Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[SeaBass]

This thread is still going? SeaBass was refuted multiple times already. By eternally-grateful, JGIG, and myself. Others too, if I remember correctly. Works-based salvation is what his doctrine is, and its false. Maintaining your salvation through good works, is not biblical. Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith. His question is a false dichotomy, and is in error from the output by using a false definition of a Christian, as well. It leaves no room for salvation for those who don't work, but we all know that it isn't about work, but rest. Rest in what or in who? Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross. His death, burial, and resurrection.

Yes, we are saved unto good works, but those works are a fruit of salvation and not the root of salvation. One can be saved and not work, due to circumstance. But to then conclude there is an exception for those not able to work, is to say one should seek to be in such a situation as to assure his salvation. Which is false, because we already have eternal security in Christ.

It comes down to trusting in your own righteousness or Christ's righteousness, that is imputed to those that believe. There is a simplicity of the Gospel that men want to complicate. Abraham believed God, and he was declared righteous (Gen 15:6). It is as simple as belief. God gave us a reference point to believe on, and that is Christ, he gave us something to believe in and that is the finished work of Christ. Its simple, stop complicating it to make new converts to be in fear and condemnation when God wants them in rest and assurance.

Still waiting for a faith only advocate to produce the verse that says "do nothing and thou shalt be saved"

Abraham did not have a dead faith only, Heb 11:8

 

[SeaBass]

Guess WHO disagrees with you:

James 4:6 (NKJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: "God resists the proud, Butgives grace to the humble."

Proverbs 3:34 (NIV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] He mocks proud mockers but gives grace to the humble.

Admit it, you are proud that you think you are earning part of your salvation, aren't you?
The night I was SAVED, I prayed while weeping, "I can't do it. If you want me to live like that YOU will have to come into my heart and do it in me." I still cannot do it of my own power. IT IS CHRIST IN ME DOING WHAT PLEASES THE FATHER.

John 1:16-17 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Indeed, we have all received grace after grace from His fullness,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] for the law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Grace is receiving what we DO NOT DESERVE AND HAVE NOT EARNED IN ANY WAY.

Acts 18:27 (ESV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] And when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed,

Acts 13:43 (HCSB)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] After the synagogue had been dismissed, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who were speaking with them and persuading them to continue in the grace of God.

Acts 20:32 (HCSB)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] “And now I commit you to God and to the message of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you an inheritance among all who are sanctified.

Philippians 1:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Romans 5:15-18 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

CONCLUSION: You can stop patting yourself on the back now.

I repeat it: "through one act of righteousness there resulted justification"

Rom 5:2 "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."

I must have faith to have access to God's grace. No faith = no grace.

So God's grace alone (without man's faith) does not save.

 

[SeaBass]

Seabass, this is incorrect.

Water baptism is in no way connected with a Christian's salvation.

The new birth is spiritual baptism. One gets the new birth when he is regenerated by the Holy Spirit and when he is placed into the Body of Christ.

Now I should mention though; that while water baptism is not connected with ones salvation today.

Water baptism was connected with a person's salvation during the ministry of John the Baptist and also the 3 and a half year ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Why? Because water baptism was connected with the Gospel of the Kingdom. When John the Baptist was preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom to Israel, he also was baptizing the Jews who believed his message concerning the Messiah and His Kingdom.


And again; while water baptism is not needed for one's salvation today in the Church Age.

In the future tribulation period; Water baptism will once again be connected with salvation. Because in the time of Jacob's trouble, the 144,000 Jews will be preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom.

Acts 8, the eunuch was not "spirit baptized" but water baptized, the one baptism of Eph 4:5.


Human administered water baptism saves, Acts 2:38; 1Pet 3:21; Mk 16:16; Rom 6:3-6; Col 2:12-14; Gal 3:27; Matt 28:19,20.

 

[SeaBass]

false hypothetical.


however,
the thief on the cross did nothing to maintain his salvation.

It's a simple question some here are afraid to answer with a simple yes or no.

Was the thief already in a saved position before he was hung upon his cross?

 

[SeaBass]

where does the phrase 'maintain your salvation occur in Scripture?

I use 'maintain' for salvation can be lost. Many verses use the CONDITIONAL word "if" when speaking about salvation, 1 jn 2:24; 2 pet 1:8; James 5:19 among others.

 

[BenFTW]

Even if they used ONLY the verses where believe or belief are used, they still cannot prove their point. These verbs are always in the present tense, active, continuing. They are never past tense which is what they need, nor is it ever future.

Its funny how some people must have some sense of self-righteousness, as that they will take what they can get, no matter how small. "Ha! I maintained my salvation, I endured to the end, and held dear to my belief." As if their believing is any greater than that which they believe in. They want something to boast about. They try as hard as they can to define things as works, because it took effort on their part. The idea of rest tears at their flesh and pride, they cannot sit they must stand! There must be some form of effort, some output of energy, even minute so that they may say, "I did it."

There must be something of which I can boast? Yes! I believed! It is I who believed, how smart I am! I did not do as others working for their salvation, no I believed! How good are my reasoning capabilities? I am a good study! I searched the Gospel and found truth, how studious I am! -- Look at how many "I's" are present. Get your eyes off yourself, and get them on Jesus, he is the one that saves you. If you boast, boast in the Lord.

 

[SeaBass]

I can't believe you're still using this line of logic (that isn't very logical). If a king declares a person to be his adviser, is the person his adviser from the time it takes between now being declared the king's adviser and his giving of advice (for the first time)? Yes, the man is the king's adviser, even though his giving advice is an outcome of his position over time. The giving of advice is a potential reality, but whether he reaches that potential (or not) he is still the king's adviser.

As a Christian people will say "salvation leads to good works" but in reality, it should be stated that salvation leads to possible good works. The opportunities must first present themselves. If such opportunities do not, and they fail to do good works, they are still the children of God, they are still born again, they are still not condemned in Christ and they still have salvation as the king's adviser is still the adviser regardless of giving advice or not. It is a given position, and our position is in Christ. "There is therefore now condemnation for those that are in Christ." Works do not maintain your salvation, as has been shown, it is no longer a free gift but a reward, a debt owed, and a wage due (if one works for salvation in any way, shape or form whatsoever).

VCO posted "True Christians will always produce at least some good works."

The logical implication is one is not a Christian if he has no good works implying good works are necessary to being a true Christian (saved)

One does not become a Christian and remain a Christian by doing nothing. VCO's statement implies that. I do not know about kings and their advisors but nowhere did Jesus tell men do nothing to be saved. But to be a Christian one must believe. Does one have to believe BEFORE he can be a kings advisor? To be a Christian one must first repent of his sins. Must one first repent of his sin to be an advisor? To become a Christian one must confess Christ. Can one be a kings advisor without confessing Christ. To become a Christian one must be baptized for remission of sins. Can one be a kings advisor without having his sins remitted?


It's apparent to me that the qualifications to become a Christian differ than the qualifications to being a king's advisor.

 

[SeaBass]

Is water cold because it is ice, or is it ice because it's cold?

Is a Christian saved because they are righteous, or are they righteous because they are saved?

One is not righteous until they first do righteousness.

 

[SeaBass]

Even if they used ONLY the verses where believe or belief are used, they still cannot prove their point. These verbs are always in the present tense, active, continuing. They are never past tense which is what they need, nor is it ever future.

Jn 3:36 ASV "He that believeth (present, active) on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him."

"Believeth" is set in contrast to "obeyeth not" meaning believing is a form of obedience, something done and not a mere mental ascent of the mind.

 

[Cassian]

Its funny how some people must have some sense of self-righteousness, as that they will take what they can get, no matter how small. "Ha! I maintained my salvation, I endured to the end, and held dear to my belief." As if their believing is any greater than that which they believe in. They want something to boast about. They try as hard as they can to define things as works, because it took effort on their part. The idea of rest tears at their flesh and pride, they cannot sit they must stand! There must be some form of effort, some output of energy, even minute so that they may say, "I did it."

There must be something of which I can boast? Yes! I believed! It is I who believed, how smart I am! I did not do as others working for their salvation, no I believed! How good are my reasoning capabilities? I am a good study! I searched the Gospel and found truth, how studious I am! -- Look at how many "I's" are present. Get your eyes off yourself, and get them on Jesus, he is the one that saves you. If you boast, boast in the Lord.

Did you knock down that strawman.

I don't think there was one thing in your whole post, surely not I, that any opponent to "saved by faith only" has ever stated I will even stick out my neck and say not even implied.

 

[Cassian]

Jn 3:36 ASV "He that believeth (present, active) on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him."

"Believeth" is set in contrast to "obeyeth not" meaning believing is a form of obedience, something done and not a mere mental ascent of the mind.

There are several others as well that contrast with obedience. Obey my commandments, if not obey you are not of me. If you abide in me, keep my commandments.

 

[BenFTW]

Did you knock down that strawman.

I don't think there was one thing in your whole post, surely not I, that any opponent to "saved by faith only" has ever stated I will even stick out my neck and say not even implied.

Its not a strawman, its an observation. It is also a point. For you "works-based" salvation proponents, there must be work of some kind to be saved. There must be effort on your part. Otherwise, it would just be rest. @_@

[h=3]Hebrews 4:10[/h]King James Version (KJV)

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Even if they used ONLY the verses where believe or belief are used, they still cannot prove their point. These verbs are always in the present tense, active, continuing. They are never past tense which is what they need, nor is it ever future.

Yet you ignore the fact that Gods love is in aorist tense, As is not perishing.

This as long as Gods love (which is for the who world) is does not fail, neither shall not perishing.

The not parishing is not based on faith, it is based on his love..

Again you act as if a person who truly trusted him would ever stop believing, and remember, it only take the faith of a mustard seed,

As jesus said to the man who came for him, Do you believe (I can heal your child) WHat was the mans response, I believe but help me with my unbelief. Jesus did not say, well since you only have a little believe, I will wait for you to believe me all the way, then I will heal. He healed the child in spite of his unbelief.

Mark 9:24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Its not a strawman, its an observation. It is also a point. For you "works-based" salvation proponents, there must be work of some kind to be saved. There must be effort on your part. Otherwise, it would just be rest. @_@

Hebrews 4:10

King James Version (KJV)

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

for some reason entering into God rest offends the LAWyers.. and WORKers..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

One is not righteous until they first do righteousness.

You can do no righteous. Stop trusting in self. Your lack of faith in God is amazing, And you can;t even see it

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Its funny how some people must have some sense of self-righteousness, as that they will take what they can get, no matter how small. "Ha! I maintained my salvation, I endured to the end, and held dear to my belief." As if their believing is any greater than that which they believe in. They want something to boast about. They try as hard as they can to define things as works, because it took effort on their part. The idea of rest tears at their flesh and pride, they cannot sit they must stand! There must be some form of effort, some output of energy, even minute so that they may say, "I did it."

There must be something of which I can boast? Yes! I believed! It is I who believed, how smart I am! I did not do as others working for their salvation, no I believed! How good are my reasoning capabilities? I am a good study! I searched the Gospel and found truth, how studious I am! -- Look at how many "I's" are present. Get your eyes off yourself, and get them on Jesus, he is the one that saves you. If you boast, boast in the Lord.

They seem to forget the example of David.

"Against YOU and ONLY YOU have I sinned

 

[VCO]

Here enough is said, you think when it comes to "salvation" that "our Lord did it all", if this was so, then we would have no works to do, everyone is saved from the time our Lord gave Him self on the cross, every man forward and backward of the cross is "saved".

Have you actually listened to what you have said? or what someone has told you? because this idea is not in the bible.

. . .

You need to throw away your man made manuals, creed, catechism's or confessions of faith, and read your bible.

That statement of yours that I highlighted in red, tells me you DID NOT EVEN READ PARAGRAPH 2 of my post 2187, DID YOU?

You STOPPED READING right after I said in Paragraph 1 that " as far as Salvation is concerned OUR LORD DID IT ALL".

I do not use any man made manuals, I have not referred to creeds, catechisms, confessions of faith, for 30 YEARS. I absolutely believe in letting SCRIPTURE interpret SCRIPTURE.

So now that we know you do not read all of our posts, why should we continue discussing anything with you?

 

[Cassian]

Its not a strawman, its an observation. It is also a point. For you "works-based" salvation proponents, there must be work of some kind to be saved. There must be effort on your part. Otherwise, it would just be rest. @_@

Hebrews 4:10

King James Version (KJV)

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Ok, for an observation, but still irrelevent. The position of opponents to "saved by faith only" is that we are saved through faith. Salvation is conditional upon our faith. Our faith must be active, real, not stagnant, empty, and not active. That is what "through means. Faith is empty, dead, and meaningless without content.

Neet proof text of Heb 4:10 trying to use the word rest as it it meant against works. Very typical.
The rest here is refering to entering into Christ which all believers do by faith. A little earlier it states that some in Isreal did not join in rest because of disobedience. So OBEDIENCE is implied to get in, as well as remaining faithful.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ok, for an observation, but still irrelevent. The position of opponents to "saved by faith only" is that we are saved through faith. Salvation is conditional upon our faith. Our faith must be active, real, not stagnant, empty, and not active. That is what "through means. Faith is empty, dead, and meaningless without content.

who is your faith in,

Yourself?

God?

If it is God, how can it be your work, what word did you do (or more realistically, could you do) to allow you to trust God and to keep trusting in him?

 

[VCO]

VCO posted "True Christians will always produce at least some good works."

The logical implication is one is not a Christian if he has no good works implying good works are necessary to being a true Christian (saved)

One does not become a Christian and remain a Christian by doing nothing. VCO's statement implies that. I do not know about kings and their advisors but nowhere did Jesus tell men do nothing to be saved. But to be a Christian one must believe. Does one have to believe BEFORE he can be a kings advisor? To be a Christian one must first repent of his sins. Must one first repent of his sin to be an advisor? To become a Christian one must confess Christ. Can one be a kings advisor without confessing Christ. To become a Christian one must be baptized for remission of sins. Can one be a kings advisor without having his sins remitted?


It's apparent to me that the qualifications to become a Christian differ than the qualifications to being a king's advisor.

If you are going to QUOTE ME, at least have the courtesy to quote it correctly.

A REAL CHRISTIAN WHO IS ONE WHO ALREADY WAS SAVED THE MOMENT HE OR SHE BELIEVED RECEIVING JESUS AS LORD, WHICH MEANS MASTER, WILL ALWAYS PRODUCE OUT OF THAT NEW BORN AGAIN HUMAN SPIRIT SOME GOOD WORKS. GOOD WORKS ARE ONLY THOSE THAT ARE DONE SOLELY BECAUSE WE LOVE FOR OUR LORD, BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US WHEN HE SAVED US. GOOD WORKS ARE THE FRUIT THAT PROVES WE WERE SAVED.

Matthew 7:13-23 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
[SUP]17 [/SUP] "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] "So then, you will know them by their fruits.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
[SUP]23 [/SUP] "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'