SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS!

[crossnote]

Again another verse saying work means believe and believe means do nothing... same chapter What is Christ saying now
John 6
[SUP]63 [/SUP]It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

[SUP]65 [/SUP]And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
[SUP]66 [/SUP]From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
[SUP]67 [/SUP]Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

[SUP]68 [/SUP]Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

[SUP]69 [/SUP]And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

Those who believe will obey

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


I think it's time you guys find out what you have to obey

Who enlightens you?
Who gives you His Word?
Who convicts you?
Who has the reigns of your heart?
Who gives you new life?
Who gives you a new heart?
Who empowers you to do His will?
Who gives you His Spirit?
Who gives you the breath of life?
You act as if obedience is something you glory in and look down on others who are also His children.

 

[newbirth]

Like John said...they went out from us, because they NEVER WERE OF US! Salvation is an eternal state as it is the Spirit that is born again, does not sin and is eternally sealed in Christ and the faith of Christ by the Holy Spirit of Promise which is the (prepayment) of our eternal inheritance in Christ.

My friend that teaching is not from God This is what the word of God says;
1 Timothy 6

King James Version (KJV)


6 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

[SUP]4[/SUP]He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]But godliness with contentment is great gain.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;

[SUP]14 [/SUP]That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
[SUP]18 [/SUP]That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

 

[newbirth]

Who enlightens you?
Who gives you His Word?
Who convicts you?
Who has the reigns of your heart?
Who gives you new life?
Who gives you a new heart?
Who empowers you to do His will?
Who gives you His Spirit?
Who gives you the breath of life?
You act as if obedience is something you glory in and look down on others who are also His children.

I glory in Christ who has given us the power to become sons of God. Why do you say I look down on others, the words I speak are not mine do you think I am not speaking to myself also? Every day every minute every second I have to bring my flesh under subjection to the spirit of Christ. Even as I eat food for the body so I eat and drink Christ for my spirit. If you see me heading to danger warn me I take no offence. If I warn a brother who is contrary to the gospel you say I look down on others.

 

[crossnote]

I glory in Christ who has given us the power to become sons of God. Why do you say I look down on others, the words I speak are not mine do you think I am not speaking to myself also? Every day every minute every second I have to bring my flesh under subjection to the spirit of Christ. Even as I eat food for the body so I eat and drink Christ for my spirit. If you see me heading to danger warn me I take no offence. If I warn a brother who is contrary to the gospel you say I look down on others.

Sorry, I was only going by your recent condescending quotes.

"I think it's time you guys find out what you have to obey"

"These are the same things Jesus preached so are you going to obey or not?"

 

[newbirth]

Sorry, I was only going by your recent condescending quotes.

"I think it's time you guys find out what you have to obey"

"These are the same things Jesus preached so are you going to obey or not?"

I hold nothing against you brother and I didn't mean to belittle anyone. I will try to choose my words with more love thanks for the heads up anyway.

 

[haz]

What law are you speaking of are you a Jew?

Christians are spiritual Jews, as we have had circumcision of the heart, Rom 2:28, 29.

I speak of the law of the spirit and I believe you know what I mean.
.

I don't know how much experience you have at discussions on forums, but on forums we can't just assume that others will simply "know what I mean".

Forums are difficult places to get your idea across at the best of times. In addition there are many legalists on forums and some of them are deliberately subtle in trying to gradually lure others back under the law for righteousness by works of the law. Hence why I asked for your clarification as to whether my initial understanding of what you were presenting was correct. I'm still not sure of what your arguing for so would ask that you explain your points more thoroughly and simply. Thanks.

 

[royalscot]

the parable of the prodgal son, matt 18.
these 2 quote don't just belong to legalist ,but to everyone who read the bible.
forums are difficult, for example ( j/ witnesses )don't believe in jesus, but look at the bible or try to study it. easy to see them , give me the answer to this question, but give no answer back.
however, this is a mixed christain forum. give when I say christain I mean, one who believes jesus is lord.
the logus and remha stay true.
the prodgal son explains why we cant lose, the gift.
matt18 comes close to the golden rule. (and that means everyone on the planet). ie costs nothing to say , hello and keep on walking.

 

[Elin]

AMEN and I agree.....Jesus already done the works and that is why he gets all the glory....!

But he has some work for you can you handle it?

Are you confounding salvation past (forgiveness of sin--Lk 1:77, completed action)

with salvation present (sanctification, living out the completed salvation from God's wrath
on sin, Ro 5:9)

or salvation future (redemption of our bodies, glorification)?

God's completed action of forgiving our sin by faith alone is salvation (Lk 1:77) past
(from his wrath, Ro 5:9),

but faith obeys, which is salvation present (sanctification).

Paul is clear that it is not the obedience that saves, but only the faith that saves.

However, that does not exclude obedience in the living out of one's completed salvation
from God's wrath on sin (Ro 5:9),
it excludes obedience only as a basis of one's completed salvation from God's wrath,
which is forgiveness of sin (Lk 1:77).

Are you confounding completed salvation (based on faith alone) with present sanctification (obedience)?

 

[crossnote]

Christians are spiritual Jews, as we have had circumcision of the heart, Rom 2:28, 29.

.

That passage is comparing Jews who have been heart circumcised to Jews who have only physical circumcision. The whole context is the believing Jews compared to the non believing Jews. It has nothing to do with believing Gentiles being 'spiritual jews'. You can call us 'spiritual gentiles' if you will.

 

[dcontroversal]

That passage is comparing Jews who have been heart circumcised to Jews who have only physical circumcision. The whole context is the believing Jews compared to the non believing Jews. It has nothing to do with believing Gentiles being 'spiritual jews'. You can call us 'spiritual gentiles' if you will.

I always remind the Lord that I am a low life Gentile not worthy to lick the dust off the bottom of his righteous foot! I am like the Centurion and not worthy that the Lord should come under my roof or like the woman who reminded the Lord that even the dogs lick from the crumbs that fall from the master's table...Or the guy who beats on his chest saying, be merciful unto me a sinner....Thank God that the Heavenly Father through Jesus brought both Jews and Gentiles in under the banner of faith. Jesus gets the Glory!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I always remind the Lord that I am a low life Gentile not worthy to lick the dust off the bottom of his righteous foot! I am like the Centurion and not worthy that the Lord should come under my roof or like the woman who reminded the Lord that even the dogs lick from the crumbs that fall from the master's table...Or the guy who beats on his chest saying, be merciful unto me a sinner....Thank God that the Heavenly Father through Jesus brought both Jews and Gentiles in under the banner of faith. Jesus gets the Glory!

we do not understand how loved we are, that God comes to our own door and knocks to come in and dine with us..

We could never get our house clean enough to make it worthy for the king of kings to enter.

 

[dcontroversal]

we do not understand how loved we are, that God comes to our own door and knocks to come in and dine with us..

We could never get our house clean enough to make it worthy for the king of kings to enter.

No doubt and I agree fully...if it was not for the faith and righteousness of Christ being applied unto to by the simple act of faith then we would be a stink in the nostrils of God!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No doubt and I agree fully...if it was not for the faith and righteousness of Christ being applied unto to by the simple act of faith then we would be a stink in the nostrils of God!

I think this is even a nice way to put it, I would have said something else. But not in here, Some people might not like it..lol

 

[dcontroversal]

I think this is even a nice way to put it, I would have said something else. But not in here, Some people might not like it..lol

HAHAH yeah no doubt...I just raked out my chicken coop yesterday and I can get the (drift) ahaha if you will!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

HAHAH yeah no doubt...I just raked out my chicken coop yesterday and I can get the (drift) ahaha if you will!

lol, Amen and Amen brother!!

 

[newbirth]

Are you confounding salvation past (forgiveness of sin--Lk 1:77, completed action)

with salvation present (sanctification, living out the completed salvation from God's wrath
on sin, Ro 5:9)

or salvation future (redemption of our bodies, glorification)?

God's completed action of forgiving our sin by faith alone is salvation (Lk 1:77) past
(from his wrath, Ro 5:9),

but faith obeys, which is salvation present (sanctification).

Paul is clear that it is not the obedience that saves, but only the faith that saves.

However, that does not exclude obedience in the living out of one's completed salvation
from God's wrath on sin (Ro 5:9),
it excludes obedience only as a basis of one's completed salvation from God's wrath,
which is forgiveness of sin (Lk 1:77).

Are you confounding completed salvation (based on faith alone) with present sanctification (obedience)?

I will try to devote some time to study what you deduced here but in the mean time
[h=3]Ephesians 4:4-6[/h]King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]4 [/SUP]There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
[SUP]5 [/SUP]One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

[SUP]6 [/SUP]One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

 

[haz]

That passage is comparing Jews who have been heart circumcised to Jews who have only physical circumcision. The whole context is the believing Jews compared to the non believing Jews. It has nothing to do with believing Gentiles being 'spiritual jews'. You can call us 'spiritual gentiles' if you will.

I see it differently.
Rom 2:25,26 for example speaks of how the uncircumcision (Gentiles) became circumcision and how those with the law (the physical Jews) became uncircumcision. These verses leading up to Rom 2:29 confirm that being a spiritual Jew does not apply only to physical Jews who believe on Jesus.

Note also Rom 9:7-9
nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

Believers, regardless of their physical ancestry, are the children of the promise due to the "seed" in us that the promise was made to.

Note who that seed is in Gal 3:16
Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.

I'm sure you would agree that Christ is in believers just as much as he is in physical Jews that believe on him. Christ in us (the seed) makes believers (regardless of their physical ancestry) the children of the promise.

 

[newbirth]

Christians are spiritual Jews, as we have had circumcision of the heart, Rom 2:28, 29.



I don't know how much experience you have at discussions on forums, but on forums we can't just assume that others will simply "know what I mean".

Forums are difficult places to get your idea across at the best of times. In addition there are many legalists on forums and some of them are deliberately subtle in trying to gradually lure others back under the law for righteousness by works of the law. Hence why I asked for your clarification as to whether my initial understanding of what you were presenting was correct. I'm still not sure of what your arguing for so would ask that you explain your points more thoroughly and simply. Thanks.

I usually look at a members forum posts to get an idea of their stance.
I believe we must obey Christ if we believe in him some say there is no need.

Matt 28
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

[newbirth]

Christians are spiritual Jews, as we have had circumcision of the heart, Rom 2:28, 29.

I really don't like to debate those issues because it brings strife but let the word of God be true.
[SUP]
Col3
10 [/SUP]And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

 

[newbirth]

I always remind the Lord that I am a low life Gentile not worthy to lick the dust off the bottom of his righteous foot! I am like the Centurion and not worthy that the Lord should come under my roof or like the woman who reminded the Lord that even the dogs lick from the crumbs that fall from the master's table...Or the guy who beats on his chest saying, be merciful unto me a sinner....Thank God that the Heavenly Father through Jesus brought both Jews and Gentiles in under the banner of faith. Jesus gets the Glory!

Now the Lord shows us what we must do and who we are in him.
[h=3]1 Peter 2:1-10[/h]King James Version (KJV)

Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,

[SUP]2 [/SUP]As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
[SUP]3[/SUP]If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
[SUP]5[/SUP]Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.