S
Sirk
Guest
You can't name a goldfish Trent and then call him in a baby voice after you thrown your pizza in the oven.
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You are very deceptive and bordering on lying.....is not this the title of your post?
Salvation Not Possible Without Works
And have you not argued your works and Baptism which is a work of righteousness for salvation and or necessary for salvation...
Your a joke dude...for real!
John 4:10 If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him and he would have given thee living water.
John 7:38, 39 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Jesus Christ himself refers to the holy Spirit as living water.
John 3:5,6 Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [What does he mean by 'water' here?] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Physical birth - that which is born of the flesh is flesh.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
what is amazing (although you will not see it) is that either of those interpretations of water in John 3: 5 are more realistic, More contextual, and more in keeping with the word of God than your baptismal interpretation.
If jesus meant baptism, he would have plainly said so. and not let Nicodemus (who would have never even thought baptism) think it meant something else.
We must keep the faith and preserve the doctrine as given to us by Christ through His apostles wich set the foundation in wich we must be carefull laborers and good stewarts of God's house not to be in disorder but be of order not knitpicking what we like but taking a balanced good gospel not anulling Our master's commandments but upholding them as they are all vital to our faith remember a divided house cannot stand so we must be in order embracing all sspects of the faith a true sound doctrine
L
Linda70
Guest
The use of John 3:5 is a popular "proof-text" for those who teach the heresy of baptismal regeneration. Those who teach this heresy claim that to be "born of water" refers to salvation This teaching is false for the following reasons:
(1) The passage says absolutely nothing about baptism.
(2) Jesus is contrasting the natural birth with the spiritual birth. Thus "born of water" refers to the tiny unborn baby enclosed in a sack of water in his mother's womb; and when the water breaks he is born of water.
(3) In this same passage, Christ taught that salvation is by faith alone and not by ritual or works (John 3:14-18,36).
John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
The context of John 3 is BELIEVE, not get water baptized.
(1) The passage says absolutely nothing about baptism.
(2) Jesus is contrasting the natural birth with the spiritual birth. Thus "born of water" refers to the tiny unborn baby enclosed in a sack of water in his mother's womb; and when the water breaks he is born of water.
(3) In this same passage, Christ taught that salvation is by faith alone and not by ritual or works (John 3:14-18,36).
John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
The context of John 3 is BELIEVE, not get water baptized.
The NT speaks of four Gospels. Not just one.
Paul preached the Gospel which was commited unto him by the Lord Jesus Christ (Gal. 1:11-12) and that was the Gospel of the Grace of God (1 Cor. 15:1-6).
Peter preached the Gospel of the Kingdom in Acts 2:38. He did not preach the Gospel of the Death, Burial, and Resurrection. The Gospel of the Death, Burial, and Resurrection had not even been revealed yet.
Paul did preach something different than Paul. The Gospel of the Grace of God was revealed to Paul by God Himself.
Once Peter understood that salvation had now come to the Gentiles and that the Gospel of the Kingdom was no longer in effect, he came along board with Paul (See Acts 15).
When you read the book of Acts, you should notice that there is a transition from the Gospel of the Kingdom (For Israel) to the Gospel of the Grace of God (Salvation now open to the Gentile Nations).
Today in the Church Age, there is only one Gospel that is in effect and that is the Gospel of the Death, Burial and Resurrection (1 Cor. 15:1-6). But in the time of Jacob's trouble; God will be once again dealing with the Nation of Israel. Hence; as a result, the Gospel of the Kingdom will be preached in the time of Jacob's trouble. The Gospel of the Kingdom is NOT the Gospel of the Grace of God. Things that are different are NOT the same.
Anyone who preaches the Gospel of the Grace of God (Paul's Gospel) in the time of Jacob's trouble will be preaching a false gospel.
The Gospel of the Kingdom is about a Messianic Kingdom, and that is why the Gospel of the Kingdom is Jewish. Therefore, the right Gospel to be preached in the tribulation period will be the Gospel of the Kingdom.
And close to the very end of the time of Jacob's trouble, an Angel from Heaven will have the everlasting Gospel to preach to all nations in the world for a witness unto them that the LORD is coming soon. And that they need to fear God, and give glory to Him, and to worship Him (see Rev. 14:6-7).
Now go and read it. It is there. You need to get that distinction. You need to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Tim. 2:15).
Yes we are in the last days now. It is no wonder why the apostasy is so great in the Church. Why there is so much sensuality in the pulpits, the rock music being brought into the congregations and assemblies in many of the fellowships out there. And all the modern versions which are just perversions which come from the Vatican (NIV, ESV, NLT, NASB, Mess, etc.), yes we are definitely living in the last days.
What about the time of Jacob's trouble???
And what about the 1,000 year literal and Messianic Reign of the Lord Jesus Christ?
Well, he may have a chance to get saved during the time of Jacob's trouble (tribulation), depending on how much light they received in this dispensation which we are now in. And for those that will be able to get saved in the tribulation, it will be harder to get saved since salvation will be by Faith AND Works (Rev. 14:9-12).
Wrong again. The 144,000 are literal, physical Jews, who are sealed by the seal of God upon their forehead:
Revelation 7:1-8
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
7 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, [SUP]3 [/SUP]saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
When you read that passage, where do you get that somehow it is figurative???
Let me help you out. It is not figurative. It is LITERAL.
J
jjtj22
Guest
Jesus died before the thieves.
So the soldiers came, and broke the legs of the first man and of the other who was crucified with Him; but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. John 19:32 and 33
J
jjtj22
Guest
We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong. Luke 23:41
Your argument that he was saved by the old covenant is false. The thief did not fullfill the requirements of the OT. He died after Jesus effectively placing him in the new covenant making your stance of necessary water baptism false.
Where in the bible does it say whether the thief was baptized or not? The fact the thief died before Jesus was resurrected would also be a different baptism than what Christians have today so the argument about the thief is irrelevant.To all that believe baptism is a must for salvation, I politely say this....
What if the plane I took to the land of Israel crashed before I was able to get to the Jordan river and be baptized? Would that mean I'd go to hell because I didn't complete the task? Of course it wouldn't! Look at the thief on the cross who had accepted Yeshua. He wasn't able to climb down from the cross and be baptized before he died on the cross. Yet Yeshua said he would be in paradise that very same day. Yeshua is the Savior. Not 99% Him and 1% us.
People are very bent on works. It's nothing new. But I respect you all. We all as a church need to be better at being in one accord. It's through the Word that this is possible.
J
jjtj22
Guest
From the second that Jesus died the covenant took effect and he had already given His blood for the forgivness of our sins.
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. Matthew 26:28
The new covenant its about Jesus taking away our sins; like he did with the thieve on the cross.
And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” Romans 11:27
The new covenant is of the Spirit therefore only one baptism of the Holy Spirit.
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6
The thief on the cross died under the new covenant because Jesus cleanse him with his blood. He could not have been saved under a law that he broke. The bible tells us that a covenant takes place the moment the testator dies. Jesus died before the thief on the side of him died. This is an example that water baptism is not necesary for our salvation only Jesus doing it for us and us believing that He has done it for us. the thief could have not been saved under a law that he had to perform in order to be saved, he got saved under grace that if we have faith we are saved. The apostles believed this too.
Taken from:
The Thief on the Cross. | quakergirl
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. Matthew 26:28
The new covenant its about Jesus taking away our sins; like he did with the thieve on the cross.
And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” Romans 11:27
The new covenant is of the Spirit therefore only one baptism of the Holy Spirit.
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6
The thief on the cross died under the new covenant because Jesus cleanse him with his blood. He could not have been saved under a law that he broke. The bible tells us that a covenant takes place the moment the testator dies. Jesus died before the thief on the side of him died. This is an example that water baptism is not necesary for our salvation only Jesus doing it for us and us believing that He has done it for us. the thief could have not been saved under a law that he had to perform in order to be saved, he got saved under grace that if we have faith we are saved. The apostles believed this too.
Taken from:
The Thief on the Cross. | quakergirl
Around n around we go. No one knows where, no end in sight.
Going in circles for 500 years, how many more?
Do you realize that the Nicene Creed states that there is ONE baptism. Historically, the Orthodox Church, including the two bodies that broke from the Church, the Orientals and the RCC, have never had a problem among themselves regarding baptism. There has never been a person who tried to impose some other false teaching regarding it during the 1500 years prior to the Reformation. Only one person, Tertullian disagreed with infant baptism in the 3rd century.
You can give all the credit to Zwingli, who was the first of the reformers to discount all sacraments. He basically took the Gnostic approach that all material is evil and worthless which cannot convey any spiritual grace. Unfortunately all Protestants have essentially adopted that viewpoint, even for those that do have the two ceremonies, baptism and communion. But neither is considered salvific.
So, have at it. You all can go around and around for the next hundred, or more years until Christ comes again, never to know or understand what it is all about.
Going in circles for 500 years, how many more?
Do you realize that the Nicene Creed states that there is ONE baptism. Historically, the Orthodox Church, including the two bodies that broke from the Church, the Orientals and the RCC, have never had a problem among themselves regarding baptism. There has never been a person who tried to impose some other false teaching regarding it during the 1500 years prior to the Reformation. Only one person, Tertullian disagreed with infant baptism in the 3rd century.
You can give all the credit to Zwingli, who was the first of the reformers to discount all sacraments. He basically took the Gnostic approach that all material is evil and worthless which cannot convey any spiritual grace. Unfortunately all Protestants have essentially adopted that viewpoint, even for those that do have the two ceremonies, baptism and communion. But neither is considered salvific.
So, have at it. You all can go around and around for the next hundred, or more years until Christ comes again, never to know or understand what it is all about.
But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.
(Titus 3:4-8)
strangely it appears the scripture teaches that salvation is according to mercy, and accomplished through the washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit, not by water,
and that good works are a fruit and a result of salvation, not a prerequisite or justification of themselves.
why is this hard to see?
praise God, who opens the eyes of the blind!
He sets the captives free, and every good thing is a gift from Him!
i can't boast of anything i've done or anything i do - there is one name by which we are saved: God is with us!
The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.
(Titus 3:4-8)
strangely it appears the scripture teaches that salvation is according to mercy, and accomplished through the washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit, not by water,
and that good works are a fruit and a result of salvation, not a prerequisite or justification of themselves.
why is this hard to see?
praise God, who opens the eyes of the blind!
He sets the captives free, and every good thing is a gift from Him!
i can't boast of anything i've done or anything i do - there is one name by which we are saved: God is with us!
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
it does not matter.
Everyone from adam to today has and will always be saved the same way. By faith.
God did not have different works in different ages people must do to be saved. It has always been by faith. People hold the NY people (who actually have real access to the salvation of God already paid for) actually working to save themselves with things no OT person would be held up to. Really???
J
J-Kay-2
Guest
I just came on and read the OP question. Scanned a few remarks.
What I say probably won't hold water... Pun intended.
No one knows the heart of the man who went into the Baptistry or
the act of Baptism, where ever it took place. Who can condemn him
simply because the Church baptized him as an alcoholic ? Who can
say he won't give up his alcoholism?
I was involved in occult, addicted to porn, when I cried out to the
Lord to save me. I got baptized still interested in the supernatural.
No longer letting porn be apart of my life. I was addicted to smoking,
along with mixing the psychic books, novels, ouija board. All after
being baptized. Why? Because no one told me it was wrong.
Finally one day a booklet came to me and I discovered ouija board
was satanic, along with horoscopes, etc. Remember I had been
baptized. Yes I say the man can still be delivered of his alcohol and
any other addiction he might have.
I might add, after my repentance of the supernatural fascination,
smoking, etc., I did go back for Baptisim again, this time in a Creek
that washed away many a sin. The Churches used it for that
purpose.
Let's not be so judgmental regarding what we don't know about
the man. Let's pray for him and his friend. I believe he can be totally
delivered and become a great man of God if the Lord chooses him.
What I say probably won't hold water... Pun intended.
No one knows the heart of the man who went into the Baptistry or
the act of Baptism, where ever it took place. Who can condemn him
simply because the Church baptized him as an alcoholic ? Who can
say he won't give up his alcoholism?
I was involved in occult, addicted to porn, when I cried out to the
Lord to save me. I got baptized still interested in the supernatural.
No longer letting porn be apart of my life. I was addicted to smoking,
along with mixing the psychic books, novels, ouija board. All after
being baptized. Why? Because no one told me it was wrong.
Finally one day a booklet came to me and I discovered ouija board
was satanic, along with horoscopes, etc. Remember I had been
baptized. Yes I say the man can still be delivered of his alcohol and
any other addiction he might have.
I might add, after my repentance of the supernatural fascination,
smoking, etc., I did go back for Baptisim again, this time in a Creek
that washed away many a sin. The Churches used it for that
purpose.
Let's not be so judgmental regarding what we don't know about
the man. Let's pray for him and his friend. I believe he can be totally
delivered and become a great man of God if the Lord chooses him.
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Catholic teach baptism forgive sin from born to the time of baptism
Catechism of the catholic no:
978 "When we made our first profession of faith while receiving the holy Baptism that cleansed us, the forgiveness we received then was so full and complete that there remained in us absolutely nothing left to efface, neither original sin nor offenses committed by our own will, nor was there left any penalty to suffer in order to expiate them. . . . Yet the grace of Baptism delivers no one from all the weakness of nature. On the contrary, we must still combat the movements of concupiscence that never cease leading us into evil "[SUP]523
She said baptism cleansed sin absolutely nothing left
but, after clean our weakness not delivers that will produce new sin.
Catholic believe there are 2 way for forgiveness.
1. repent
2 baptism
Catechism of the Catholic no:
[/SUP]981 After his Resurrection, Christ sent his apostles "so that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all nations."[SUP]526[/SUP] The apostles and their successors carry out this "ministry of reconciliation," not only by announcing to men God's forgiveness merited for us by Christ, and calling them to conversion and faith; but also by communicating to them the forgiveness of sins in Baptism, and reconciling them with God and with the Church through the power of the keys, received from Christ:[SUP]527[/SUP]
[The Church] has received the keys of the Kingdom of heaven so that, in her, sins may be forgiven through Christ's blood and the Holy Spirit's action. In this Church, the soul dead through sin comes back to life in order to live with Christ, whose grace has saved us.[SUP]528[/SUP]
Catechism of the catholic no:
978 "When we made our first profession of faith while receiving the holy Baptism that cleansed us, the forgiveness we received then was so full and complete that there remained in us absolutely nothing left to efface, neither original sin nor offenses committed by our own will, nor was there left any penalty to suffer in order to expiate them. . . . Yet the grace of Baptism delivers no one from all the weakness of nature. On the contrary, we must still combat the movements of concupiscence that never cease leading us into evil "[SUP]523
She said baptism cleansed sin absolutely nothing left
but, after clean our weakness not delivers that will produce new sin.
Catholic believe there are 2 way for forgiveness.
1. repent
2 baptism
Catechism of the Catholic no:
[/SUP]981 After his Resurrection, Christ sent his apostles "so that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all nations."[SUP]526[/SUP] The apostles and their successors carry out this "ministry of reconciliation," not only by announcing to men God's forgiveness merited for us by Christ, and calling them to conversion and faith; but also by communicating to them the forgiveness of sins in Baptism, and reconciling them with God and with the Church through the power of the keys, received from Christ:[SUP]527[/SUP]
[The Church] has received the keys of the Kingdom of heaven so that, in her, sins may be forgiven through Christ's blood and the Holy Spirit's action. In this Church, the soul dead through sin comes back to life in order to live with Christ, whose grace has saved us.[SUP]528[/SUP]
Acts 19
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.
We all fall short of the glory of God, you can find numerous places in the bible where people have gotten drunk on their ass and though they should not do this, they were not smitten by God into non-existence. Even Christ made wine from water, even though the wedding party was already soused. God knows the groanings of us, and our drinking habits, they are as they were then.
Yes, and some will say that a drunkard will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but it does not say drunk with what. There are many ways to be drunk, and not with alcohol. Besides that, once you die, you are not an alcoholic, or any other substance abuser, for that was laid with the flesh, and not the spirit
Your argument the thief is an example of NT salvation is false, in the OT Jesus could save anyone He wanted to, He was not bound by His own teaching of the New Covenant, after His testament became in force (after the death of the testator) He would not have been able to speak the words to save the thief without breaking His own testament (covenant).
Jesus also kept the sabbath too, and took part in all old testament worship as well, but He nailed it to His cross.