Does water baptism save us

[jjtj22]

One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!" 40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." 42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" 43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." Luke 23:39-43



Seems to me this fellow here did not receive a baptism of water.

Sorry if this point has already been made.

 

[SeaBass]

it sure doesn't say that any "work" saves!
let's read it:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.
(Ephesians 2:8-9)

shall we say then:
"i am better than you in God's sight, because i have been baptized"
?

Eph 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith..." Faith is a work. It's dead if is not.

---------------------------------

Eph 2:8--------------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1Pet3:21-------------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>saves

Just one way to be saved so faith MUST include baptism.


-----------------------------------

Eph 1:1-9 Paul tells us those Epheisans were spiritually "in Christ", "in Him". No verse say fiath only puts one in Christ, but Gal 3;27 says baptism puts one in Christ.

----------------------------------


Jn 3:5--------------spirit++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13---------spirit++++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>in the body
Eph 5:26-----------the word+++++++++washing of water>>>>>>>cleasned


----------------------------------


In Acts 19:5 Paul baptized about 12 Ephesians in the name of the Lord. This baptism 'in the name of the Lord" is the same water baptismof the great comission of acts 2:38 and Acts 10:47,48.

 

[SeaBass]

the same thing that Paul is referring to here:

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
(Ephesians 5:25-27)

Christ Himself is the Word, and the Living Water is the same, given to us as an earnest by the Holy Spirit.

the same thing that Jesus said here:

In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying,

If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. ​

(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
(John 7:37-39)

this isn't talking about simply getting your hair wet.

Eph 5:26 "washing of water" is water baptism.

But I would like YOU to explicitly tell me what Jesus was making water figuratively to mean in Jn 4:10.

The context say "But this spake he of the Spirit". So was Christ making water to figuratively mean spirit in Jn 4:10?

 

[posthuman]

An issue is, does the bible say water baptism is just a symbol and nothing more? No, for the bible also teaches water baptism saves, 1 Pet 3:21, Mk 16;16; Acts 2:38. From Rom 6:4, can one NOT be water baptized therefore NOT walk in newness of life yet still be saved? No.

let's not take things out of context..

and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
(1 Peter 3:21-22)

Peter makes it clear that baptism isn't about the physical act of being washed with water, but about "the pledge of a clear conscience toward God" and that it is Jesus Christ who saves, not a ritual.
Matthew 16:16 also reads "he who has believed and is baptized" Acts 2:38 says "be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ" and Romans 6:4 says we are "buried with Him by baptism into death" -- now that is either symbolic or pastors haven't been holding believers under the water long enough.

it is the name of Jesus Christ, it is Jesus Christ that saves, not a ritual.

 

[dcontroversal]

Jn 3:5--------------spirit++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
.

Your logic is flawed and water comes before spirit in John 3:5 and is indicative of being born of the flesh and has nothing to do with water baptism....

Your other uses of water and the word MUST is also flawed and contrary....BAPTISM is a PICTURE OF THE SALVATION THAT ONE ALREADY POSSESSES and does not add to or supplement biblical salvation!

WAS JESUS the SON of GOD before his baptism????? YES HE WAS!

 

[posthuman]

Eph 5:26 "washing of water" is water baptism.

does it then teach husbands to baptize their wives with water?

But I would like YOU to explicitly tell me what Jesus was making water figuratively to mean in Jn 4:10.

see the post you quoted.

 

[gleener]

You should re-read as I said....

BAPTISM HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION.......as faith alone saves!

for by Grace thru faith and that not of our selves Sorry just trying to keep it straight with scripture I agree with your statements and thank you for serving our country God bless you

 

[Jabberjaw]

One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!" 40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." 42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" 43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." Luke 23:39-43



Seems to me this fellow here did not receive a baptism of water.

Sorry if this point has already been made.

Point has been made and refuted,

1. There is no proof the thief was not baptized under John and became a criminal.
2. This is not a new testament example, while Jesus was alive He could save anyone He wanted to by His words, after He died, he is under His own law and to save the thief without the baptism of Eph. 4:5 (water baptism) he would be unjust.

Hebrews 9:16-17 (NKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

 

[SeaBass]

One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!" 40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." 42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" 43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." Luke 23:39-43



Seems to me this fellow here did not receive a baptism of water.

Sorry if this point has already been made.

You post "Seems to me this fellow here did not receive a baptism of water."

Other than the theif is not an example of NT salvation, do you have any proof the thief had NEVER been water baptized?

 

[SeaBass]

does it then teach husbands to baptize their wives with water?



see the post you quoted.

Eph 5:26 Paul is speaking of the EPhsain being born again as I compared 3 verses:

Jn 3:5--------------spirit++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13---------spirit++++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>in the body
Eph 5:26-----------the word+++++++++washing of water>>>>>>>cleasned



It comes across to me by you using Jn 4:10 you were trying to make "water" of Jn 3:5 to mean "spirit".

 

[posthuman]

You post "Seems to me this fellow here did not receive a baptism of water."

Other than the theif is not an example of NT salvation, do you have any proof the thief had NEVER been water baptized?

seems to me it's not up to us to decide who is saved and who is lost, and perhaps God gave us the scripture as it is so that we wouldn't put our faith in a ritual, but in His Son.

in Acts 10:44-48, many received the Holy Ghost before they were baptized with water -- is the Holy Spirit poured out on the lost?

 

[Sirk]

I baptized my wife and now I can take her to the planet xenorb with me. Which I will rule over and be fruitful and multiply.

Sorry, I'm in a playful mood today.

 

[posthuman]

It comes across to me by you using Jn 4:10 you were trying to make "water" of Jn 3:5 to mean "spirit".

have you noticed that John 3:5 and John 4:10 are totally separate conversations with totally separate people? or that i hadn't mentioned John 3:5 at all until now?
it comes across to me that you don't read books and epistles, you only read single sentences and sometimes only parts of sentences.

 

[dcontroversal]

Point has been made and refuted,

1. There is no proof the thief was not baptized under John and became a criminal.
2. This is not a new testament example, while Jesus was alive He could save anyone He wanted to by His words, after He died, he is under His own law and to save the thief without the baptism of Eph. 4:5 (water baptism) he would be unjust.

Hebrews 9:16-17 (NKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

Flipper,

First of all you are correct as there is no evidence either way concerning baptism and therefore your use of it to try and prove that he had baptism before his death is moot as well..

Second, It can somewhat be gleaned that a man who is being crucified Roman style because of being a thief and a murderer can ALLEVIATE ANY SALVATION AND BAPTISM BEFORE THE INCIDENT ON THE CROSS AS...

NO MURDERER HATH ETERNAL LIFE DWELLING IN HIM.....SO ...

It stands to reason that this man was saved that day on the cross without...

1. Baptism
2. Church membership
3. Good works

Now this jives, because the bible teaches biblical salvation void of the three listed!

 

[dcontroversal]

have you noticed that John 3:5 and John 4:10 are totally separate conversations with totally separate people? or that i hadn't mentioned John 3:5 at all until now?
it comes across to me that you don't read books and epistles, you only read single sentences and sometimes only parts of sentences.

I would agree with this assessment and add...not to mention twisting words out of context and applying words and principles where they do not belong......

 

[SeaBass]

Your logic is flawed and water comes before spirit in John 3:5 and is indicative of being born of the flesh and has nothing to do with water baptism....

Your other uses of water and the word MUST is also flawed and contrary....BAPTISM is a PICTURE OF THE SALVATION THAT ONE ALREADY POSSESSES and does not add to or supplement biblical salvation!

WAS JESUS the SON of GOD before his baptism????? YES HE WAS!

In Jn 3:5 and Cor 12:13 list the same 2 elements regardless of order. Those two elements are "spirit" and "water".


We have seen in this thread the role "water" has in this new birth, that being water baptism.

The role of "spirit" in the new birth is the Holy Spirit, by means of His word begets men....." Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" james 1:18. Peter said "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." So men are "begat though the gospel" 1 Cor 4:15. So the Holy Spirit uses His word to teach men, the Holy Spirit's gospel word acts upon the hearts of men bringing about a belief in men'shearts teaching men they are lost, need to become a Christian through water baptism, the new birth.

 

[dcontroversal]

I baptized my wife and now I can take her to the planet xenorb with me. Which I will rule over and be fruitful and multiply.

Sorry, I'm in a playful mood today.

HAHAHHA do you have your special golden plates from an angel called MORON-I and did your long lost relative get to cross the magically frozen Mississippi river back when they got run out of the previous state that they were in?

 

[SeaBass]

seems to me it's not up to us to decide who is saved and who is lost, and perhaps God gave us the scripture as it is so that we wouldn't put our faith in a ritual, but in His Son.

in Acts 10:44-48, many received the Holy Ghost before they were baptized with water -- is the Holy Spirit poured out on the lost?

In Acts 10 the baptism with the HG had nothing to do with thier personal salvation, they were lost until they obeyed Peter's command to be water baptized, the same baptism that remits sins of Acts 2;38. They were not saved until they "worked righteousness" vese 35, and they worked righteousnes by obeying God's righteous command to be water baptized, THEN they were accepted with God.

 

[posthuman]

In Jn 3:5 and Cor 12:13 list the same 2 elements regardless of order. Those two elements are "spirit" and "water".

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
(1 Corinthians 12:13)

sorry but i don't see "water" mentioned in this verse at all.. . ??

 

[Jabberjaw]

Flipper,

First of all you are correct as there is no evidence either way concerning baptism and therefore your use of it to try and prove that he had baptism before his death is moot as well..

Second, It can somewhat be gleaned that a man who is being crucified Roman style because of being a thief and a murderer can ALLEVIATE ANY SALVATION AND BAPTISM BEFORE THE INCIDENT ON THE CROSS AS...

NO MURDERER HATH ETERNAL LIFE DWELLING IN HIM.....SO ...

It stands to reason that this man was saved that day on the cross without...

1. Baptism
2. Church membership
3. Good works

Now this jives, because the bible teaches biblical salvation void of the three listed!

Jesus was still alive, His testament was not in force, now read this slower, maybe it will sink in:

Hebrews 9:16-17 (NKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

After the death of Jesus, He could not save the thief even if He wanted to, not without violating His own testament making Himself unjust.

The thief is not a NT example!