain these to you again.
If I say I have been saved, then I am saying I have true faith,
for only true faith automatically saves without works.
And if I have true faith, then I will be obeying, for true faith obeys.
If I say I am saved, but I am not obeying, I show that I have counterfeit faith, not true faith.
Counterfeit faith does not save.
So if I say I am saved, but show that my faith is counterfeit, then I am deceived, and am not saved.
You confound true faith vs. counterfeit faith with. . .to be saved vs. have been saved.
Biblical Principle #3:
Works are not necessary TO BE SAVED,
works only show that I HAVE BEEN SAVED by a true faith.
These are what you misunderstand and confound
to arrive at your false, twice-condemned gospel (Gal 1:6-9).
Please do not make it necessary to explain these to you again.
What in the world does that mean?
That "Scripture has always meant" something other than what it states?
That is absurd!
"Scripture has always meant" exactly what it states.
And what it states is what we are discussing.
Are you proposing an authority higher than Scripture which can authorize what Scripture does not state?
Your religion is contra-Biblical and false.
That "Scripture has always meant" something other than what it states?
That is absurd!
"Scripture has always meant" exactly what it states.
And what it states is what we are discussing.
Are you proposing an authority higher than Scripture which can authorize what Scripture does not state?
Your religion is contra-Biblical and false.
H
It's unfortunate that you read scripture as a natural man does and therefore lack any spiritual discernment.
In scripture there are physical and spiritual parallels, but your focus is only ever on the physical.
I referred to you as a legalist because your argument is the same as what we see from them on forums. It's the same old facade of "love" whilst at it's core is the doctrine of righteousness by works of the law. Legalists are not content with faith in Christ. Righteousness by faith is not sufficient for them hence they weave in works of the law.
Several of us here have asked you what amount of good deeds and obedience to the law is required, by your thinking, to show our faith. You have yet to answer this. Please be specific, using scripture, as so far you have merely quoted scripture you do not understand and thereby offer ambiguous responses, at best.
In scripture there are physical and spiritual parallels, but your focus is only ever on the physical.
I referred to you as a legalist because your argument is the same as what we see from them on forums. It's the same old facade of "love" whilst at it's core is the doctrine of righteousness by works of the law. Legalists are not content with faith in Christ. Righteousness by faith is not sufficient for them hence they weave in works of the law.
Several of us here have asked you what amount of good deeds and obedience to the law is required, by your thinking, to show our faith. You have yet to answer this. Please be specific, using scripture, as so far you have merely quoted scripture you do not understand and thereby offer ambiguous responses, at best.
No, the refusal to understand is yours.
God's free gifts are works of his power, not based on man's meeting "conditions."
Faith is a free gift (Php 1:29; 1Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3) by the power of God--no conditions for man to meet.
Repentance is a free gift (2Tim 2:25; Ac 11:18; 5:31) by the power of God--no conditions for man to meet.
Salvation is a free gift (Eph 2:8-9) by the power of God--no conditions for man to meet.
You don't know the difference between God's free gifts and man's works,
and make God's free gifts into man's works for salvation.
God's free gifts are works of his power, not based on man's meeting "conditions."
Faith is a free gift (Php 1:29; 1Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3) by the power of God--no conditions for man to meet.
Repentance is a free gift (2Tim 2:25; Ac 11:18; 5:31) by the power of God--no conditions for man to meet.
Salvation is a free gift (Eph 2:8-9) by the power of God--no conditions for man to meet.
You don't know the difference between God's free gifts and man's works,
and make God's free gifts into man's works for salvation.
NO, it has always had the same meaning, the same meaning as given to the Apostles originally. The Gospel was given Once to the saints. It has not changed since that beginning. Because it has never changed we can very easily today, 2000 years later, check against false teachings. A false teaching, always of men, have all originated after the Original Gospel.
yes, it does. It always has had ONE meaning, the Original meaning.
I am, but you are espousing a theory that originated by a man, Luther, at the Reformation 1500 years after the Original was given.
Yes, Christ as Head over His Church, and the Holy Spirit whose purpose is to guard both the Body of Christ and the Gospel entrusted to it. The Church is the ground and pillar of Truth, I Tim 3:15. He guards it against false teachings that it does not teach.
You can argue with the Head, Christ. He seems to have a much different persective than your unscriptual principle of "sola scriptura".
After 500 years of chaos, confusion and division any human being could recognize that scripture alone does not have any authority, but only man imposing his vaunted interpretations against it.
yes, it does. It always has had ONE meaning, the Original meaning.
I am, but you are espousing a theory that originated by a man, Luther, at the Reformation 1500 years after the Original was given.
Yes, Christ as Head over His Church, and the Holy Spirit whose purpose is to guard both the Body of Christ and the Gospel entrusted to it. The Church is the ground and pillar of Truth, I Tim 3:15. He guards it against false teachings that it does not teach.
You can argue with the Head, Christ. He seems to have a much different persective than your unscriptual principle of "sola scriptura".
After 500 years of chaos, confusion and division any human being could recognize that scripture alone does not have any authority, but only man imposing his vaunted interpretations against it.
The gospel of the Kingdom (e.g., Matt. 4:23)
The gospel of Jesus Christ ... the Kingdom of God (Mark 1:1,14)
The gospel preached to every creature with signs following (Mark 16:15,17,18)
The gospel of God (e.g., Rom.1:1)
The gospel of His Son (Rom 1:9)
The gospel of Christ (Rom. 1:16)
My gospel (Rom. 2:16; 16:25; 2 Tim. 2:8)
The glorious gospel or the gospel of the Glory of Christ (2 Cor. 4:4)
The gospel of the uncircumcision (Gal. 2:7)
The gospel of the circumcision (Gal.2:7)
The gospel of the Grace of God (Acts 20:24)
The gospel of your salvation (Eph. 1:13)
The gospel of Peace (Eph.6:15)
The gospel of the glory of the Blessed God (1 Tim. 1:11)
The Everlasting Gospel (Rev.14:6)