Deacon run Church

[Angela53510]

I am so sorry you are struggling with this issue. And I think all the fighting on this thread about polity, when the OP posted about a personal issue is really inappropriate!

If you father is preaching Biblical change and the congregation does not want to change, he may have to move on. It's not that his preaching is wrong, in sounds to me like he is on the right track. Christ wants us to grow as disciples, and the pulpit can be a big factor in moving people forward in discipleship.

However, you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink. I think your father needs to prayerfully consider his options. If you are a congregational church, then it does have the right to remove the pastor. Sadly, many churches are, and a pastor does need to have some controls to make sure he is following God.

The last church I was in (Southern Baptist), when I tried to discuss church polity with the pastor, he would only tell me that elders were bad to have, because they interfered with the running of the church the way the pastor wanted it to be run. And that pastor ran it into the ground, and no one had any say. And he was NOT preaching the Bible! So as a congregation, most of us left. We are all still friends in a small town, and we meet for coffee, and we have agreed that next time we would all stay, and confront the pastor for what he was doing and he would go instead of us. A hard lesson to learn!

I'm not saying your father is doing this, because he sounds like he wants change. However, my old pastor claimed to want change, but it was to a method of evangelism that he favoured, which the congregation was not mature enough to do, nor did our culture support the methods he was using. He preached basically the same sermon for the last 2 years I was in the church, quoting books and never the Bible. From what I hear from the few people that stayed, he is still preaching the same message three years later, still without support from the Bible, because his ideas are a man-made scheme.

The pastor I have now preaches ONLY from the Bible, but with incredible insight. With the approval and assistance of our other pastors, the elders and deacons, he is moving the church forward in a Biblical manner. He never preaches a sermon without using whole passages, and what it means for implementing the ideas for discipleship, which really is the message Jesus left us with in Matt 28:18-20 and Acts 1:8.

Sorry to ramble, I'm just hoping that you can objectively decide from this comparison if your father is really preaching the Bible, or just ideas for change. Only you can decide that, with the Holy Spirit as your guide. I will pray that this situation will work out according to God's will, and that your family will not be hurt by whatever is going to happen.

 

[Elizabeth619]

I appreciate your concern and wandering why my dad got fired. My dad got fired because the deacons were receiving complaints from church members so they say about the way my dad preaches. My dad is not the type of dad where he will preach and expect nothing he expects change from his congregation. The church by laws say that it has to come before the church the deacons do not have are that power. Basically he got fired because people are feeling uncomfortable and don't want to change. This church has done this three times. My dad has prayed about it long and hard and has deciding he is not resigning. He is going to face the deacons. He believes if he doesn't the deacons will still think they have the power. Nobody has ever shut them down before.

Catherine

I was afraid that was the issue. That's why I asked bc the exact thing happened to a preacher at a congregation I used to attend. He wasn't a "politically correct" preacher and his sermons hit a nerve several members banned together and got him fired. I'll type more later. On my phone right now but tell your dad to hang in there. Better things are awaiting him. I'll pray for your family. Keep your head up.

 

[Alligator]

My current church Pleasant Hill is having a serious problem with thinming the deacons can run the churh and decide to fire my daddy. What dxo you think on that? What does scripture say on this matter?

My daddy is the pastor.

A church run by Deacons is not scriptural. In the first century the early church was overseen by elders.

 

[crossnote]

I think that the deacons should not be able to make that decision. It should come before the church.

Is the Church set up with a Voters Assembly where the Congregation has an equal vote?

 

[Ariel82]

I've seen other churches that are run by deacon/ elders of the church.

I believe they have the right to fire a pastor if they don't think that pastor is a good fit for the community/ not doing a good job as pastor or if they think the pastor is teaching things that go against the Bible. Or if they were caught doing something distinctly unChristian like molesting small children.

I don't know why your father was fired. Perhaps its that they want to hire someone else and has nothing to do with your father's performance. Your father could always ask their reasoning.

Moving forward, I believe your father should pray and go where God leads him. It may be a way for God to move him to a church that really needs him and not be a bad thing at all.

 

[Ariel82]

I appreciate your concern and wandering why my dad got fired. My dad got fired because the deacons were receiving complaints from church members so they say about the way my dad preaches. My dad is not the type of dad where he will preach and expect nothing he expects change from his congregation. The church by laws say that it has to come before the church the deacons do not have are that power. Basically he got fired because people are feeling uncomfortable and don't want to change. This church has done this three times. My dad has prayed about it long and hard and has deciding he is not resigning. He is going to face the deacons. He believes if he doesn't the deacons will still think they have the power. Nobody has ever shut them down before.

Catherine

If he decides to "stay and fight" he will need to pray and ask God who in the congregation will stand by his side and support his preaching. I would recommend having other pastors sit in or watch his more contraversial sermons and acertain they are Biblicially sound. Does your dad have a mentor who he can consult?

He can chose to ignore the deacons request and NOT resign. However, if it gets put to vote of the congregation, and the majority votes for him to leave, he will have to leave.

 

[saved1975]

Where does Ephesians 4:11 say that the pastor is anointed to run the church. I can't find that in my Bible.

I can find where the apostles appointed a group of elders in every church. I can find verses where elders are told to pastor the flock of God/ church of God.

The point that I was making in Eph 4: 11, is, there are no Deacons listed.
The Apostle, Prophet Evangelist and Teacher will all have a traveling Ministry, For the perfecting and edifying of the Saints.
But a Pastor cannot travel about and look after the flock at the same time, And every Pastor should have the other four Ministers come to Minister in his Church.

But please note, There are no Deacons listed in Eph 4: 11.

If you check up the Ministry of the, Pastor, Elder, Bishop and Shepherd, In the Biblical Greek meanings, You will see that they are all the PASTOR of the local Church.
But an Elder in the early Church, was also an elder man, And he would run the Church until it was fully established with the appointed Pastor.

James was the Pastor, [Singular] of the Church at Jerusalem.
Timothy was the Pastor, [Singular] of the Church at Ephesians.
Titus was the Pastor, [Singular] of the Church at the Creations.

 

[saved1975]

Thanks for the reply, I don't always prefer to what was said after the original post due to time constraints. However, I don't believe 1 Timothy 3:5 is a prove text for single leadership, but for any and all positions of leadership, but mostly for Bishop (context 1 Timothy 3:1). Bishop is another term for elder, overseer, see vines definition here. It is different word then shepherd/pastor. However, one of the jobs of an elder is to shepherd/disciple others. So in that sense, I agree they are the same. But, whenever the bible talks of shepherds in a church setting, it always use in the plurality sense of the word, except when speaking of Christ.

As for 1 Peter 5, Peter starts with Elders (plural) I exhort. Then he says he is a fellow elder, meaning is holds and shares this position with others. There is no singularity use of eldership to describe the church leadership here.

I still fail to see any biblical proof texts that support your view of single pastoral leadership.

James was the Pastor, [Singular] of the Church at Jerusalem.
Timothy was the Pastor, [Singular] of the Church at Ephesians.
Titus was the Pastor, [Singular] of the Church at the Cretions

 

[Bookends]

James was the Pastor, [Singular] of the Church at Jerusalem.
Timothy was the Pastor, [Singular] of the Church at Ephesians.
Titus was the Pastor, [Singular] of the Church at the Cretions

I do not doubt these 3 you mention here are leaders in their local church, or even head of the elders, maybe a case can be made for that as I alluded to before. But to say they were the only leader in their churches goes beyond what scripture says.

 

[saved1975]

I do not doubt these 3 you mention here are leaders in their local church, or even head of the elders, maybe a case can be made for that as I alluded to before. But to say they were the only leader in their churches goes beyond what scripture says.

The Pastor as the only leader of the Local Church, is Biblical.
He will have help from his Deacons, But God leads His Church through the Pastor.

 

[Dude653]

I dont think the deacons should have that kind of authority. Are deacons even mentioned in the Bible?

 

[p_rehbein]

The Pastor as the only leader of the Local Church, is Biblical.
He will have help from his Deacons, But God leads His Church through the Pastor.

Jesus is the head of the Church..........THAT is Biblical.......Local, Global, matters not. The Pastor is a servant of the Congregation just as are Elders, Deacons, whatever..........

 

[Fenner]

I'm a Deacon at my church, in our meetings we discuss what members who can't get to church need rides, or would like a visit or a Upper Room booklet or a Ministry CD. We also discuss things that need our help, like church dinners and welcoming new members, things like that. I believe the Session of a church is were the church policies come in. Deacons in my opinion are to be the helpers, care givers of the church.

The reason why I would never be on a church session, I don't like church politics.

 

[saved1975]

I dont think the deacons should have that kind of authority. Are deacons even mentioned in the Bible?

Deacons are in the Bible, Philippians 1: 1. 1 Tim 3: 8--13. Notice these two scriptures only mention the Pastor, [Bishop] and the Deacon.
Deacons don't have any authority over the Pastor.

 

[saved1975]

Jesus is the head of the Church..........THAT is Biblical.......Local, Global, matters not. The Pastor is a servant of the Congregation just as are Elders, Deacons, whatever..........

Jesus is the head of the Church, But He gave us the five fold Ministry, Eph 4: 11. And one of those Ministers is the Pastor.

The Elder is the Pastor.

 

[presidente]

The point that I was making in Eph 4: 11, is, there are no Deacons listed.
The Apostle, Prophet Evangelist and Teacher will all have a traveling Ministry, For the perfecting and edifying of the Saints.
But a Pastor cannot travel about and look after the flock at the same time, And every Pastor should have the other four Ministers come to Minister in his Church.

A prophet may travel or may be in one church. The Corinthian church apparently had some prophets right there in the congregation. The Jerusalem church did, too, but some of them took a trip to another church. One of those prophets went to meet Paul to give him a message when he was on his way to Jerusalem.

There can be prophets in a local church. If the church ignores what the Bible says in regard to how it's church meeting functions and suppresses spiritual gifts, (e.g. 'Let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge), they can easily go unnoticed and unrecognized.

We often hear the word 'evangelist' used to refer to itinerant Bible teachers and exhorters who are not pastoring a local church. But in the Bible, Philip the evangelist proclaimed the gospel among those who had not heard it yet, and baptized those who believed the message. He also ministered in one-on-one evangelism.

But please note, There are no Deacons listed in Eph 4: 11.

But they are mentioned elsewhere. Many believe the seven in Jerusalem were deacons. Their job was feeding the poor, not telling everyone what to do. The elders and James did give some advice/instructions to Paul when he came to town, which he heeded, or was trying to heed until he got arrested.

If you check up the Ministry of the, Pastor, Elder, Bishop and Shepherd, In the Biblical Greek meanings, You will see that they are all the PASTOR of the local Church.

The word translated 'bishop' means overseer. The same word is translated as either 'pastor' or 'shepherd.' The word refers to a sheep tender. It doesn't mean, "Solo local church CEO who does most of talking on Sunday." That's our cultural meaning of the word 'pastor', one which we should not read back into the text.

But an Elder in the early Church, was also an elder man, And he would run the Church until it was fully established with the appointed Pastor.

There is no basis in scripture for this. If there is someone with a gift of pastor in the church and he is not one of the elders of the church, not ordained as an overseer, then he should submit to the elders of the church. The apostles ordained elders to minister as bishops in the local church. Acts 20 and I Peter 5 command the elders of the church to 'pastor.' Translations obscure this fact when they use 'feed' or 'tend' to translate the verb form closely associated with the word 'pastor.'

Let's say a brand new believer has a budding gift of pastor. He is not qualified to serve as overseer in the church because he is a novice. Being appointing to the role has more requirements than gifting. A man should first demonstrate his pastoral skills by ruling his own house well, including his children, before being appointing to the role.

For about 1400 years or so, the main word for the church minister role was 'elder' or some derivation thereof. In English this came in as 'priest.' German had a very similar word that looks like 'priest' with a grammatical ending on it. The problem was, in Germanic languages, they started to use the word 'priest' and it's related cognate words to refer to Old Testament kohen. Now, elders in the Old Testament were not called 'kohen', they were called 'zaqen.' Being a priestly descendant of Aaron, and ministering in the temple at age 30, for example, did not make one an 'elder.'

So when Luther came on the scene, he spoke of the 'priesthood of all believers'-- not that all believers were elders, but priests in the sense referred to in the book of Revelation, a different word.

So, how did we get the word 'pastor' as the main word for Protestant clergy? There was a church in Geneva Switzerland, of which John Calvin was it's most famous minister. They sought to have a Christian society, with church and state intermixed. The word 'priest' was a loaded term, so they dropped it in favor of their word for 'pastor.' They believed the New Testament verses about 'elders' applied to their pastors who ministered in the word and sacrament.

In their attempt to design a theocracy, they examined writings about Greek-speaking Christian communities in Syria and North Africa in the 300's, and decided to emulate them in having 'garousia'. That word can also be translated as 'elder.' These were their city councilmen. So their city-councilmen were called elders. Since they had a hybrid of church and state, these 'elders' took on a prominent role in the church community.

John Knox knew and admired John Calvin and the work in Geneva. He later became the most famous Protestant Reformer in Scotland. The Church of Scotland imitated Geneva, even copying the distinction between 'pastors' and 'elders.' From hence the concept of the non-pastoral board elder spread around the world.

Btw, I got most of this from a theological journal written by a Presbyterian scholar.

James was the Pastor, [Singular] of the Church at Jerusalem.

The bible doesn't teach this.

Timothy was the Pastor, [Singular] of the Church at Ephesians.

The Bible doesn't teach this. Timothy was apparently an apostle (I Thes. 1:11, 2:6.) Paul also told him to do the work of an evangelist. He'd travel from place to place. When he was in Ephesus, he was supposed to appoint the local pastoral leadership. There were apparently multiple elders in the city. He may have had the option to appoint more.

Titus was the Pastor, [Singular] of the Church at the Creations.

Again, the Bible does not teach this and you are reading your ideas back into scripture. I am not familiar with any specific verse that attributes an Ephesians 4:11 ministry to Titus. It looks like he was doing the same sort of work the apostolic teams on the mainland were doing, preaching and appointing elders of the churches that formed. Crete was an island with more than one city. He was to appoint elders in every city, with the church in each city having it's own local church government. There is no indication that he was setting himself up as 'the pastor' over the whole island.

The Pastor as the only leader of the Local Church, is Biblical.
He will have help from his Deacons, But God leads His Church through the Pastor.

The Bible does not teach this.

 

[presidente]

I was afraid that was the issue. That's why I asked bc the exact thing happened to a preacher at a congregation I used to attend. He wasn't a "politically correct" preacher and his sermons hit a nerve several members banned together and got him fired. I'll type more later. On my phone right now but tell your dad to hang in there. Better things are awaiting him. I'll pray for your family. Keep your head up.

There are also cases of 'tell it like it is' type preachers who are unnecessarily rude and offensive (not saying that is the case for the OP, btw). Then the preacher gets kicked out and blames it on the congregation not wanting to hear the word of God. Or he may preach weird doctrine, get kicked out, and blame it on the people not wanting to hear the word of God.

There are also entire congregations that don't really want to hear the of God, too.

 

[presidente]

I grew up in an AOG church where the deacons had alot of authority. It creates problems with every pastor. Biblically the person over the pastor should be more involved with overseeing pastor. Pastor should be checking deacons not the other way around.

I was in the AOG at one point. There was a move to change the requirements for elders. One of the brothers pointed out that our deacon board really functioned more in an eldership role with some of the decisions they made. I believe Paul called himself a 'deacon', or servant. One interpretation of the term is that it applies generically to various ministry roles. It may have been the word for some kind of 'miscellaneous' ministry that would be tailor-made for a specific church. I think it is helpful to think of it in terms of people who aid others with physical/material needs as the Seven did and as Phoebe likely did.

 

[saved1975]

A prophet may travel or may be in one church. The Corinthian church apparently had some prophets right there in the congregation. The Jerusalem church did, too, but some of them took a trip to another church. One of those prophets went to meet Paul to give him a message when he was on his way to Jerusalem.

There can be prophets in a local church. If the church ignores what the Bible says in regard to how it's church meeting functions and suppresses spiritual gifts, (e.g. 'Let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge), they can easily go unnoticed and unrecognized.

We often hear the word 'evangelist' used to refer to itinerant Bible teachers and exhorters who are not pastoring a local church. But in the Bible, Philip the evangelist proclaimed the gospel among those who had not heard it yet, and baptized those who believed the message. He also ministered in one-on-one evangelism.



But they are mentioned elsewhere. Many believe the seven in Jerusalem were deacons. Their job was feeding the poor, not telling everyone what to do. The elders and James did give some advice/instructions to Paul when he came to town, which he heeded, or was trying to heed until he got arrested.



The word translated 'bishop' means overseer. The same word is translated as either 'pastor' or 'shepherd.' The word refers to a sheep tender. It doesn't mean, "Solo local church CEO who does most of talking on Sunday." That's our cultural meaning of the word 'pastor', one which we should not read back into the text.



There is no basis in scripture for this. If there is someone with a gift of pastor in the church and he is not one of the elders of the church, not ordained as an overseer, then he should submit to the elders of the church. The apostles ordained elders to minister as bishops in the local church. Acts 20 and I Peter 5 command the elders of the church to 'pastor.' Translations obscure this fact when they use 'feed' or 'tend' to translate the verb form closely associated with the word 'pastor.'

Let's say a brand new believer has a budding gift of pastor. He is not qualified to serve as overseer in the church because he is a novice. Being appointing to the role has more requirements than gifting. A man should first demonstrate his pastoral skills by ruling his own house well, including his children, before being appointing to the role.

For about 1400 years or so, the main word for the church minister role was 'elder' or some derivation thereof. In English this came in as 'priest.' German had a very similar word that looks like 'priest' with a grammatical ending on it. The problem was, in Germanic languages, they started to use the word 'priest' and it's related cognate words to refer to Old Testament kohen. Now, elders in the Old Testament were not called 'kohen', they were called 'zaqen.' Being a priestly descendant of Aaron, and ministering in the temple at age 30, for example, did not make one an 'elder.'

So when Luther came on the scene, he spoke of the 'priesthood of all believers'-- not that all believers were elders, but priests in the sense referred to in the book of Revelation, a different word.

So, how did we get the word 'pastor' as the main word for Protestant clergy? There was a church in Geneva Switzerland, of which John Calvin was it's most famous minister. They sought to have a Christian society, with church and state intermixed. The word 'priest' was a loaded term, so they dropped it in favor of their word for 'pastor.' They believed the New Testament verses about 'elders' applied to their pastors who ministered in the word and sacrament.

In their attempt to design a theocracy, they examined writings about Greek-speaking Christian communities in Syria and North Africa in the 300's, and decided to emulate them in having 'garousia'. That word can also be translated as 'elder.' These were their city councilmen. So their city-councilmen were called elders. Since they had a hybrid of church and state, these 'elders' took on a prominent role in the church community.

John Knox knew and admired John Calvin and the work in Geneva. He later became the most famous Protestant Reformer in Scotland. The Church of Scotland imitated Geneva, even copying the distinction between 'pastors' and 'elders.' From hence the concept of the non-pastoral board elder spread around the world.

Btw, I got most of this from a theological journal written by a Presbyterian scholar.




The bible doesn't teach this.



The Bible doesn't teach this. Timothy was apparently an apostle (I Thes. 1:11, 2:6.) Paul also told him to do the work of an evangelist. He'd travel from place to place. When he was in Ephesus, he was supposed to appoint the local pastoral leadership. There were apparently multiple elders in the city. He may have had the option to appoint more.



Again, the Bible does not teach this and you are reading your ideas back into scripture. I am not familiar with any specific verse that attributes an Ephesians 4:11 ministry to Titus. It looks like he was doing the same sort of work the apostolic teams on the mainland were doing, preaching and appointing elders of the churches that formed. Crete was an island with more than one city. He was to appoint elders in every city, with the church in each city having it's own local church government. There is no indication that he was setting himself up as 'the pastor' over the whole island.



The Bible does not teach this.

A Prophet will have a Church that he goes to, But he will travel as God leads him.

Of cause there are Deacons, But not in the main five fold Ministry, See Eph 4: 11.

A Pastor is the overseer of the local Church.
The Pastor is the Elder Shepherd or Bishop, According to the Bible and the Greek Biblical texts, They are all the same Ministry, The Pastor.

Please note, As for Acts 20, We know that Timotheus [Not Timothy] was the Pastor, [Singular] of the Ephessian Church.
As for 1 Pet 5, If you look at 1 Pet 1: 1. You will that people came from a lot of places, So there would have been Elders, [Plural], But it doesn't say they were all in one Church.

Timotheus wasn't the Pastor of the whole Island, He was Pastor of just one Church.

 

[p_rehbein]

Jesus is the head of the Church, But He gave us the five fold Ministry, Eph 4: 11. And one of those Ministers is the Pastor.

The Elder is the Pastor.

These are "gifts of the Spirit." And there are many more.............anyone who uses their Holy Spirit given gift for the work of the Kingdom is practicing their "ministry."

There can be, and usually are, more than one Elder in a congregation. And Elder is simply that..........an older, more mature believer within a congregation.

All this aside, it does not change the Truth that Jesus Christ is the HEAD of the Church.....be it a lone congregation or the entire Body.

(God bless)