SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS!

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Dec 12, 2013
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One false assertion, I and a couple of others are teaching heresy? Where is your proof that it is heresy, Who proclaimed it to be heresy?

You made three following assertions that are strawmen.
Where does it say man initates faith.
God grants faith to every human being, Man is expected to use it. When we believe it is that person that is doing the believing, no one else, not God.
Works for our salvation. None of us has stated this. We are working through faith which is a requirment of faith. Which is actually a veiled attempt at "works of the law" nonsense which is always in reference to what man cannot do, which Christ did for us, for all men in fact.
And we need to help Jesus to accomplish what He has already done. A double strawman because we are not even discussing what Christ did for mankind, let alone believers. We are discussing how Jesus helps us to be perfected IN Christ, which is our personal salvation.
After 1400 posts you are still swatting at strawmen.
First thing you should do is make sure you attribute the quote to the right person as your (cousin) Flipper was the one who made the quote "MAN initiates faith"

TO TEACH FAITH PLUS WORKS FOR SALVATION IS HERESY ACCORDING TO THE BOOK OF GALATIANS, ROMANS, EPHESIANS, ETC.

It is not I that is building straw man as you and your cousins have stated numerous times that you have to have works plus faith or your not saved.....

Dude, how can you even post what you posted in light of all of the arguing you have done against totally salvation based upon the completed work of Jesus based upon FAITH ALONE.
 
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Both sides should abstain from using the term 'heresy'.
It is not helpful, and just causes dissension.
(It's nearly impossible to not be offended when what you believe is called heresy by another)
Unless you are mature, know what you believe is right, know that faith plus works for salvation IS CALLED HERESY and are not easily offended.....It does not Offend me when somebody makes such statements about what I believe....

We as the children of God should not be so easily offended because if we cannot take a little heat because of what we believe how can we expect to fully lay our life down for the cause......! If they will kill the MASTER.......
 
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Again more vacuous blather. If you have not the witness of the Holy Spirit with your spirit that you are Christ's you are not Christ's.

This I testify before all men that Christ has saved me, not is going to save me but has saved me. The great transaction is done I'm sealed unto the day of redemption ready to be presented before the throne spotless in Christ. If I die and when I die I go to be with Christ Who shed His blood to save me from my sins.

All the works I can do with all my strength can not atone or justify even one tiny sin against the Holy One Who inhabits eternity.

Jesus said whosoever believeth in Me shall not see death but shall pass from death unto eternal life. End of story.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
No doubt and I agree as Salvation and Justification are a present reality to the true believer and cannot be improved upon by our works.....AMEN!
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
No doubt and I agree as Salvation and Justification are a present reality to the true believer and cannot be improved upon by our works.....AMEN!
You are a big sick joke; if you think God can not do better for you than what He has so far done in you. God is always working on us, we are presently continually being renewed in the image of God. Jesus will come back with the complete sal. package . You aren't seen nothin yet man. We will be perfectly sin less and have anew body like Jesus'. COME ON MAN, get with it! Love hoffco
 
Mar 28, 2014
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Look Flipper you are the one that is flopping around like a little minnow out of water as my stance has been consistent throughout this entire post and it is you and your heretical false teaching cronies that flip, flop and twist around scriptures to teach your heresy....Keep on believing that man initiates faith, works for his salvation and needs to help Jesus do something that has already been accomplished by Jesus himself.

Jesus done the work and no matter how you twist it and prune it to fit your little banzai tree it will never be correct theology!

The work of man is not needed to receive eternal life as Jesus COMPLETED THE WORK!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why do you not obey the words of God? What do you think faith is ? If you believe in Christ or have the faith of Christ you will obey him.

Examine this chapter of scripture and take note because you are a teacher and you are responsible for what you teach God's children.
[h=3]James 2[/h]King James Version (KJV)

2 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
[SUP]8 [/SUP]If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Let God be true
Peace to you my brother and God bless you in wisdom and understanding.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it,
that is, a righteousness that is by faith;
but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law.
Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works.
They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written,
"Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."

(Romans 9:30-33)
 
Mar 28, 2014
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I haven't said that at all and I suggest you put your glasses on and read every post I have made in CC before you start mouthing without all the facts mi amigo....

Now, put your peeps on and go read every post that I have had made and then come back and make a correct judgment call about what I believe.....
---------------------------------
Are you denying these are your words..
The only person that you have proven wrong is yourself based upon the following...

1. Scripture twisted out of context
2. Scripture twisted out of context
3. Scripture twisted out of context

FAITH------>produces works
Works------>do not, cannot save as they are evidence OF SALVATION

Why is that so hard for you to understand?

Nobody is teaching that once saved you can live any way you want.....
Because of BIBLICAL salvation...we want to and can serve God acceptably which includes KEEPING the word of God which HAS NO BEARING ON OUR SALVATION!

If those words are not yours then I apologise but if they are will you listen to me for just one minute?
 
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Again more vacuous blather. If you have not the witness of the Holy Spirit with your spirit that you are Christ's you are not Christ's.

This I testify before all men that Christ has saved me, not is going to save me but has saved me. The great transaction is done I'm sealed unto the day of redemption ready to be presented before the throne spotless in Christ. If I die and when I die I go to be with Christ Who shed His blood to save me from my sins.

All the works I can do with all my strength can not atone or justify even one tiny sin against the Holy One Who inhabits eternity.

Jesus said whosoever believeth in Me shall not see death but shall pass from death unto eternal life. End of story.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Brother please study the scripture not just a verse here and there

John
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

[SUP]29 [/SUP]And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


heareth and believeth is not a by the way hearing but hearing and obeying God... believeth is not some fairy tale belief but a confident trust in God. So those who trust and obey will recieve the promise . But you must trust and obey him to be raise up to eternal life in the last day .
 
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It is called faith....which is a spiritual GIFT from God and applied under several words such as believe, acknowledge, trust, receive and any other word of such caliber! Jesus was the one that completed the works, kept the law, became sin for us, sacrificed himself for us, offered his blood before the mercy seat for us, intercedes for us and claims us before the Heavenly Father!
----------------------------------------------
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17[/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
 
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No doubt and I agree as Salvation and Justification are a present reality to the true believer and cannot be improved upon by our works.....AMEN!
---------------------------

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
 
A

Avalona22

Guest
Love before service for sure, but service (works) is a child of love but if works are devoid of love then you might as well be working for the devil, who gives a shit. Our good works must be born of genuine love and virtue only then are they sincere. I think that's where the line is drawn, in the sincerity of it, and we know God through truth, beauty, and goodness. Have you read The URANTIA Book or heard of Gabriel of Urantia, spiritual leader and activist? He knows the difference between Christianity and true spirituality, he for sure walks his talk.
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
1,960
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First thing you should do is make sure you attribute the quote to the right person as your (cousin) Flipper was the one who made the quote "MAN initiates faith"

TO TEACH FAITH PLUS WORKS FOR SALVATION IS HERESY ACCORDING TO THE BOOK OF GALATIANS, ROMANS, EPHESIANS, ETC.

It is not I that is building straw man as you and your cousins have stated numerous times that you have to have works plus faith or your not saved.....

Dude, how can you even post what you posted in light of all of the arguing you have done against totally salvation based upon the completed work of Jesus based upon FAITH ALONE.
Because no one has ever argued faith plus works, or being saved by works. These are your misrepresentations, of both what we have stated, and what scripture states.
Your personal salvation has nothing directly to do with the completed work of Jesus, and our personal salvation is NOT based on faith alone.

You have espoused several false teachings relative to scripture and have not yet shown that we are actually saved by faith only, nor that one is instantly saved, finitely, in one moment of faith in time. No text has used past tense believe for salvation. In every citation you presented, it is always, present tense, active and continuing.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,714
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For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.


(Romans 11:30-32)

this is no call to be disobedient, even less is it an argument that the mercy shown to us is due to our obedience.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
[h=2]The Inadequate Historical Precedent for
“Once Saved, Always Saved”[/h]
Steve Witzki
John Jefferson Davis wrote an article titled: “The Perseverance of the Saints: A History of the Doctrine” [Journal of Evangelical Theological Society 34:2 (June 1991)]. Three things make this article of great value. First, it was written by a well-known and highly respected Calvinist theologian. Second, it covers the key people and church groups on the topic. Third, it demonstrates that “once saved, always saved” or unconditional eternal security was not a doctrine that was taught by the ancient church, nor for that manner, by any well-known theologian before John Calvin. This doctrine is, in fact, completely foreign in the history of Christianity.

While the first extensive discussion of the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints is found in Augustine’s Treatise on the Gift of Perseverance, written around A. D. 429, Augustine believed it was possible to experience the justifying grace of God and yet not persevere to the end. Augustine did believe God’s elect would certainly persevere to the end, but he denied that a person could know they were in the elect and he also warned it was possible to be justified but not among the elect. Not until Calvin was unconditional election, permanent regeneration, and certitude of final perseverance all connected.

James Akin, a Catholic theologian, said in a debate with Calvinist theologian James White that no one before Calvin taught that predestination to grace automatically entails predestination to glory. [TABLE="align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]You can check that out for yourself. I did. I searched multiple books and called half a dozen Calvinist seminaries, talking to their systematic theology and church history professors, and no one could name a person before Calvin who taught this thesis. They all said Calvin was the first. I even called John Jefferson Davis, a scholar who published an article in the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society on the history of this doctrine, a man who is himself a Calvinist, but who has researched the history of this doctrine thoroughly, and he said Calvin was the first to teach it.

This poses a problem even for those who claim that they take their teachings exclusively from Scripture, namely, "How could a doctrine this important--if true--remain completely undiscovered for the first 1500 years of Church history and, if Jesus comes back any time soon, for three quearters of all of Church history?"

Other important doctrines have been known all through Christian history. Christians always knew, even when heretics denied it,that Jesus Christ was God. Christians always knew, even when heretics denied it, that Jesus Christ is fully man as well as fully God. And Christians always knew, even when heretics denied it, that they were saved purely by God's grace.

So when it turns out that Christians never knew that true Christians can never fall away, and then suddenly 1500 years later someone starts claiming it, one has to ask who is conveying the true teaching of the apostles and who is teaching the heresy “Are All True Christians Predestined to Persevere?”
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Akin’s remarks are accurate and problematic for Calvinist scholars. Furthermore, the Calvinist does not fare any better when one looks even more deeply into what the early Christians believed about this issue. In 1998, Hendrickson Publishers printed A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers. Under the topic heading of “Salvation,” we find the question, “Can those who are saved ever be lost?” After several Scriptural passages are quoted [2 Chron 15:2; Ezek 33:12; Matt 10:22; Luke 9:62; 2 Tim 2:12; Heb 10:26; 2 Pet 2:20-21], five pages of quotes are given from the writings of early Christian leaders. These quotes give evidence that the early church did not believe in “once saved, always saved.” They taught that it was possible for a genuine believer to reject God and wind up eternally separated from God in hell [pp. 586-591].

David Bercot, editor of this dictionary, also wrote a provocative book called, Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up? It takes today’s Evangelical Church, both its lifestyle and teaching, and looks at it in the light of early Christian teaching. It is an interesting book that comes from someone who has read through the entire works of the Ante-Nicene Fathers more than once. He writes, [TABLE="align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]Since the early Christians believed that our continued faith and obedience are necessary for salvation, it naturally follows that they believed that a “saved” person could still end up being lost. For example, Irenaeus, the pupil of Polycarp, wrote, “Christ will not die again on behalf of those who now commit sin because death shall no more have dominion over Him…. Therefore we should not be puffed up…. But we should beware lest somehow, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins but rather be shut out from His kingdom” (Heb. 6:4-6) [p. 65].
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
What the Christian Church historically believed about the security of the believer is not the ultimate test for determining our stance on this issue today, but the lack of historical precedent should serve as a warning. Before John Calvin, the teaching of unconditional eternal security was not a doctrine that was taught by the universal church through the centuries. Therefore, while the Scriptures are the ultimate test for truth on this issue, “once saved, always saved” teachers need to acknowledge that their doctrine is historically an anomaly. Furthermore, the brand of “once saved, always saved” teaching that tells people that they can stop believing and still be on their way to heaven (but with less rewards) is nowhere to be found in historic Christianity prior to the twentieth century.



 
Dec 12, 2013
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You are a big sick joke; if you think God can not do better for you than what He has so far done in you. God is always working on us, we are presently continually being renewed in the image of God. Jesus will come back with the complete sal. package . You aren't seen nothin yet man. We will be perfectly sin less and have anew body like Jesus'. COME ON MAN, get with it! Love hoffco
Love to all Hoffco? Would that include the mouthy statement bolded above?....You miss the point of what I said! And yes I understand the end result of my salvation in a glorified body....To quote you...COME ON MAN, GET WITH IT and to ADD....OPEN YOUR EYES DUDE AND WAKE UP TO THE BIBLE!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Because no one has ever argued faith plus works, or being saved by works. These are your misrepresentations, of both what we have stated, and what scripture states.
Your personal salvation has nothing directly to do with the completed work of Jesus, and our personal salvation is NOT based on faith alone.

You have espoused several false teachings relative to scripture and have not yet shown that we are actually saved by faith only, nor that one is instantly saved, finitely, in one moment of faith in time. No text has used past tense believe for salvation. In every citation you presented, it is always, present tense, active and continuing.
You claim to know Greek...go study the AORIST TENSE VERB as applied unto John 3:16 and then pay particular note the the bolded in your statement as both comments are false and contrary to the bible as...

1. My salvation is based entirely upon the completed work of Christ
2. My salvation is based upon biblical belief into NUMBER 1

You really should get on your knees and get right and trust into the SAVING FAITH OF JESUS and TRUST HIM instead of your works and misrepresentations of scripture!
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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The Inadequate Historical Precedent for
“Once Saved, Always Saved”


Steve Witzki
John Jefferson Davis wrote an article titled: “The Perseverance of the Saints: A History of the Doctrine” [Journal of Evangelical Theological Society 34:2 (June 1991)]. Three things make this article of great value. First, it was written by a well-known and highly respected Calvinist theologian. Second, it covers the key people and church groups on the topic. Third, it demonstrates that “once saved, always saved” or unconditional eternal security was not a doctrine that was taught by the ancient church, nor for that manner, by any well-known theologian before John Calvin. This doctrine is, in fact, completely foreign in the history of Christianity.

While the first extensive discussion of the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints is found in Augustine’s Treatise on the Gift of Perseverance, written around A. D. 429, Augustine believed it was possible to experience the justifying grace of God and yet not persevere to the end. Augustine did believe God’s elect would certainly persevere to the end, but he denied that a person could know they were in the elect and he also warned it was possible to be justified but not among the elect. Not until Calvin was unconditional election, permanent regeneration, and certitude of final perseverance all connected.

James Akin, a Catholic theologian, said in a debate with Calvinist theologian James White that no one before Calvin taught that predestination to grace automatically entails predestination to glory. [TABLE="align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]You can check that out for yourself. I did. I searched multiple books and called half a dozen Calvinist seminaries, talking to their systematic theology and church history professors, and no one could name a person before Calvin who taught this thesis. They all said Calvin was the first. I even called John Jefferson Davis, a scholar who published an article in the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society on the history of this doctrine, a man who is himself a Calvinist, but who has researched the history of this doctrine thoroughly, and he said Calvin was the first to teach it.

This poses a problem even for those who claim that they take their teachings exclusively from Scripture, namely, "How could a doctrine this important--if true--remain completely undiscovered for the first 1500 years of Church history and, if Jesus comes back any time soon, for three quearters of all of Church history?"

Other important doctrines have been known all through Christian history. Christians always knew, even when heretics denied it,that Jesus Christ was God. Christians always knew, even when heretics denied it, that Jesus Christ is fully man as well as fully God. And Christians always knew, even when heretics denied it, that they were saved purely by God's grace.

So when it turns out that Christians never knew that true Christians can never fall away, and then suddenly 1500 years later someone starts claiming it, one has to ask who is conveying the true teaching of the apostles and who is teaching the heresy “Are All True Christians Predestined to Persevere?”
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Akin’s remarks are accurate and problematic for Calvinist scholars. Furthermore, the Calvinist does not fare any better when one looks even more deeply into what the early Christians believed about this issue. In 1998, Hendrickson Publishers printed A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers. Under the topic heading of “Salvation,” we find the question, “Can those who are saved ever be lost?” After several Scriptural passages are quoted [2 Chron 15:2; Ezek 33:12; Matt 10:22; Luke 9:62; 2 Tim 2:12; Heb 10:26; 2 Pet 2:20-21], five pages of quotes are given from the writings of early Christian leaders. These quotes give evidence that the early church did not believe in “once saved, always saved.” They taught that it was possible for a genuine believer to reject God and wind up eternally separated from God in hell [pp. 586-591].

David Bercot, editor of this dictionary, also wrote a provocative book called, Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up? It takes today’s Evangelical Church, both its lifestyle and teaching, and looks at it in the light of early Christian teaching. It is an interesting book that comes from someone who has read through the entire works of the Ante-Nicene Fathers more than once. He writes, [TABLE="align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]Since the early Christians believed that our continued faith and obedience are necessary for salvation, it naturally follows that they believed that a “saved” person could still end up being lost. For example, Irenaeus, the pupil of Polycarp, wrote, “Christ will not die again on behalf of those who now commit sin because death shall no more have dominion over Him…. Therefore we should not be puffed up…. But we should beware lest somehow, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins but rather be shut out from His kingdom” (Heb. 6:4-6) [p. 65].
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
What the Christian Church historically believed about the security of the believer is not the ultimate test for determining our stance on this issue today, but the lack of historical precedent should serve as a warning. Before John Calvin, the teaching of unconditional eternal security was not a doctrine that was taught by the universal church through the centuries. Therefore, while the Scriptures are the ultimate test for truth on this issue, “once saved, always saved” teachers need to acknowledge that their doctrine is historically an anomaly. Furthermore, the brand of “once saved, always saved” teaching that tells people that they can stop believing and still be on their way to heaven (but with less rewards) is nowhere to be found in historic Christianity prior to the twentieth century.



This proves nothing to me as I base my beliefs on what the scriptures teach and maybe one day before it is too late you will understand that it is the Faith of Jesus that saves us based upon his completed work and the spirit that we have that has been born of God does not sin, cannot loose it's salvation and is eternally secure in Christ and his faith!
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
If the Apostles and those who followed in the early church did not teach once saved, always saved for about 1500 years, but taught one can loose salvation. Why should we now believe it just because a man ( Calvin ) started this movement 1500 years later ? Should we also follow the Mormon teaching that you must earn salvation, instead of it being a free gift ?

There is a reason these things were not taught for the longest time during the early church. It is because all the deception that is taking place in the church. The truth is in the original teaching of doctrine, not the revised versions that are being taught.

Love to all Hoffco? Would that include the mouthy statement bolded above?....You miss the point of what I said! And yes I understand the end result of my salvation in a glorified body....To quote you...COME ON MAN, GET WITH IT and to ADD....OPEN YOUR EYES DUDE AND WAKE UP TO THE BIBLE!
 
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---------------------------

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
So Abraham wasn't saved when God called him out of Ur, or before making it into the land past numerous violent Kings, or when?

Abraham HAD FAITH BEFORE CIRCUMCISION and the posts that you use to try and teach works for salvation have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ACT OF BEING SAVED.....
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
I believe in what Jesus and the Apostles taught, not what Calvin taught.

This proves nothing to me as I base my beliefs on what the scriptures teach and maybe one day before it is too late you will understand that it is the Faith of Jesus that saves us based upon his completed work and the spirit that we have that has been born of God does not sin, cannot loose it's salvation and is eternally secure in Christ and his faith!