SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS!

[gusstanthony]

It's not salvation from "sin" that needs to be addressed. "Sin" is a relative term with varied meanings from time to time and condition to condition. We don't need to be saved from "sin" anywhere near as much as we need to be saved from ourselves.
What's needed is an approach to the spiritual dimension of our being within the Christian context that elevates and ennobles us through divine rapport. Nitpicking about "faith" and "works" is not the answer.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not when the Apostles or the early church that followed from their teachings did not teach one could not loose salvation for 1500 years, but taught the opposite.

Thats ok. There were false apostles during the start of the church teaching one could lose salvation. Paul wrote half the NT fighting their perversion of the gospel.

So since they were there during the writing of scripture. it does not suprise me at all they would still be there after.

The jews fought the truth, and so many fought it with them. It went so far as to cause the roman church to enforce its legalistic works based gospel on the known world.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I guess Peter, Paul, and James were false apostles because that is what they taught. I don't think so... Oh yeah that would make Jesus a false prophet to because He taught some would fall away, and would not do good works so they would get cast out as well....I would not call my Lord and Savior a false prophet !!!

Thats ok. There were false apostles during the start of the church teaching one could lose salvation. Paul wrote half the NT fighting their perversion of the gospel.

So since they were there during the writing of scripture. it does not suprise me at all they would still be there after.

The jews fought the truth, and so many fought it with them. It went so far as to cause the roman church to enforce its legalistic works based gospel on the known world.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I guess Peter, Paul, and James were false apostles because that is what they taught.

They did not teach that, They taught quite the opposite. They faught that, What do you think the jews taught? It is the foundation of judaism, that salvation can be lost and must be earned.

I don't think so... Oh yeah that would make Jesus a false prophet to because He taught some would fall away, and would not do good works so they would get cast out as well....I would not call my Lord and Savior a false prophet !!!

No.

Jesus taught that some would be fakes and frauds, Impostors. Illegitament and not true children. And warned us about them.

Not that these people were saved, but that they heard the word of truth, and did not believe, and fell away from that truth, because th seed of faith did not take hold.

But again, If you want to earn your salvation. good luck

 

[Cassian]

If you don't have works, then you aren't in the VINE in the 1st place, no? Works are the fruit of the VINE.
But seriously, is 'works' the problem with our culture,or disbelief?

We are talking semantics, but when it comes down to it, Believers will always be the ones doing the good, and the wolves will be sinning and trying to drag others down.

It is not sematics. The fact is those who lose faith are NO LONGER BELEIVERS, They have become unbelievers, so your last statement is true. Believers by definition are doing good. when we stop doing good, one is NO LONGER A BELIEVER. Say that a couple of times and it might sink in.

 

[Cassian]

OSAS is a new phrase, but is an ever-present doctrine throughout Christian history.
John Calvin was not the one who even coined the phrase, nor did he invent the doctrine.
Stop giving a man credit for God's work, lol.

The 'perseverance of the saints' is present in many ancient writings from the Church fathers.


Also, it is present in Scripture, which is far more powerful and convicting than the words of mere men.

Yes, it is in the Church Fathers, but you will never find that it means that one cannot lose faith. The responsibility of the perseverance of the saints is on the believer, not God predetinating one to salvation which is the meaning of it in the Reformed view. You are correct, Calvin did not coin the word, it came much later.
You will not find Calvin's meaning in scripture either. The view is actually antithetical to scripture and more to the purpose of why God created man. It denies the true God/man relationship for which man was created.

 

[Cassian]

I guess Peter, Paul, and James were false apostles because that is what they taught. I don't think so... Oh yeah that would make Jesus a false prophet to because He taught some would fall away, and would not do good works so they would get cast out as well....I would not call my Lord and Savior a false prophet !!!

You have just exposed one of several tests of a false teacher. They must either deny the Truth, ignore the Truth, or redefine it, or demonize it. In any case, as long as Truth exists, their false teachings cannot stand.

 

[Hoffco]

For the most part, God always joins faith and works, works of faith, labor of love; But when it is faith in Jesus for forgiveness, as in Justification begun, it is by grace then faith alone, trusting in Jesus for the righteousness of God. We can not add anything to Jesus' perfect righteousness. But , when we talk of our righteousness it must reflect our own good works, done by us in this body of flesh,"the life which I now live in the flesh,body" by the power of the Holy Spirit and from our pure heart. We must know, state it clearly, from what view point we are coming from. Then as we grow in knowledge and grace ,faith and works, we will begin to be justified by our good works, but never perfectly. Please "rightly divide" or relate the whole Bible teaching. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[Apostol2013]

So I agree that you cannot earn salvation , it is a gift but this gift is amnesty o the new kingdom where corruption cannot seep each one is given a legit opportunity to be saved but in order for this to happen they must be born of the Spirit not just receive the calling but be born of the spirit and the word further states that one can be deceived even the elect and can fall away as a result of this lack of truth where it leaves a room for iniquity to run a muck and cause disorder , the danger of saying once saved hallways saved is that it promotes slothfullness even to say a not born again at all christian once saved hallways saved is a distorted doctrine and a false one also known as a heresy and we must be care full of not perceiving in our own fashion but only as sound doctrine has taught us we must be open and must judge everything using scripture to discern whetrpher or not it is of Christ not as we perceive in the fullness of the spirit varying a full and properly balanced gospel in Christ

They did not teach that, They taught quite the opposite. They faught that, What do you think the jews taught? It is the foundation of judaism, that salvation can be lost and must be earned.



No.

Jesus taught that some would be fakes and frauds, Impostors. Illegitament and not true children. And warned us about them.

Not that these people were saved, but that they heard the word of truth, and did not believe, and fell away from that truth, because th seed of faith did not take hold.

But again, If you want to earn your salvation. good luck

 

[royalscot]

the law of the land, is the governing body of that land(that's to all nations.) ie break, there laws and you end in, there punishment. to keep it short.
we know two nations , that did entered the most holy place(the tent). ie we know of an other copy, of the old testament went out.(to keep it short)
the danger is this, fruit of the spirit, if, thinking like a man, we would come close, to how, we act, in other peoples company.(I don't know, how else to phrase it). with different class of people, (as rich to poor class, ie the titanic, had a third class on board and this was 1912)for example, we have different fathers ,different schools etc , who tried to teach us the best way forward, in this life, as they saw best.(to keep it sort)so, we know human can change the law of there land. but to say that god cant save anyone, that is lost, or to saying, god cant finishing what he started.( shows the fruit we have in believing in holy spirit,)this is basic teachings but takes a life time learning it.
these 3 things remain, love , hope etc.
life on earth ,
(for example)every human ,must judge, when to jump, the river, or swim it or take the boat, or walk over the bridge. and to sum this fruit up, I would say, learn by your mistakes, because you did this when, you were young to learn how to walk. gravity holds us, to the earth for a reason.. again basic teachings.

seems, basic understanding is missing, in some peoples in this forum. the holy spirit teaches all, at there level of understanding, not your understanding. when we come to some of this understanding ,you will understand, how the lions and lambs can sleep side by side.

 

[notuptome]

It is not sematics. The fact is those who lose faith are NO LONGER BELEIVERS, They have become unbelievers, so your last statement is true. Believers by definition are doing good. when we stop doing good, one is NO LONGER A BELIEVER. Say that a couple of times and it might sink in.

This nothing but the same old legalism over and over again. Those who have been changed by the Holy Spirit cannot ever lose their faith. those who do not know the presence of the Holy Spirit cannot ever do enough to merit eternal life.

Grace is superior to all of mans fanciful doctrines of how good he is and how much he serves God. Salvation is not about but about Jesus Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

You have just exposed one of several tests of a false teacher. They must either deny the Truth, ignore the Truth, or redefine it, or demonize it. In any case, as long as Truth exists, their false teachings cannot stand.

As judgmental as you are I would caution against taking your own test. The Lord said by what standard you measure others you will also be measured.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Jabberjaw]

As judgmental as you are I would caution against taking your own test. The Lord said by what standard you measure others you will also be measured.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

He also said through Paul to mark them that are contrary to the doctrine of Christ :

Romans 16:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

 

[royalscot]

strange, this is not a game.(to true believer) see cowboys branded cattle, to say they are my cows. nations give passports. yet what IQ do you need to get a passport. if god never loved the world, why steel, what someone else s believes or what he owns. (food for thought).

or was pludder,,there motive, then they found ,its fortold in someone else s book, this would happen (again food for thought)

 

[notuptome]

He also said through Paul to mark them that are contrary to the doctrine of Christ :

Romans 16:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Yet Christ Himself said that He would divide father from son and mother from daughter. Christ will divide the sheep from the goats. God has divided the light from the darkness.

Sound doctrine does not offend any other parts of scripture but promotes perfect harmony in all the scriptures. Now if you are done tossing about vacuous accusations tell me what works must a man work to be saved?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Cassian]

This nothing but the same old legalism over and over again. Those who have been changed by the Holy Spirit cannot ever lose their faith. those who do not know the presence of the Holy Spirit cannot ever do enough to merit eternal life.

Grace is superior to all of mans fanciful doctrines of how good he is and how much he serves God. Salvation is not about but about Jesus Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You keep saying that but cannot produce any evidence from scripture that supports it.

The ONLY theological system that supports it is the Reformed view whose foundation is predestination. But predestination as understood in the Reformed faith is antithetical to scripture, not only that it is a pagan concept dressed up in scriptural words. It came to light with Calvin. I have heard several who state that they are one point or two point Calvinists. Which is theologically impossible. You cannot fit any of the points of TULIP in scripture isolated from its foundation which is predestination as it is defined and understood in the Reformed theology.

Your view on this aspect of salvation is unscriptural and can be shown from scripture and history.

 

[dcontroversal]

We must live with the consequences of our sins, but the consequences don't last forever. After the Lord disciplines us for a sin, he forgives us. If you stop sinning, there will come a day that you no longer have to fear the Lord's discipline. That is why the Lord commanded us to stop sinning. He wanted us to be happy.

I would agree with this as the discipline brings the peaceable fruits of righteousness....

 

[dcontroversal]

No it does not, a born again saved person still sins but can be forgiven of them. Just cause you sin does not mean you loose salvation every time you sin. One can turn and serve satan in the way they walk, and turn and reject the Holy Spirit guidance and deny Jesus as Lord and Savior. The Apostles and early church that followed them taught this.

So only some sins can cause you to loose your salvation.....can you list which sins as the three you listed in the bolded are all sins...so which grievous sins can cause us to loose our salvation...?

 

[dcontroversal]

If you don't have works, then you aren't in the VINE in the 1st place, no? Works are the fruit of the VINE.
But seriously, is 'works' the problem with our culture,or disbelief?

We are talking semantics, but when it comes down to it, Believers will always be the ones doing the good, and the wolves will be sinning and trying to drag others down.

I agree with this and will add....

I have consistently stated throughout that a saved child of God will serve God and do what is required as a doulos of Christ should....but works do not save us or keep us saved and what most fail to see is the simple fact that it is Jesus through us who is doing to works as apart from Christ we can do NOTHING!

 

[LT]

Hebrews 6


6 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 and ofinstruction about washings,[a] the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, andeternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits. 4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.



If it is impossible to be restored to repentance after being lost, then salvation is a one shot deal.

there is no Scriptural basis for the 'saved, then not saved, then saved again' mentality.

If salvation can be lost, then it is gone forever. No 3rd chance.