Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[Jabberjaw]

By Christ sins are already dealt with washed away by the blood not the water

you can twist your words all you want, you can even twist my words with yours, but DO NOT QUOTE ME AND CHANGE MY WORDS YOU QUOTED AS YOU DID HERE:

You speak of baptism as though you just took a bath, you disgrace Gods word.

Peter said water baptism saves :

1 Peter 3:20-21 (NKJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. [SUP]21 [/SUP]There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
And you say this below, and above it says no:
Like water washed away the sins of the world, now (an antitype) washes away our individual sins, then he CLEARS UP, WHAT YOU REFUSE TO SEE, "NOT THE REMOVAL OF FILTH OF THE FLESH" so this is not a BATH. it is a "spiritual cleansing by the Holy Spirit" the "answer of a good conscience toward God".

I see your well crafted twist here in scripture, very good flesh work there, thank you

Then notice he says "through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" what does he mean by that? Paul clears that up. :

Romans 6:3-5 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized, (baptized here is Holy Ghost Baptism, not water) into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

For John baptized with water and Father baptizes with Holy Spirit and with fire to burn out our flesh that is evil from being born son's of Adam in flesh, transferred form death to new life in Spirit and truth only as today since we are in unredeemed flesh born as Son's of Fallen Adam

But you have sinners saved, you think all one must do is believe...Again, Paul "believed" on the road to Damascus, but he was not saved when he believed, he was not sinless until he got there :

You are in the energy of your own flesh and I commend you to try to see the whole truth, you will when you come to the end of the energy of your own flesh trying to be approved by it
Acts 22:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Above is no longer my words but your twisted up mess!

 

[Kerry]

Amos 5

20 Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
21I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.
22 Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts.

Reckon why?

 

[BenFTW]

My aim was to point out your arrogance and, well... ego, your claim here:



You and others have done nothing but go in circles, your refutation is fruitless... then you have the arrogance to say you and others refuted this already as if we should take your word for it and its done already, you have shown unbiblical ideas and nothing more.



you think this thread should be over because you think YOU have cleared everyone's error for them, that my friend is egotistical, if you think you have said your piece and have nothing more to add, don't come back asking "Is this thread still going?", just go to another thread.



See post 2196, Jesus will not obey the Gospel for you, and you cannot show one shred of scripture that says YOU have nothing to do to be saved, throwing some scripture ripped out of context then leaving and coming back later thinking this should be settled because you said so, well let see, what should we call that?

That is not the case, as I already explained the reason why. Same questions and same points, for over 40 more pages since some of us have quite rebutting SeaBass. This isn't an egotistical remark, but a question as to how for forty more pages could points that were at the beginning of the thread continue on, when MULTIPLE (not just me, I pointed to others) users showed why what was being presented wasn't gospel and the error of the question. It would've been egotistical if I mentioned myself only, but I mentioned myself among others who were defending the Gospel if you will. That wasn't ego, but fact. Jabberjaw you're quick to be defamatory and you still have yet to shown me using verses out of context and going in circles. Want some ego? The only circles are the ones I'm running around you. lol Kidding, but honestly, you're throwing out insults, or comments I find insulting, when you haven't even provided evidence of such. Still waiting...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That is not the case, as I already explained the reason why. Same questions and same points, for over 40 more pages since some of us have quite rebutting SeaBass. This isn't an egotistical remark, but a question as to how for forty more pages could points that were at the beginning of the thread continue on, when MULTIPLE (not just me, I pointed to others) users showed why what was being presented wasn't gospel and the error of the question. It would've been egotistical if I mentioned myself only, but I mentioned myself among others who were defending the Gospel if you will. That wasn't ego, but fact. Jabberjaw you're quick to be defamatory and you still have yet to shown me using verses out of context and going in circles. Want some ego? The only circles are the ones I'm running around you. lol Kidding, but honestly, you're throwing out insults, or comments I find insulting, when you haven't even provided evidence of such. Still waiting...

lol. I like how you called out your ego. your probably one of the most humble ones here, It is sad when he can not see his own ego or arrogance. Like he has the right to call out any one elses.

Keep up the good work bro.

 

[Jabberjaw]

That is not the case, as I already explained the reason why. Same questions and same points, for over 40 more pages since some of us have quite rebutting SeaBass. This isn't an egotistical remark, but a question as to how for forty more pages could points that were at the beginning of the thread continue on, when MULTIPLE (not just me, I pointed to others) users showed why what was being presented wasn't gospel and the error of the question. It would've been egotistical if I mentioned myself only, but I mentioned myself among others who were defending the Gospel if you will. That wasn't ego, but fact. Jabberjaw you're quick to be defamatory and you still have yet to shown me using verses out of context and going in circles. Want some ego? The only circles are the ones I'm running around you. lol Kidding, but honestly, you're throwing out insults, or comments I find insulting, when you haven't even provided evidence of such. Still waiting...

All I have seen is you and the "faith only" crowd like a dog chasing their tail, you act as if SeaBass is the only one with an opposing opinion to your faith only people, I and others have presented scripture that you cannot address, that righteous works are a requirement for salvation, and your side has jumped all around this like a fish out of water.

 

[BenFTW]

All I have seen is you and the "faith only" crowd like a dog chasing their tail, you act as if SeaBass is the only one with an opposing opinion to your faith only people, I and others have presented scripture that you cannot address, that righteous works are a requirement for salvation, and your side has jumped all around this like a fish out of water.

Romans 4

King James Version (KJV)

4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,



If righteous works were a requirement of salvation, it isn't a free gift but a wage due. When you die and stand before the Father, you will be able to say, "Give me salvation, as I have earned it." It is a debt God owes you, if indeed works are required. To even maintain salvation through good works, makes God a debtor to man, and He then owes them salvation. Again, adding any work upon the grace of God makes salvation a wage due and not a free gift.

 

[SeaBass]

YOUR ERROR NOW is defining everyone as a Christian who acknowledges who Jesus is. The problem with that concept is that would make the Demons Christians:

Luke 8:28-33 (HCSB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] When he saw Jesus, he cried out, fell down before Him, and said in a loud voice, “What do You have to do with me, Jesus, You Son of the Most High God? I beg You, don’t torment me!”
[SUP]29 [/SUP] For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. Many times it had seized him, and though he was guarded, bound by chains and shackles, he would snap the restraints and be driven by the demon into deserted places.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] “What is your name?” Jesus asked him. “Legion,” he said—because many demons had entered him.
[SUP]31 [/SUP] And they begged Him not to banish them to the abyss.
[SUP]32 [/SUP] A large herd of pigs was there, feeding on the hillside. The demons begged Him to permit them to enter the pigs, and He gave them permission.
[SUP]33 [/SUP] The demons came out of the man and entered the pigs, and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and drowned.

See, being a Christian is MUCH MORE than bowing down before HIM, and acknowledging WHO HE IS, or you make those 1000 demons eligible to be called Christians.

It is NOT how much you learn about Jesus, or how many facts about Jesus you learn and admit are absolutely true, that makes you a CHRISTIAN. Even the demons do that much.

It is whether or not you, out of a willing heart, because of LOVE for HIM, repent of your sinful life, receiving JESUS in your HEART as LORD and MASTER. And ALL OF THAT IS EVIDENCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT WORKING IN OUR HEARTS. WE DO NOT GET TO PAT OURSELVES ON THE BACK FOR ANY OF IT. That establishment of that inner personal LOVE relationship with Jesus Christ, submitting to HIM as MASTER, is what makes us a REAL CHRISTIAN. Prior to that we are claiming the Name CHRISTIAN IN VAIN.

John 1:12-13 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

? ? ? Received HIM as WHAT though ? ? ?

Colossians 2:6 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in Him,

Romans 10:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess (NOT JUST PROFESS) with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

To answer your questions NOW, real Christians will always produce the fruit of willing obedience because they LOVE HIM, because HE SAVED US (past tense).

BUT THERE ARE MANY FAKE CHRISTIANS, and Jesus taught us we will know them by their fruit. Fake Christians never produce the fruit of Good Works, NOR the genuine LOVE for Jesus Christ.

John 14:15 (HCSB) [SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.

No LOVE for Christ = a counterfeit Christian.
No Desire to Obey Him = a counterfeit Christian.
No lifestyle that produces THE FRUIT of good works out of LOVE for Jesus Christ = a counterfeit Christian.

Now I warn you be patient with the baby Christians. Whenever I planted a fruit tree seed (such as a peach), it was ALWAYS at least two years before I ever saw any of the Fruit it would produce.

Matthew 7:20 (NIV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Luke 8:11-15 (ESV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.

THAT parable is NOT describing unbelievers and three types of believers.

BUT RATHER:

It is describing three types of UNBELIEVERS including two types of fake Christians, and what constitutes a REAL CHRISTIAN in God's eyes. AND good works are some of the FRUIT that a Real Christian produces by the new nature the HOLY SPIRIT put in us.

Don't believe me, then maybe you will listen to Paul:

1 John 2:19 (NIV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Ephesians 4:20-24 (NKJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But you have not so learned Christ,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:
[SUP]22 [/SUP] that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

NO we certainly do not get to pat ourselves on the back.

Can a man who has become a Christian NEVER do any good works and still be saved?

Can I get a simple y'es' or 'no' and go from there?

 

[LT]

Can a man who has become a Christian NEVER do any good works and still be saved?

Can I get a simple y'es' or 'no' and go from there?

false hypothetical.


however,
the thief on the cross did nothing to maintain his salvation.

 

[SeaBass]

Yeah this is Paul's view of the (collective work) of the ENTIRE assembly which was located a Thessalonica and you yanking it out of context so as to apply unto saved by works is contrary to what it teaches and the point that Paul is making....


Again this is taken out of context to try and prove the false teaching of works for and or to keep salvation...their faith was not saving faith, but rather faith that JESUS could heal the man!

The bible ties works and faith so closely together that faith is a work.

Again, what was it Jesus saw that is called faith, Mk 2:5?

 

[SeaBass]

That decision is not mine or yours, the decision is Father's through Son. I do think God is not please with showmanship
Do not tell the left hand what the right hand is doing or do your good works in front of others to get their approval, I tell you the truth those already got their reward, Do whatever you do in secret and not to draw any attention to self as if you are so good when no one is except God
Go into your closet and pray, for God rewards those in secret that are not out for themselves
Please wake up to your adding to believe, and looking to works for reward as it seems this to be what you are saying

A Christian decides to do good works, and must choose to do good works if he is to maintain his salvation...."Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."

 

[SeaBass]

True Christians will always produce at least some good works.

So one cannot be a true Christian WITHOUT works, meaning one cannot be truly saved WITHOUT works.







(I found the picture of the fish somewhere online. It was identified as a sea bass, but I don't know, just wanted a picture for the avatar)

 

[SeaBass]

So maybe you might want to reconsider then and do whart he says to trust him as Christ did and did nothing on his own or his own works, Did Chirst ever take any credit for himself? Not even to the point of claiming to be good
Matt 19 reveals this when he said to that rich man why call me good, fro only my Father is good, and you are here claiminmg your good using God as your Catalyst, for you to get credit

Love you and bless you, God is waiting for you to give up on all your flesh self efforts. No one could ever do what you are claiming one must do, and if one could, there would have never been a need for Christ the righteous

Heb 5:8 "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;"

Christ was obedient and those that become Christians are saved because of His obedience. Men are to follow Christ's example and be obedient to God ourselves.

 

[SeaBass]

No matter what all I see from your posts is manipulation for us to do works and as I am seeing this you are not claiming works are the by-product of Faith in the finished work of Christ. Rather you are adding self works to God's finished work for you
We just simply disagree and you are ion the hands of the savior to teach you truth, that you can't be perfect in and of yourself ever, before saved or after, for I know your obedience is not perfect or is it?

Eccl 12:13 "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole of man."

Being obedient to God is the whole of man and the only ones saved are the ones that are obedient to God....."Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

I am not doing my own self works but doing God's works, the works God has given all men to do.

 

[Cassian]

So my ? to you is are you now sinless in your unredeemed flesh?
or from God by Faith through Son see you as sinless to train and grow you up in God's Spirit, dead to your flesh?

I am not sure I can straighten this out because it has several unscriptural phrases in it.
First, there is NOT a single human being that has not been redeemed by the Blood of Christ. Col 1:20, it even includes the world. Rom 5:6-10, II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 3:23-25 are just a couple.
Secondly, every single person still sins and no man is without sin.

Christ does not see me as sinless, until and except that I repent and confess my sin. Unfortunately, any believer still sins and must confess his sins continually.

 

[LT]

where does the phrase 'maintain your salvation occur in Scripture?

 

[SeaBass]

Do you know that oil and water can't mix? It can be stirred up in a glass and appear to mix right? Now when all is settled they always separate right?

Oil is from Father for the new life in the Spirit by the resurrected Christ, not the dead one
Water is for man and man's efforts
Spirit and flesh do not mix, flesh is flesh and Spirit is Spirit

Sorry you do not reckon yourself dead to flesh Spirit, we are called by the cross to die to flesh as Christ died to flesh, then be raised in Spirit and Justified there by Father to walk in Spirit and truth right or wrong?

The verses I listed are just as necessary to salvation as Jn 3:16. Faith only advocates have an obvious tendency to cherry pick out just the verse that mention "believe" while ignoring all the other salvic verses - as the ones in my list.

 

[SeaBass]

Why then did Christ do this?
Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

God's Grace.

Will grace alone (without your faith) save you? No.

 

[BenFTW]

So one cannot be a true Christian WITHOUT works, meaning one cannot be truly saved WITHOUT works.







(I found the picture of the fish somewhere online. It was identified as a sea bass, but I don't know, just wanted a picture for the avatar)

I can't believe you're still using this line of logic (that isn't very logical). If a king declares a person to be his adviser, is the person his adviser from the time it takes between now being declared the king's adviser and his giving of advice (for the first time)? Yes, the man is the king's adviser, even though his giving advice is an outcome of his position over time. The giving of advice is a potential reality, but whether he reaches that potential (or not) he is still the king's adviser.

As a Christian people will say "salvation leads to good works" but in reality, it should be stated that salvation leads to possible good works. The opportunities must first present themselves. If such opportunities do not, and they fail to do good works, they are still the children of God, they are still born again, they are still not condemned in Christ and they still have salvation as the king's adviser is still the adviser regardless of giving advice or not. It is a given position, and our position is in Christ. "There is therefore now condemnation for those that are in Christ." Works do not maintain your salvation, as has been shown, it is no longer a free gift but a reward, a debt owed, and a wage due (if one works for salvation in any way, shape or form whatsoever).

 

[LT]

Is water cold because it is ice, or is it ice because it's cold?

Is a Christian saved because they are righteous, or are they righteous because they are saved?

 

[Cassian]

The verses I listed are just as necessary to salvation as Jn 3:16. Faith only advocates have an obvious tendency to cherry pick out just the verse that mention "believe" while ignoring all the other salvic verses - as the ones in my list.

Even if they used ONLY the verses where believe or belief are used, they still cannot prove their point. These verbs are always in the present tense, active, continuing. They are never past tense which is what they need, nor is it ever future.