Why you need to stop your lies against Obama & The Pope

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
38,931
13,915
113
#21
How about if the ruler against God.

If the ruler is a Killer, abortion, Inquisition, teach something not biblical. Do we have to do what ever his command?
Paul thought so:

Paul looked straight at the Sanhedrin and said, “My brothers, I have fulfilled my duty to God in all good conscience to this day.”
At this the high priest Ananias ordered those standing near Paul to strike him on the mouth. Then Paul said to him, “God will strike you, you whitewashed wall! You sit there to judge me according to the law, yet you yourself violate the law by commanding that I be struck!”
Those who were standing near Paul said, “How dare you insult God’s high priest!”
Paul replied, “Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written:
‘Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people.’ ”

(Acts 23:1-5)

Jesus also, when Peter was questioned about paying the tax, told him "
so that we do not offend" and bade him catch a fish, where he found a coin to pay both his own tax and Christ's.
(Matthew ch. 17)

how much is in the scripture about Jesus condemning the Roman emperor? zero.

"
do not repay evil with evil"
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
38,931
13,915
113
#22
is the justification for being a pawn of the GOP in the scripture, or your own heart?

No one serving as a soldier gets entangled in civilian affairs, but rather tries to please his commanding officer.
(2 Timothy 2:4)

whose army are you in?
 

G4JC

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2011
668
6
0
#23
[h=1]Romans Chapter 13[/h] [TABLE="width: 100%"]
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It seems that every time someone such as myself attempts to encourage our Christian brothers and sisters to resist an unconstitutional or otherwise reprehensible government policy, we hear the retort, "What about Romans Chapter 13? We Christians must submit to government. Any government. Read your Bible, and leave me alone." Or words to that effect.


No doubt, some who use this argument are sincere. They are only repeating what they have heard their pastor and other religious leaders say. On the other hand, let's be honest enough to admit that some who use this argument are just plain lazy, apathetic, and indifferent. And Romans 13 is their escape from responsibility. I suspect this is the much larger group, by the way.


Nevertheless, for the benefit of those who are sincere (but obviously misinformed), let's briefly examine Romans Chapter 13. I quote Romans Chapter 13, verses 1 through 7, from the Authorized King James text:
"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor."


Do our Christian friends who use these verses to teach that we should not oppose President Bush or any other political leader really believe that civil magistrates have unlimited authority to do anything they want without opposition? I doubt whether they truly believe that.


For example, what if our President decided to resurrect the old monarchal custom of Jus Primae Noctis (Law of First Night)? That was the old medieval custom when the king claimed the right to sleep with a subject's bride on the first night of their marriage. Would our sincere Christian brethren sheepishly say, "Romans Chapter 13 says we must submit to the government"? I think not. And would any of us respect any man who would submit to such a law?
So, there are limits to authority. A father has authority in his home, but does this give him power to abuse his wife and children? Of course not. An employer has authority on the job, but does this give him power to control the private lives of his employees? No. A pastor has overseer authority in the church, but does this give him power to tell employers in his church how to run their businesses? Of course not. All human authority is limited in nature. No man has unlimited authority over the lives of other men. (Lordship and Sovereignty is the exclusive domain of Jesus Christ.)
By the same token, a civil magistrate has authority in civil matters, but his authority is limited and defined. Observe that Romans Chapter 13 clearly limits the authority of civil government by strictly defining its purpose: "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil . . . For he is the minister of God to thee for good . . . for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."


Notice that civil government must not be a "terror to good works." It has no power or authority to terrorize good works or good people. God never gave it that authority. And any government that oversteps that divine boundary has no divine authority or protection.


Civil government is a "minister of God to thee for good." It is a not a minister of God for evil. Civil magistrates have a divine duty to "execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." They have no authority to execute wrath upon him that doeth good. None. Zilch. Zero. And anyone who says they do is lying. So, even in the midst of telling Christians to submit to civil authority, Romans Chapter 13 limits the power and reach of civil authority.


Did Moses violate God's principle of submission to authority when he killed the Egyptian taskmaster in defense of his fellow Hebrew? Did Elijah violate God's principle of submission to authority when he openly challenged Ahab and Jezebel? Did David violate God's principle of submission to authority when he refused to surrender to Saul's troops? Did Daniel violate God's principle of submission to authority when he disobeyed the king's law to not pray audibly to God? Did the three Hebrew children violate God's principle of submission to authority when they refused to bow to the image of the state? Did John the Baptist violate God's principle of submission to authority when he publicly scolded King Herod for his infidelity? Did Simon Peter and the other Apostles violate God's principle of submission to authority when they refused to stop preaching on the streets of Jerusalem? Did Paul violate God's principle of submission to authority when he refused to obey those authorities who demanded that he abandon his missionary work? In fact, Paul spent almost as much time in jail as he did out of jail.


Remember that every apostle of Christ (except John) was killed by hostile civil authorities opposed to their endeavors. Christians throughout church history were imprisoned, tortured, or killed by civil authorities of all stripes for refusing to submit to their various laws and prohibitions. Did all of these Christian martyrs violate God's principle of submission to authority?


So, even the great prophets, apostles, and writers of the Bible (including the writer of Romans Chapter 13) understood that human authority--even civil authority--is limited.


Plus, Paul makes it clear that our submission to civil authority must be predicated on more than fear of governmental retaliation. Notice, he said, "Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake." Meaning, our obedience to civil authority is more than just "because they said so." It is also a matter of conscience. This means we must think and reason for ourselves regarding the justness and rightness of our government's laws. Obedience is not automatic or robotic. It is a result of both rational deliberation and moral approbation.
Therefore, there are times when civil authority may need to be resisted. Either governmental abuse of power or the violation of conscience (or both) could precipitate civil disobedience. Of course, how and when we decide to resist civil authority is an entirely separate issue. And I will reserve that discussion for another time.


Beyond that, we in the United States of America do not live under a monarchy. We have no king. There is no single governing official in this country. America's "supreme Law" does not rest with any man or any group of men. America's "supreme Law" does not rest with the President, the Congress, or even the Supreme Court. In America, the U.S. Constitution is the "supreme Law of the Land." Under our laws, every governing official publicly promises to submit to the Constitution of the United States. Do readers understand the significance of this distinction? I hope so.


This means that in America the "higher powers" are not the men who occupy elected office, they are the tenets and principles set forth in the U.S. Constitution. Under our laws and form of government, it is the duty of every citizen, including our elected officials, to obey the U.S. Constitution. Therefore, this is how Romans Chapter 13 reads to Americans:


"Let every soul be subject unto the [U.S. Constitution.] For there is no [Constitution] but of God: the [Constitution] that be [is] ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the [Constitution], resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For [the Constitution is] not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the [Constitution]? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For [the Constitution] is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for [the Constitution] beareth not the sword in vain: for [the Constitution] is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For this cause pay ye tribute also: for [the Constitution is] God's minister, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor."


Dear Christian friend, the above is exactly the proper understanding of our responsibility to civil authority in these United States, as per the teaching of Romans Chapter 13.


Furthermore, Christians, above all people, should desire that their elected representatives submit to the Constitution, because it is constitutional government that has done more to protect Christian liberty than any governing document ever devised by man. As I have noted before in this column (See: Columns > Bible Inspired America’s Founding Documents ), Biblical principles form the foundation of all three of America's founding documents: The Declaration of Independence, The U.S. Constitution, and The Bill of Rights.

As a result, Christians in America (for the most part) have not had to face the painful decision to "obey God rather than men" and defy their civil authorities.


The problem in America today is that we have allowed our political leaders to violate their oaths of office and to ignore, and blatantly disobey, the "supreme Law of the Land," the U.S. Constitution. Therefore, if we truly believe Romans Chapter 13, we will insist and demand that our civil magistrates submit to the U.S. Constitution.

Now, how many of us Christians are going to truly obey Romans Chapter 13?


© Chuck Baldwin

This column is archived as Columns > Romans Chapter 13
 
Mar 21, 2011
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#24
Obama is a socialist ! and a liar! I am bearing true witness because of his actions.
Actually he's not and you are lying. You are actually bearing false witness against your neighbour.
 
Mar 21, 2011
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#25
It's okay, I suspected that the general gang of 'false witness bearers' here would lie against me and call me wicked.

They are so confident they are right, they are not even afraid of God.
 

JimJimmers

Senior Member
Apr 26, 2012
2,594
77
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#26
It's okay, I suspected that the general gang of 'false witness bearers' here would lie against me and call me wicked.

They are so confident they are right, they are not even afraid of God.

If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

If you went to my church, the elders would excommunicate you for blatant unrepentant hypocrisy.
 
Nov 26, 2012
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#27
Actually he's not and you are lying. You are actually bearing false witness against your neighbour.
All I have to say about the socialist agenda, and honesty of Obama is, "If you like your medical plan, you can keep your plan."
 
Dec 18, 2013
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#28
All I have to say about the socialist agenda, and honesty of Obama is, "If you like your medical plan, you can keep your plan."
If Obama have a socialist agenda then I'd say his Mandate to buy a service from a corporation upon condition that you are alive is moreso facist than socialist. So Obama not that good at being a socialist.

But meh, matter of opinion I'd suppose. Though I do agree with David's point, no need to make up lies about Obama. President Obama have a wealth of material and policy at this point in time to review without making anything up. I personally don't find Obama to be any better or worse than George W. Bush. In fact the two are shockingly similar on policy. Don't be too worried on Obama, he will retire in two years time and if Hillary runs for President she will win.
 

JimJimmers

Senior Member
Apr 26, 2012
2,594
77
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#29
If Obama have a socialist agenda then I'd say his Mandate to buy a service from a corporation upon condition that you are alive is moreso facist than socialist. So Obama not that good at being a socialist.
To be fair to Obama though, he did explicitly state he wanted the "single payer" system of health care, but ended up settling for the mandate. So I'd say that makes a decent argument for straight-up socialism.
 
Dec 18, 2013
6,733
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#30
To be fair to Obama though, he did explicitly state he wanted the "single payer" system of health care, but ended up settling for the mandate. So I'd say that makes a decent argument for straight-up socialism.
Lol I remember in 2008 during the Democrat Primaries Obama promising not to put the Mandate in place, and instead he favored a plan much akin to what GOPers have proposed (Corporate Mandate was his opponent Hillary's idea.) My guess is some sort of backroom deal was made when the Democrat Party gave Obama the nomination. Though trully I know not what the real issue for his big healthcare flip flop on that issue was. Don't recall him ever stating he wanted a socialist healthcare system, though I wouldn't doubt it, Obama made just about every promise he could make to get elected lol, very typical of politicians of both parties in my lifetime.

To be quite honest I favored Obama at first in 2008 Primaries and was all for him, then when he won the Primaries he started speaking against all the promises he gave that I liked which is why I did not vote for him for President (though I should add I also did not vote for McCain either because I am well aware of how McCain basically has his own lil mercenary armies all around the world.)

In terms of good things Obama has done, I do like some of his foreign policy. Now foreign policy is tricky by reason that anything can happen as foreign policy isn't solely dependant on our politicians. However some good things we can say about Obama I'd say is his Pacific Trade Strategy, Pacific Naval Build-Up, and him re-forging our European Alliances which Bush wrecked pretty badly. By comparison to his contemporaries in the World Politic stage I'd say Obama is at least in my top 10. For top current world leader in my opinion, I'd say it's a toss up between Merkel and Netanyahu.
 

JimJimmers

Senior Member
Apr 26, 2012
2,594
77
48
#31
Lol I remember in 2008 during the Democrat Primaries Obama promising not to put the Mandate in place, and instead he favored a plan much akin to what GOPers have proposed (Corporate Mandate was his opponent Hillary's idea.) My guess is some sort of backroom deal was made when the Democrat Party gave Obama the nomination. Though trully I know not what the real issue for his big healthcare flip flop on that issue was. Don't recall him ever stating he wanted a socialist healthcare system, though I wouldn't doubt it, Obama made just about every promise he could make to get elected lol, very typical of politicians of both parties in my lifetime.

To be quite honest I favored Obama at first in 2008 Primaries and was all for him, then when he won the Primaries he started speaking against all the promises he gave that I liked which is why I did not vote for him for President (though I should add I also did not vote for McCain either because I am well aware of how McCain basically has his own lil mercenary armies all around the world.)

In terms of good things Obama has done, I do like some of his foreign policy. Now foreign policy is tricky by reason that anything can happen as foreign policy isn't solely dependant on our politicians. However some good things we can say about Obama I'd say is his Pacific Trade Strategy, Pacific Naval Build-Up, and him re-forging our European Alliances which Bush wrecked pretty badly. By comparison to his contemporaries in the World Politic stage I'd say Obama is at least in my top 10. For top current world leader in my opinion, I'd say it's a toss up between Merkel and Netanyahu.

Nice to have a non-hysterical conversation about Obama, LOL. I enjoyed reading it.

Incidentally, here is the quote: Barack Obama on single payer in 2003 | Physicians for a National Health Program
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,373
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#32
Paul thought so:

Paul looked straight at the Sanhedrin and said, “My brothers, I have fulfilled my duty to God in all good conscience to this day.”
At this the high priest Ananias ordered those standing near Paul to strike him on the mouth. Then Paul said to him, “God will strike you, you whitewashed wall! You sit there to judge me according to the law, yet you yourself violate the law by commanding that I be struck!”
Those who were standing near Paul said, “How dare you insult God’s high priest!”
Paul replied, “Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written:
‘Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people.’ ”

(Acts 23:1-5)

Jesus also, when Peter was questioned about paying the tax, told him "
so that we do not offend" and bade him catch a fish, where he found a coin to pay both his own tax and Christ's.
(Matthew ch. 17)

how much is in the scripture about Jesus condemning the Roman emperor? zero.

"
do not repay evil with evil"
So we must obey the ruler.

How about when ruler like in muslim country prohibit christian to witness to other?
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
14,122
9,538
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#33
It's okay, I suspected that the general gang of 'false witness bearers' here would lie against me and call me wicked.

They are so confident they are right, they are not even afraid of God.

We are not the only ones calling this administration wicked. If you support the wicked and castigate Christians who oppose evil, what does that say about you?



Dobson tears into Obama: ‘Come and get me’
 

Photoss

Senior Member
Sep 15, 2012
213
10
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#34
David_1 only comes on here to stir the pot, and like many liberals, is tolerant ONLY if you agree with his beliefs.
 
K

kenthomas27

Guest
#35
Please please don't start up again David_1 cuz JimJimmers is kinda just nailing you to the wall here and it's getting a little embarrassing to watch.
 
Nov 30, 2012
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#37
I don't like Obama. I think he is and will be remembered as the worst president of the United States of America. He has tanked our economy and placed us on the abyss of a societal collapse. However, he is not the Anti Christ or part of a grand conspiracy. He's a power hungry know-it-all who has a rudimentary understanding of Marxist philosophy. He is not a communist, but he is by definition a socialist, which I can't fault him for since many believe I am a socialist (I'm not, I'm a feudalist by the way).
 
Mar 21, 2011
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#39