Dangers of Manism

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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#81
We've already refuted this heresy AmberGardner. God is NOT a "heterosexual couple" nor is the Imago Dei dependent on or equitable to gender.

While Scripture mentions the Imago Dei several times (Genesis 5:1, 9:6; 1 Corinthians 11:7; Colossians 3:10; James 3:9), Genesis 1:26–27 is the most important text.

As Wayne Grudem PhD states in Systematic Theology, "Hebrew references to 'image' (tselem) and 'likeness' (demût) convey the idea of an object similar to or representative of something else, but not identical to it" with Geoffrey Bromiley PhD expounding stating, "further, the words 'image' and 'likeness' should not be understood as referring to two different things, but rather as interchangeable terms that reflect a Hebrew form of synonymous parallelism."

They go on to state that the New Testament Greek word for image (eikōn) conveys virtually the same meaning as the Hebrew with both languages indicating that God created humans to be similar to himself: but not identical to himself.

Therefore from a biblical perspective, human beings are in some sense both like and unlike the God who made them.

Scripture contains an implicit rather than explicit explanation of the image of God with a definition for Imago Dei arising through proper inferences from the biblical text which asserts that humankind possesses a formal nature that serves to represent God consisting of certain qualities, characteristics, and endowments (spiritual, rational, relational, volitional, functional, etc.) that make humankind similar to God in certain respects.

You've grossly misrepresented scripture related to Imago Dei to arrive at a heretical conclusion that "God is a heterosexual couple."

Furthermore, throughout both the Old and New Testaments, whenever reference is made to God (or, for that matter, to the other two members of the Godhead) a male pronoun (He, Him, His, etc.) is employed.

Male names/terms are applied to God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit throughout Scripture. The names for God—Yahweh, Elohim, Shaddai, Sebbaoth, Adonai, Kurios, and Theos—are all masculine gender. Furthermore, male metaphors frequently are applied to God.

And not just God the Father and Jesus Christ are male either. God the Holy Spirit has all the elements of personhood attributed to Him in Scripture: He has a mind (John 14:26; 1 Cor. 2:11), He has will (1 Cor. 12:11), and He has feeling (Eph. 4:30).

Further, personal pronouns ("He" and "His") are attributed to the Holy Spirit: "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come" (John 16:13, emphasis added; cf. John 14:26).

"When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me" (John 15:26).

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you" (John 14:15-17).

“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you" (John 16:12-15).

"When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about me" (John 15:26).

Etc...

God is referred to hundreds of times with masculine names and with masculine pronouns such as “he,” “him,” and “his.” God is never given a feminine name, or referred to with feminine pronouns such as “she,” her,” and “hers.”

However, this does not mean that God is male. The masculine pronouns have always had the second, generic sense, referring to both male and female, just as “Man” has been used for centuries to refer to both men and women and there is symbolism in scripture where God is portrayed via female images and metaphors.

The point of all this is that as the Anglican Bishop Hugh Montefiore stated, "God exists eternally, and in the eternal sphere there is no sexual differentiation. God has no gender. He is neither male nor female” (1993, pp. 130-131, emp. in orig.) which is in line with every orthodox traditional Bible scholar from the early church fathers right through to today.

God is not male or female. As God stated, "‘I will be what I will be" which is a declaration of independent, self-determining existence (Ex. 3:14–15).

So why are all persons of the one triune God referred to hundreds of times throughout Scripture by masculine names and masculine pronouns but never given a feminine name or referred to by feminine pronouns?

As Kreeft and Tacelli, in their Handbook of Christian Apologetics, explain:

"The Jewish revelation was distinctive in its exclusively masculine pronoun because it was distinctive in its theology of the divine transcendence. That seems to be the main point of the masculine imagery. As a man comes into a woman from without to make her pregnant, so God creates the universe from without rather than birthing it from within and impregnates our souls with grace or supernatural life from without.

As a woman cannot impregnate herself, so the universe cannot create itself, nor can the soul redeem itself. Surely there is an inherent connection between these two radically distinctive features of the...biblical religions...: their unique view of a transcendent God creating nature out of nothing and their refusal to call God “she” despite the fact that Scripture ascribes to him feminine attributes like compassionate nursing (Is. 49:15), motherly comfort (Is. 66:13) and carrying an infant (Is. 46:3).

The masculine pronoun safeguards:

(1) the transcendence of God against the illusion that nature is born from God as a mother rather than created and

(2) the grace of God against the illusion that we can somehow save ourselves—two illusions ubiquitous and inevitable in the history of religion."

They go on to say, “One issue is whether we have the authority to change the names of God used by Christ, the Bible and the church. The traditional defense of masculine imagery for God rests on the premise that the Bible is divine revelation, not culturally relative, negotiable and changeable.”

Christ Himself left us the perfect example (as He always did) when He said: “Our Father Who art in heaven, hallowed by thy name” in Matthew 6:9.

The fact that biblical designations of God are placed within the specific framework of the masculine settles the matter once and for all. It simply is not a matter up for discussion except amongst feminist false teachers which is something the early church had to refute as well which you can read about here: http://christianchat.com/christian-family-forum/79897-dangers-feminism-21.html#post1439876


Further reading: http://christianchat.com/christian-family-forum/79897-dangers-feminism-19.html#post1439029




God is a heterosexual couple, meaning part of Him, is Her, and they rule. Mankind, Family, Marriage, is in the image of GOD.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#82
God is a heterosexual couple,
God is a holy God. This is a holy topic. This is something we need to write and speak about with the fear of God, not something we need to speculate on, 'stretch' our theology to be hip, cool, or cutting edge.

We give an account for every idle word. Let us speak about God what He has revealed about Himself without speculation, even the speculation that comes from our own seemingly 'logical' conclusions.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,164
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#83
Rachel20,

Your opening post seems to add to the gender war, IMO. If you lump men's rights activists in with men who want to 'keep women down' and label it all as manism, while in your other posts considering feminism to be a good thing, that's adding fuel to the fire. If you use 'Feminism' to refer to fairness and treating women properly, then it isn't fair to use 'Manism' to refer to men wanting to put women down. Calling talking down to women 'mansplaining' has an anti-male ring to it, because the term implies it's the way men, in general, explain things. One of the problems with feminism is that it tends to paint all men in a bad light that the evil patriarchy is out to get women.

I don't use 'Feminism' in a positive way. I use it to refer to the more recent movement that called itself 'Feminism', not previous women's movements like the suffragettes, many of whom would not have believed in the idea of an evil patriarchy or doing away with gender roles in society. Feminism seems to push for whatever is 'good' for women, often from a libertine ungodly perspective, even if that is not for the good of men also or the good of society. Promoting legalized baby-killing, for example.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,164
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#84
Fortunately, Scripture also says that they are to be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth with people and govern it also. So not just have dominion over animals, but God ordained government in this verse as well, and He included women in the rulership.
You quoted a verse about mankind governing the earth, not women governing men. I'm not saying God can't have women in government, but in general the Bible paints male leadership in a more positive light. At least females in leadership seems to be lamented on at least one occasion and there are plenty of cases where God put men and not women in leadership roles. And of course wives are to submit to their own husbands, and the husband is the head of the wife.
 
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AmberGardner

Guest
#85
What's your point? The Holy Spirit had to come from somewhere seeing as God the Father is the Most High. The Holy Spirit has always existed within Him.
.

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,
.

Genesis 2:22
Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
.

Luke 1:35
The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.


A heterosexual couple. Those Scriptures are the Words of GOD, not the opinion of man.

 

proverbs35

Senior Member
Nov 10, 2012
827
239
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#86
Let's start with the OP. You're painting with an awfully fat brush here.
I believe that the OP is a response and reciprocation to the thread titled dangers of feminism. "You're painting with an awfully fat brush here." Some could say (or think) the same thing about that particular thread. I just want to raise awareness about where this OP might be stemming from. Sometimes, commenting on a thread can be like coming in on the tail end of a conversation.


I'm not even sure you've made your point except to point out that primarily Muslim countries are the ones that behave this way.
The reference to Middle Eastern society (or non-Christian society) is a very common part of the manosphere rhetoric. They often talk about how wifely submission is more culturally accepted and valued in many non-Christian societies like the East vs. Western society. Therefore, I think that reference was actually raised by the manosphere. I know I've seen such comments from the manosphere around the blogsphere.


I haven't studied this subject matter, but might find it of interest.
I would like to recommend the Generous Husband. He is a very balanced, scripturally grounded Christian husband who believes in and promotes male headship (authority), wifely submission and a husband's duty to love his wife like Christ loved the church. He is not a feminist, and he doesn't support the manosphere movement either. He says, "I have long said feminism was a wrong response to a very real problem. I am old enough to have seen first hand the horrible and completely unbiblical ways women were treated. There was a problem, and most men, and most churches (which were ruled almost always by men) chose to ignore, deny or justify the problems. The situation was horrible, and it was only a matter of time before something happened. What happened did offer some help for many, but it also created a good many new problems. In the same light, the manosphere seems to me to be a wrong response to the very real problems caused by feminism... I have several problems with the traditional part of the manosphere".


Read full post at: http://www.the-generous-husband.com/2014/02/11/the-manosphere/


In 42 years of living, and all the men I've ever been close to, I've only ever met one man who seemed intent to subjugate women, and he was an abusive lunatic who tried to use the bible as a club. Your broad brush is painting all men the same color as he is; that's a spirit of discrimination and untruth.
That's a blessing!!! If only all women (or even most) could honestly say the same, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation or reading this OP.


From what I read about the "manosphere" (silly name) these men mostly want the freedom to act like men and not be persecuted for that.
In the Generous Husband's post I linked above, he details the different sects of manosphere. To say that "these men mostly want the freedom to act like men and not be persecuted for that" would be to paint "with an awfully fat brush" because there are various sects of manosphere and they have different beliefs about what it means "to act like men." Although they gather under the same umbrella, they are different. The Generous Husband touches on those differences.
 
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AmberGardner

Guest
#87
Esther 1:22 He sent dispatches to all parts of the kingdom, to each province in its own script and to each people in their own language, proclaiming that every man should be ruler over his own household, using his native tongue.
His OWN household. Not every other man's or woman's household in the kingdom.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#88
I'm curious. Do any of the feminists who post on these forums have difficulty doing so because they have the 'submit' button?
 
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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#89
Considering that they falsely assert God is a girl, that might be a good thing.

I'm curious. Do any of the feminists who post on these forums have difficulty doing so because they have the 'submit' button?
 

Rachel20

Senior Member
May 7, 2013
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#90
I'm curious. Do any of the feminists who post on these forums have difficulty doing so because they have the 'submit' button?

I cannot believe , after all the discussions that some of these women have had you, with all due respect, this is the kind of thing you post.
I thought you would extend that same courtesy to them.

Maybe I shouldn't expect more because while plagiarism (lying and stealing) is a cultural convention to you, the roles of women are not.
That sort of double standard is really convenient.

Anyway. God bless you
 
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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#91
[video=youtube_share;dm3FlbUf5gA]http://youtu.be/dm3FlbUf5gA[/video]
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,164
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#92
I cannot believe , after all the discussions that some of these women have had you, with all due respect, this is the kind of thing you post.
I thought you would extend that same courtesy to them.
The post was meant as a joke. I saw it form another forum once, and people who disagreed on the issue of feminism seemed to think it was funny. Maybe it doesn't transfer well cross-culturally. I'm sorry if you found it offensive.

Maybe I shouldn't expect more because while plagiarism (lying and stealing) is a cultural convention to you, the roles of women are not.
That sort of double standard is really convenient.
Some aspects of the role of women may be cultural conventions. I don't have a problem with that idea. But there are some things that are taught in scripture. A specific set of laws protecting intellectual property or requiring citations are not.
 
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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#93
It's a disingenuous fallacious tactic to attack a messenger because one cannot refute an argument but I've never met a feminist who didn't energetically engage in the practice.

In my observation, feminists are not open to correction. It doesn't matter what the criteria or context is. It doesn't matter what the truth is. If a feminist cannot refute an argument they default to attacking the messenger as their primary strategy.

Modern secular feminists are compared to the harpies of antiquity because of the personal nature of their attacks, hyper aggressiveness, extreme hostility and ill-temperedness, and the contamination of what they come in contact with metaphorically speaking.


But there are some things that are taught in scripture. A specific set of laws protecting intellectual property or requiring citations are not.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,164
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#94
[video=youtube_share;dm3FlbUf5gA]http://youtu.be/dm3FlbUf5gA[/video]
I finally got around to watching that. I'm not libertarian, but she gave a really brilliant speech there. I would have like to have heard some more sources for some parts of it, but that's just me. Still, it was a good presentation of the problem with feminism.

To summarize, Feminism just substitutes labels and categories from Communist philosophy. Instead of the wealthy oppressing the poor laborers, it posits men oppressed women and that the woes of women are men's fault. As a Communist might categorically oppose the wealthy as a class, so women oppose men as a class.

Historically, it ignores that men who made financial decisions for the family also were expected to use their wealth to provide for the family-- a legally enforceable obligation, and that men were more often put in roles where their lives were at risk. And the revision of history ignores the majority of poor men and uses the fact that the elite were male as justification for opposing all men.

There is a pure, good form of patriarchy. God is the Father, and He is over all.
 
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Icalledout

Guest
#95
I'm new here and this thread jumped out at me simply because I've never heard that term before as I don't frequent churches I was wondering if this was a new " Christian" thing I certainly haven't come across it in the wider world
It sounds very sad if this is true and there are men who want to crush the spirit of woman just because they are not man
Are we not all full of the spirit of god the same spirit that was given to us all from god so we are one in the spirit lifted up together and edified together as one in the truth
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,164
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#96
Icalledout,

We were discussing feminism earlier. One of the posters thinks feminism is wanting all good things. But we were talking about some of the bad points of modern feminism.

So she invented the term 'manism' for bad things about men that bother her. Feminism is supposed to be good, and manism is supposed to be bad.

That's one of the problems with modern feminism. It presents women as good and men as bad. The woes of women are blamed on an imaginary 'patriarchy.'

It's a re-adaptation of Marxist dogma which stirs up class hatred between workers and the rich owners of the means of production. Except women replace workers and the rich are replaced with 'the patriarchy.'
 
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Icalledout

Guest
#97
Ok I see what you are saying now
 

Rachel20

Senior Member
May 7, 2013
1,639
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#98
Icalledout,

We were discussing feminism earlier. One of the posters thinks feminism is wanting all good things. But we were talking about some of the bad points of modern feminism.

So she invented the term 'manism' for bad things about men that bother her. Feminism is supposed to be good, and manism is supposed to be bad.

That's one of the problems with modern feminism. It presents women as good and men as bad. The woes of women are blamed on an imaginary 'patriarchy.'

It's a re-adaptation of Marxist dogma which stirs up class hatred between workers and the rich owners of the means of production. Except women replace workers and the rich are replaced with 'the patriarchy.'
Are you trying to refer to me Presidente?



"
One of the posters thinks feminism is wanting all good things. But we were talking about some of the bad points of modern feminism.

So she invented the term 'manism' for bad things about men that bother her. Feminism is supposed to be good, and manism is supposed to be bad."

This thread was started by me, so I take that this was meant for me personally.

Firstly, I think you are being absolutely disrespectful to me, as not only have you thrown broad generalizations, but pretended to be a mouthpiece for all other female posters here.

If you are discussing the pitfalls of modern feminism, please do go ahead and post in the feminism thread that you created.
This thread was created to discuss the opposite phenomenon of man's rights movements.

Do not speak for me while I am also very much present here as a user. That is rude.

Also I request that you re-read the OP and discuss the topic at hand. Your issues with feminism is a different tangent. Manism is a very real thing.

 
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Rachel20

Senior Member
May 7, 2013
1,639
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#99
Also, I wish to share this video with other users, but I warn that it contains very sensitive issues, like eve teasing, public harrassment of women etc.

It's a short film, that must have been inspired in the wake of the Delhi Rape of 2012. It's a story of three women and their daily struggles with a group of ''manists'' - a bunch of rowdy, intimidating men who harrass them regularly.

Maybe it comes across as an absurd concept - but where I am, some of the mindset of men is just that - look down on women as objects.
Women are apparently inferior.

Maybe it's a difference in cultures but I would like to broaden the thinking of many other people here. Why? Because we are the body of Christ and we are not from one country.

I would really suggest you watch the film to the end. It is definitely thought provoking.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQR6cB1DXzY.



EDIT- I realize this is in Hindi, but sometimes words are not necessary to understand the context. Please do watch it.
2. Also, I would suggest this only for an older audience.
 
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lol. i thought this thread was about the dangers of, like, manish lesbians or something. never heard of manism until now. weird that there's a whole world of it and i didn't even know! haha.

my take on it is men like to talk about their work and for the woman to listen and care. they don't like super-long emotional discussions either.:) get to the point i think is the idea.

men don't like to be criticized or talked down to by their women, that's for sure.
 
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