Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[Larry_Stotle]

For one to become a Christian one must receive Jesus Christ as their Savior. There is nothing else required to become a Christian. In fact Jesus did everything required for the believer to become a Christian. Gods grace is wholly, completely and eternally sufficient to save every soul that comes to Christ.

Your problem remains that you cannot distinguish between what is required to become saved and what the expected result is of said salvation. You are trying unsuccessfully to make the result the causation.

There is absolutely nothing you can do to satisfy God. Christ did everything God demanded. You can receive salvation as a gift or your can reject it and attempt to force God to accept your concept of salvation. How did that work out for Cain and Abel?

1 Corinthians God said that He chose the foolishness of preaching to save those that believe. To those that believe it is the power of God unto salvation to those that perish it is foolishness.

It is expected that anyone professing to know Jesus Christ as Savior will live according to what the bible teaches. No one however has any business telling him if he's doing it the way they think he should or not. Each one must give account to Christ for what they have done since salvation. Give account to Christ not to other "Christians".

Works follow salvation. They cannot precede salvation nor do they have any merit towards salvation. Grace alone is sufficient or we are all lost.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Exactly and this is one place where the RC's have the cart before the horse, the works flow from saving faith/grace.

(Eph 2:9 KJV) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

(Eph 2:10 KJV) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[VCO]

SALVATION is SAVED!

But where is the statement that salvation produces works?


Here on's works lead to salvation, but no salvation leads to works.
works produces patience, but nothing that says salvation produces works. Salvation is also future, not present.

and steadfastness produces salvation, but where is the salvation that produces works?

including salvation. Again, nothing that salvation produces works.

dead faith, bad works produces death, burned, hardly salvation. But is also never says salvation produces works, it would be backwards in this text.

fruit lead to salvation. No fruit no salvation. Nothing that says salvation produces works.


but once again, nothing about salvation producing works.

how does this show either position. But at any rate it does not show salvation produces works.


I already have with the examples of Hitler and Stalin. Started out as faithful beleivers, but willfully rejected their faith and willfully adopted a new religion. It is done quite often sadly.

But where is the evidence that salvation produces works? None of the above even came close.

You are swinging at strawmen here. You will find none.

You do know you have to be born again, to understand the spiritual truths in verses don't you?

 

[Cassian]

You do know you have to be born again, to understand the spiritual truths in verses don't you?

Ah, so that is your problem. I'll keep that in mind.

 

[VCO]

We hear those Spiritual Truths plainly teaching that Salvation produces fruit of good works. That the Holy Spirit is teaching us through His Word.

John 10:25-30 (HCSB)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] “I did tell you and you don’t believe,” Jesus answered them. “The works that I do in My Father’s name testify about Me.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] But you don’t believe because you are not My sheep.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] The Father and I are one.”

1 Corinthians 2:12-14 (NKJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man is one who has never been born again, which is having one's human spirit brought to eternal life by the HOLY SPIRIT. He sees and hears only the words on the page, and not the spiritual truths in them.

 

[newbirth]

What kind of work is to be done in order to express our faith as living?

This is what Paul told Timothy
[h=3]1 Timothy 6[/h]King James Version (KJV)


6Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But godliness with contentment is great gain.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
[SUP]14 [/SUP]That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;

[SUP]18 [/SUP]That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

 

[newbirth]

For one to become a Christian one must receive Jesus Christ as their Savior. There is nothing else required to become a Christian. In fact Jesus did everything required for the believer to become a Christian. Gods grace is wholly, completely and eternally sufficient to save every soul that comes to Christ.

Your problem remains that you cannot distinguish between what is required to become saved and what the expected result is of said salvation. You are trying unsuccessfully to make the result the causation.

There is absolutely nothing you can do to satisfy God. Christ did everything God demanded. You can receive salvation as a gift or your can reject it and attempt to force God to accept your concept of salvation. How did that work out for Cain and Abel?

1 Corinthians God said that He chose the foolishness of preaching to save those that believe. To those that believe it is the power of God unto salvation to those that perish it is foolishness.

It is expected that anyone professing to know Jesus Christ as Savior will live according to what the bible teaches. No one however has any business telling him if he's doing it the way they think he should or not. Each one must give account to Christ for what they have done since salvation. Give account to Christ not to other "Christians".

Works follow salvation. They cannot precede salvation nor do they have any merit towards salvation. Grace alone is sufficient or we are all lost.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

 

[newbirth]

And the resurrected Christ replies to this LT and says no my Father's righteousness, taking no credit and Father says no Son you did it you are righteous, you walked by Faith 100% in me Father
We are to not as I see this ever to praise ourselves? No matter how much Faith we exercise in the finished work of Son

If we do we are not humble anymore, and fi we do belong to Father through Son, then we get this just like Paul got:
2 Corinthians 12:7-10

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

I am weak, and am thankful, I have no works to boast in or of, none.
I do have works to boast of though, and they are not mine, they are Father's and Son's
Psalm 100:4
Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name.

You are not weak my friend know where your strength is. God has given you power beyond your understanding, do you know you can resist the devil and pull down his strongholds. Do you know you have the power to bind things on earth.
Paul wrote these letters to show us what we ought to do because we can do them. Do not confess weakness!!!
[h=3]Ephesians 6:1-11[/h]King James Version (KJV)

6 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;

[SUP]3 [/SUP]That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

[h=3]Hebrews 4:15-16[/h]King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]15 [/SUP]For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


[h=3]1 John 2:13-15[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]13 [/SUP]I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

 

[homwardbound]

How bout debating with something biblical and not of opinion?

The bible says faith is a work :

 1 Thessalonians 1:3 (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father,

The bible teaches righteous works yet your opinion says otherwise.

Work of Faith is different from work of flesh, that is what we are trying to prayerfully show, do you agree with this statement

 

[homwardbound]

So then you agree salvation has a requirement of righteous works?

That is to beleive, that is all that Christ left for us to do either believe fully or not
If you take a glass of pure water and drop one drop of ink in it, it that water pure any longer? Tainted and no flesh works will please God outside of Christ's, Faith in Father through Son is what connects us and then Father's Spirit testifies with our Spirit and you know you are one with God no matter what, thanks to Christ

Have a blessed day

 

[homwardbound]

Therefore, no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law, rather, through the law we become conscience of sin. Romans 3:20

the way I read what Paul is saying is that the law is a tool that the follower of Christ has to identify sin.....and repent (go the other way).

The law is good because God made it and he is holy just and righteous. But apart from Christ the law brings death.

Note: Peter had three dreams and was told to kill and eat those unclean animals in his dreams, Peter saw them as unclean and Father said they were now clean. Peter went by God's lead in the power of Holy Spirit to Gentiles house, Cornelius, to preach to them, and not from Peter from God through him.
Note: Peter has seconds thoughts about entering a Gentile home for the Law forbids it, and enters in anyway, against the Law.
what does that te3ll us all? Also they received the Holy Spirit of God of truth, before water baptism, ever took place, and we mere men make the water Baptism a requirement, when this clearly shows, we are not under Law, we by God through Christ are freed, by trusting God to have done it all, we are forgiven, Bible says so, many places, It is done
And Father's hope is we will respond to this with thankfulness and praise, and go do, willingly and not begrudgingly
Praying all with Spiritual ears hear, and be present and accounted for in Heaven in Spirit and truth
God just love us all, chew on that, and do not swallow right away
Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Matthew 9:5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
Daniel 9:9 To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;
Romans 4:7 saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Ephesians 1:7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Ephesians 4:32 and be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.

 

[homwardbound]

but quote the text that says salvation produces works.
I am only familiar with those that say, faith produces works, and we are saved through faith. It never says we are saved through salvation.

Re-read what you posted here, how are works produced? So either; Self flesh and watch my smoke or Faith in God to, lead and you follow and do as Christ did this by Faith, being led by the same Spirit sent to us to lead us right
Therefore it is not "I" that does the works it is Father through us that does them. get it I pray

 

[homwardbound]

Do you even understand what this verse is about?, the God of heaven will direct evil men to do his will, as often exemplified in the Old Testament. It should be noted in connection with this that it is the will of God for the harlot-beast to continue on the earth until all of God's words are accomplished. She does not exist a single day without God's permission.

You take verses out of context to form your man made doctrine.

So then what side are you on, we are clay and we are Formed and we all have free choice?
Please you have been asked before what is your choice?

 

[homwardbound]

Do you see my post above? and all I see from you is opinion, lets try again :

How bout debating with something biblical and not of opinion?

The bible says faith is a work :

 1 Thessalonians 1:3 (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father,

The bible teaches righteous works yet your opinion says otherwise.

Do you understand, the difference of work of Faith, and work of flesh, Carnal nature, self will to one's own comfort, God as their vending machine, using God for them self, for their own gain

 

[homwardbound]

Matthew 5:16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.


How good are our works? Must be really good if they can get others to praise God.

Good point, they would have to be perfect and then God would not get the praise man of claiming he believes would get the praise, something to the tune of when Moses stuck that rock for water, and pride was in the way, and not giving all credit to God. An en sample for us all to see Spiritually from Father to all that see, and all that do not trusting God to show who need to see whenever that is according to Father through Son to become
Thank you, Jesus and Father

 

[homwardbound]

This is not true for the saved. The context is:
You come to the help of those who gladly do right, who remember your ways. But when we continued to sin against them, you were angry. How then can we be saved? All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags.
If one believes the saved (or true faith which the debate on this thread is about) will produce good works.

Bottom line this is what is experienced as truth, in the believer, who has walked by self, getting plaudits and popularity, and thought of themselves as righteous, when truly no one is but God the Father and Jesus even acclaimed to that in Matt. 19 to that rich man, why do you call me good, only my Father is good
So do you now see self as filthy or not. If you want to be perfect go and get rid of everything that attains to this earth, sell it all and give to the poor and take up Christ and perform the whole law perfectly as he did
Or beleive he did this for you, obeyed the whole to present perfectly to Father as clean by hi9s death, for you to get new life in Spirit and truth, given to you be Faith (belief) in his finished work for you.
We are forgiven:
1 John 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name’s sake.

Is this true or not? So if is how will you respond? Okay I got my part to do now, and you all watch my smoke, because I am doing God is so pleased in me, I won't have any works burn up, I am so Good, thanks Christ?
"NOT"

 

[homwardbound]

Ah, so that is your problem. I'll keep that in mind.

This reveals you are in the flesh to me, don't knw about anyone else, yet do you see this
[h=3]Luke 18:9-14[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: [SUP]10 [/SUP]Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. [SUP]14 [/SUP]I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

 

[p_rehbein]

LIST OF WORKS YOU HAVE DONE TO EARN YOUR SALVATION:

1)
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)

[add to the number as your works require]

 

[homwardbound]

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

What does this mean in context with the Chapter before and in this Chapter verses to follow?

[h=3]Romans 12[/h]Living Bible (TLB)

12 And so, dear brothers, I plead with you to give your bodies to God. Let them be a living sacrifice, holy—the kind he can accept. When you think of what he has done for you, is this too much to ask? [SUP]2 [/SUP]Don’t copy the behavior and customs of this world, but be a new and different person with a fresh newness in all you do and think. Then you will learn from your own experience how his ways will really satisfy you.

To be Holy as he is Holy can anyone's Carnal nature do this under law or laws to perform this perfectly? Being flesh and blood?
Do we not need to be born of the Spirit of God to be able to walk as Christ walked, Holy, and how did he do this, by Faith in being led by Father or by watch my works Father?

 

[Hungry]

I really can't believe there has been nearly 3000 posts and there is still debate. Not to mention this subject has been beaten to death already. Is it really not clear to anybody that grace is a gift? It is not a reward so that anyone can boast. Once someone has "believed" or has faith in Christ and has repented, they are to follow​. As they follow and heed the instruction of the Holy Spirit, they will do works and shed temptation to sin. This is a "proof" of salvation. You can't earn the gift, but there are strings attached. If someone believes that Jesus is the Christ, does not repent and does not follow they are not accepting the gift of salvation. As it is written even the demons believe and shutter.

 

[crossnote]

LIST OF WORKS YOU HAVE DONE TO EARN YOUR SALVATION:

1)
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)

[add to the number as your works require]

you forgot one...

11)