SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS!
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As I stated earlier, I have been studying faith off and on for more than thirty years, and the only relation I find between faith and unforgiveness is that your prayers won't get answered if you refuse to forgive, according to Mk 11:22-26.
I still fail to see the relation between, faith and unforgiveness. I don't see the connection at all ma'am.
The only thing I can think of at this time to where they come close is, faith takes hold of and unforgiveness refuses to let it go.
You said, an 'Unforgiving hearts give evidence of counterfeit faith'.
I don't see Mat 6:15 saying any such thing.
What is the difference between faith and counterfeit faith?
I personally don't see scripture saying that we have to repent of our sins in order for one to be saved, but when a person receives the Jesus as lord and confesses Him as such, and believes that God raised Him for our justification on the third day, then all their sins are covered in Jesus' blood, and they are forgiven of everything. But after one is born again, if they have unforgiveness in their heart, they need to repent of, and confess that sin, that they may be forgiven by God so that He doesn't send a tormentor on them.
I know you don't believe that, but it is addressed to the child of God in Matt 18.
Ma'am, you do know that you and all Christian, have at one time or another held a grudge or refused to forgive someone of some offense at one time or another for a short spell, at the very least. Have you ever gotten mad at someone? Did you forgive them of that offense while you were angry? I dare say, not!
Like myself, you have to wait till you cool down some before you forgive.
You need to stop sugar coating the doctrines of the bible and the Christian walk with God. We all slip and sin on occasion, and God will chastise us for what we do, which means we are just as much human as those who don't know Christ.
I still fail to see the relation between, faith and unforgiveness. I don't see the connection at all ma'am.
The only thing I can think of at this time to where they come close is, faith takes hold of and unforgiveness refuses to let it go.
You said, an 'Unforgiving hearts give evidence of counterfeit faith'.
I don't see Mat 6:15 saying any such thing.
What is the difference between faith and counterfeit faith?
I personally don't see scripture saying that we have to repent of our sins in order for one to be saved, but when a person receives the Jesus as lord and confesses Him as such, and believes that God raised Him for our justification on the third day, then all their sins are covered in Jesus' blood, and they are forgiven of everything. But after one is born again, if they have unforgiveness in their heart, they need to repent of, and confess that sin, that they may be forgiven by God so that He doesn't send a tormentor on them.
I know you don't believe that, but it is addressed to the child of God in Matt 18.
Ma'am, you do know that you and all Christian, have at one time or another held a grudge or refused to forgive someone of some offense at one time or another for a short spell, at the very least. Have you ever gotten mad at someone? Did you forgive them of that offense while you were angry? I dare say, not!
Like myself, you have to wait till you cool down some before you forgive.
You need to stop sugar coating the doctrines of the bible and the Christian walk with God. We all slip and sin on occasion, and God will chastise us for what we do, which means we are just as much human as those who don't know Christ.
Oh, I believe the Gospel, and I am glad to have found another person on this forum that believes "man must do something" to be saved, that even "belief" is a righteous work, and I believe if you study Eph 1:13-14 you will find these are already Christians Paul is referring to, men and women that had already "obeyed" the Gospel by not only "Hearing" as you said above, but "believing", "Repenting, turning from their old ways", "Confessing Christ is the Son of God", and "Being Baptized" which is what put them in Eph 1:13-14
So after several flops between "man having to do nothing" and "man having to do something", now you have them all mixed together...
The gift was given to ALL men, man has to do what the Gospel says to (as one of your words attest) "receive" the gift, otherwise ALL men are saved because it does not matter if they do something or not.
So you agree man must "do something" to "receive" the gift... therefore as so many on this forum have been trying to say, "righteous works are required for salvation".
Now all we have to do is agree on what those "righteous works" are.
The gift was given to ALL men, man has to do what the Gospel says to (as one of your words attest) "receive" the gift, otherwise ALL men are saved because it does not matter if they do something or not.
So you agree man must "do something" to "receive" the gift... therefore as so many on this forum have been trying to say, "righteous works are required for salvation".
Now all we have to do is agree on what those "righteous works" are.
T
Semantics. Works refers to doing something to please God, to make one worthy of his goodness. We can't do anything to make Him love us more or love us less. And our good works are like menstrual rags compared to His holiness. Yes, Christ is the one that saves. Salvation is offered to all, but we have to be open to receiving it.
Look Flipper you are the one that is flopping around like a little minnow out of water as my stance has been consistent throughout this entire post and it is you and your heretical false teaching cronies that flip, flop and twist around scriptures to teach your heresy....Keep on believing that man initiates faith, works for his salvation and needs to help Jesus do something that has already been accomplished by Jesus himself.
Jesus done the work and no matter how you twist it and prune it to fit your little banzai tree it will never be correct theology!
The work of man is not needed to receive eternal life as Jesus COMPLETED THE WORK!
Jesus done the work and no matter how you twist it and prune it to fit your little banzai tree it will never be correct theology!
The work of man is not needed to receive eternal life as Jesus COMPLETED THE WORK!
One false assertion, I and a couple of others are teaching heresy? Where is your proof that it is heresy, Who proclaimed it to be heresy?
You made three following assertions that are strawmen.
Where does it say man initates faith. God grants faith to every human being, Man is expected to use it. When we believe it is that person that is doing the believing, no one else, not God.
Works for our salvation. None of us has stated this. We are working through faith which is a requirment of faith. Which is actually a veiled attempt at "works of the law" nonsense which is always in reference to what man cannot do, which Christ did for us, for all men in fact.
And we need to help Jesus to accomplish what He has already done. A double strawman because we are not even discussing what Christ did for mankind, let alone believers. We are discussing how Jesus helps us to be perfected IN Christ, which is our personal salvation.
After 1400 posts you are still swatting at strawmen.
You made three following assertions that are strawmen.
Where does it say man initates faith. God grants faith to every human being, Man is expected to use it. When we believe it is that person that is doing the believing, no one else, not God.
Works for our salvation. None of us has stated this. We are working through faith which is a requirment of faith. Which is actually a veiled attempt at "works of the law" nonsense which is always in reference to what man cannot do, which Christ did for us, for all men in fact.
And we need to help Jesus to accomplish what He has already done. A double strawman because we are not even discussing what Christ did for mankind, let alone believers. We are discussing how Jesus helps us to be perfected IN Christ, which is our personal salvation.
After 1400 posts you are still swatting at strawmen.
I think it is quite funny considering the discussion. By definitiion any veiw that is different from another, it is a heresy of the other view. But in this case, we have a single person declaring another view heresy against his own view. A view that is mere opinion of his interpretation of scripture. None of you have used any corroborating evidence that could be presented as factual of what scripture actually means. If it is mere opinion, or a single interpretation it really has no effect of meaning of being against the Gospel of Christ. Only the Holy Spirit can declare a teaching heretical to His own which has been done repeatedly throughout history. The Holy Spirit working through the Body has declared many teachings to be false, heretical.
Which is why I asked who declared Christ's Gospel as a heresy?
Personnally it does not bother me at all, since it has no effect upon anything.
I call it your hot air.
Agreed.
Like my irrefutable demonstration of the Greek meaning of "justification,"
as well as Ro 3:22-24, 5:9, in posts #1332 and #1333, here . . .
The only empty assertions are your own, starting with your contra-NT meaning of "justification."
It's time for the hot air to stop, and to end your arguing about your contra-NT view.
You're wasting your time and ours here.
Agreed.
Like my irrefutable demonstration of the Greek meaning of "justification,"
as well as Ro 3:22-24, 5:9, in posts #1332 and #1333, here . . .
The only empty assertions are your own, starting with your contra-NT meaning of "justification."
It's time for the hot air to stop, and to end your arguing about your contra-NT view.
You're wasting your time and ours here.
Agreed, my specific statements are not in Scripture.
They are an understanding of why an unforgiving heart bars God's forgiveness of your own sin,
which is salvation (Lk 1:77), as in one's understanding of the Trinity, although it also
is not specifically stated.
An unforgiving heart which claims faith gives evidence of counterfeit faith, which cannot save.
They are an understanding of why an unforgiving heart bars God's forgiveness of your own sin,
which is salvation (Lk 1:77), as in one's understanding of the Trinity, although it also
is not specifically stated.
An unforgiving heart which claims faith gives evidence of counterfeit faith, which cannot save.
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You are undoubtedly an expert in blather, empty assertions and vacuousness.
Frankly the gospel you espouse has not certain hope of eternal life. It cannot because it does not believe that eternal life is likely to be achieved. It cannot quantify the minimum standard necessary to achieve eternal life. You are by default exchanging the glorious hope of Christ for the vain despair on mans wisdom.
I will not deny you the right to believe what you will about eternal life and the blood of Christ. You should however not attempt to convince others of your error.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Frankly the gospel you espouse has not certain hope of eternal life. It cannot because it does not believe that eternal life is likely to be achieved. It cannot quantify the minimum standard necessary to achieve eternal life. You are by default exchanging the glorious hope of Christ for the vain despair on mans wisdom.
I will not deny you the right to believe what you will about eternal life and the blood of Christ. You should however not attempt to convince others of your error.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Has much more hope than yours. I don't see any hope when it does not even meet the criteria of scripture. As to the faith, and theology, it has been the teaching of the Church since the very beginning. The Holy Spirit, as He has promised, has guarded His Church and has preserved the Gospel of Christ from the beginning. It has never changed. But knowing that does not guarantee one is saved. This is where you get mixed up in discussing a doctrine. An atheist could do the same thing, it is that he does not believe it.
You have basically a personal opinion of what scripture might/could mean, nothing factual, nothing that is being preserved. For the most part, your interpretation dies with you as it does for most sola scripturists. One of the most telling of statements is that when a sola scripturist ask the question, "how can you know what I believe"? If one calls himself a Christian, that person should be able to explain the doctrines of the Gospel the very same way the early Church understood them and be able to speak for every other Christian since Pentecost. There should be no difference. But the statement shows without doubt that whatever that person is saying, is false, since only he, maybe a few other, could relate to, which obviously is not the Gospel of Christ from the beginning, given ONCE.
Man in the sola scripturist milieu has developed untold theories, notions, doctrines of man's immagination all from scripture. It should be quite obvious that none of them are correct. Which is why all of you are trying to explain your interpretations trying to see who might have the better one. It is the epitome of playing is Satan's playground and dividing up a text, to suite the liking of each interpreter.
You certainly are welcome to the confusion, chaos, and division.
Christ said to proclaim HIS word throughout the world. He never stated that one should proclaim his personal interpretation of His Gospel. Is that in scripture?
You have basically a personal opinion of what scripture might/could mean, nothing factual, nothing that is being preserved. For the most part, your interpretation dies with you as it does for most sola scripturists. One of the most telling of statements is that when a sola scripturist ask the question, "how can you know what I believe"? If one calls himself a Christian, that person should be able to explain the doctrines of the Gospel the very same way the early Church understood them and be able to speak for every other Christian since Pentecost. There should be no difference. But the statement shows without doubt that whatever that person is saying, is false, since only he, maybe a few other, could relate to, which obviously is not the Gospel of Christ from the beginning, given ONCE.
Man in the sola scripturist milieu has developed untold theories, notions, doctrines of man's immagination all from scripture. It should be quite obvious that none of them are correct. Which is why all of you are trying to explain your interpretations trying to see who might have the better one. It is the epitome of playing is Satan's playground and dividing up a text, to suite the liking of each interpreter.
You certainly are welcome to the confusion, chaos, and division.
Christ said to proclaim HIS word throughout the world. He never stated that one should proclaim his personal interpretation of His Gospel. Is that in scripture?
Again more vacuous blather. If you have not the witness of the Holy Spirit with your spirit that you are Christ's you are not Christ's.
This I testify before all men that Christ has saved me, not is going to save me but has saved me. The great transaction is done I'm sealed unto the day of redemption ready to be presented before the throne spotless in Christ. If I die and when I die I go to be with Christ Who shed His blood to save me from my sins.
All the works I can do with all my strength can not atone or justify even one tiny sin against the Holy One Who inhabits eternity.
Jesus said whosoever believeth in Me shall not see death but shall pass from death unto eternal life. End of story.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
This I testify before all men that Christ has saved me, not is going to save me but has saved me. The great transaction is done I'm sealed unto the day of redemption ready to be presented before the throne spotless in Christ. If I die and when I die I go to be with Christ Who shed His blood to save me from my sins.
All the works I can do with all my strength can not atone or justify even one tiny sin against the Holy One Who inhabits eternity.
Jesus said whosoever believeth in Me shall not see death but shall pass from death unto eternal life. End of story.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
From the heart comes what we speak so when i reffer to clean the insude of the cup before God ,is in order that the heart be circumcised to be , ready to move even more forward , what i mean is to do this that we may all gather so at the end of the harvest , We can all sit down and feast together with Our Lord Jesus in whom we have all our hopes in....
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I'm going to take a stab at this, but is this something you might be referring to?
1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
If a child of God has unforgiveness in their heart toward their brother, they in effect still hate that person, whom God calls a murderer. And because they abide still, in death, they do not have Christ abiding in them, and therefore they have no eternal life abiding in them.
Is it because of scripture verses, like the one above, that you say their faith in Christ is a counterfeit faith?
1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
If a child of God has unforgiveness in their heart toward their brother, they in effect still hate that person, whom God calls a murderer. And because they abide still, in death, they do not have Christ abiding in them, and therefore they have no eternal life abiding in them.
Is it because of scripture verses, like the one above, that you say their faith in Christ is a counterfeit faith?
Thanks!
It is because both unforgiveness and unbelief have the same eternal result.
God's forgiveness of sin is salvation (Lk 1:77).
God withholds forgiveness of sin for those who do not forgive.
And God's withholding of forgiveness bars from salvation.
Likewise, salvation is by faith.
And likewise, God withholds salvation for those who do not believe.
So both those who do not forgive, and those who do not believe are not saved.
And since faith is the only basis of all salvation,
any event that bars from salvation would give evidence of counterfeit faith/unbelief.
Your thoughts?
It is because both unforgiveness and unbelief have the same eternal result.
God's forgiveness of sin is salvation (Lk 1:77).
God withholds forgiveness of sin for those who do not forgive.
And God's withholding of forgiveness bars from salvation.
Likewise, salvation is by faith.
And likewise, God withholds salvation for those who do not believe.
So both those who do not forgive, and those who do not believe are not saved.
And since faith is the only basis of all salvation,
any event that bars from salvation would give evidence of counterfeit faith/unbelief.
Your thoughts?
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