Does water baptism save us

[SeaBass]

Also, Ephesians 5.26 speaks of 'the washing of water by the word'.

Jn 3:5-----------------water
1Cor12:13------------baptized
Tts 3:5------------washing of regeneration
Eph 5:26-----------washing of water


All verse refer to the new birth with equivalent terms referring to water baptism, not a physical birth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

why do you take "born" as figurative here?
and what does Christ mean "that which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of spirit is spirit" ?

following your interpretation, He means water baptism is carnal?

true,

if that water is baptism, he is making it figurative, not literal.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus comes right out in verse 6 relating it to verse 5 - That which is born of the flesh is flesh; that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

I never said that Titus 3:5 nor 1 Cor. 12:13 had anything to do with physical birth . . Titus 3:5 is regarding the new birth - that which is born of the Spirit is spirit and 1 Corinthians 12:13 has to do with the new birth - the only way we are baptized into one body is by the one Spirit and we have been made to drink into that one Spirit . . .that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. . . .meaning to be born again! I give up - you are just all over the place now.

Are you ever going to answer my questions in #213?

amen, And titus 3: makes makes it clear. the washing is of the HS, not of some man, in some body of water. Of God himself.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jn 3:5-----------------water (FLESH)
1Cor12:13------------baptized (PERFORMED BY THE SPIRIT)
Tts 3:5------------washing of regeneration (PERFORMED BY THE SPIRIT)
Eph 5:26-----------washing of water (PERFORMED BY THE WORD) As jesus said in John 6. It is the spirit who gives life, the words he speak (the word) is spirit and life)

All verse refer to the new birth with equivalent terms referring to water baptism, not a physical birth.

non of them refere to water baptism, that is your hugely mistranslated and twisted idea.

 

[SeaBass]

(in re: Jesus meant the same thing by "living water" talking with the woman at the well as He did by "born of water" talking with Nicodemus)

i didn't. you asked me flatly if i did. i told you i didn't.

why did i point at John 4:10? honestly i didn't read the first few pages of the thread; i saw you ask why people take "water" figuratively and not "spirit" - and responded to that, showing you where Christ used "water" figuratively.

i'm sorry you assumed i was talking about a verse i hadn't mentioned - and i apologize for interjecting a comment without reading the whole thread. but i thought i made myself clear several pages ago when you first misinterpreted my post & intention.

In Jn 4:10 Jesus was not using water figurative for the physical birth. So if 'water' of Jn 3:5 is physical birth, then 'water' in Jn 3:5 and Jn 4:10 cannot mean the same thing.

You posted "i saw you ask why people take "water" figuratively and not "spirit" - and responded to that, showing you where Christ used "water" figuratively.



Are you saying "other people" use Jn 4:10 to try and make water in Jn 3:5 figurative, but you do not do that?

 

[SeaBass]

Anyone notice in Leviticus anytime someone touches something unclean they are to wash themselves, clothing...etc so they can become clean again? I know we aren't bound by those laws, but I do find that interesting. Anytime an Israelite comes in contact with something unclean they are to cleanse them self with water.

Water cleansed the Earth in the time of Noah.
The Hebrew slaves passed through the waters of the Red Sea leaving behind their slave life, and into a new life. Paul stated this was a form of baptism.
In Ezekiel 36 the prophecy is about Jesus and sprinkling water:
24 “I will take you out of those nations, gather you together, and bring you back to your own land.25 Then I will sprinkle pure water on you and make you pure. I will wash away all your filth, the filth from those nasty idols, and I will make you pure.26 I will also put a new spirit in you to change your way of thinking. I will take out the heart of stone from your body and give you a tender, human heart.27 I will put my Spirit inside you[a] and change you so that you will obey my laws. You will carefully obey my commands.


What is obviously a purification process. The Israelites are commanded to do it, and the apostles preached on baptism. In the NT people were baptized. If baptism wasn't important then there would be no scripture on it in the NT and it would not have been prophesied in the OT.

And to those who say being born of water and spirit means the actual birthing process, well.... everyone knows that an unborn baby is surrounded by water. Every person is born of water. That childbirth is a natural process, and has been going on since Eve had kids. By even holding to that belief you are saying that a baby who died in the womb won't go to Heaven. They were never born. They died beforehand. Being born of water is strictly about a spiritual rebirth.

What about those born C-section?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

In Jn 4:10 Jesus was not using water figurative for the physical birth. So if 'water' of Jn 3:5 is physical birth, then 'water' in Jn 3:5 and Jn 4:10 cannot mean the same thing.

You posted "i saw you ask why people take "water" figuratively and not "spirit" - and responded to that, showing you where Christ used "water" figuratively.

Are you saying "other people" use Jn 4:10 to try and make water in Jn 3:5 figurative, but you do not do that?

SeaBass: I know you are just trying to trip people up now - In John 4:10 'living water' is figurative because actually there is no such thing as 'living water' except whn refers to the Spirit (as it does).

Water in John 3:5 is literal water which is compared to that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Unless you are born again of the Spirit you are not born again - water is not the second birth - water cannot make you a child of God. Being born again of Spirit is partaking of the divine nature; being born again of the Spirit makes you part of the body of Christ and being born again of the Spirit makes you a child of God. WATER cannot do that! There I answered the questions for you! lol

 

[Elizabeth619]

How can dunking in water create within someone the new man, that new creation in Christ? How does water make you a child of God?

Wow. Kind of disrespectful to say something like that don't you think? Since you refer to baptism as "dunking in water" it is clear you don't have enough understanding about what baptism is in the first place.

 

[Elizabeth619]

What about those born C-section?

They are going to Hell I suppose. I was born of a c-section. I guess I am damned.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

They are going to Hell I suppose. I was born of a c-section. I guess I am damned.

if God cut you out of the world because you could not be born any other way, and bore you into his family, you can be assured you are going to heaven

 

[posthuman]

In Jn 4:10 Jesus was not using water figurative for the physical birth. So if 'water' of Jn 3:5 is physical birth, then 'water' in Jn 3:5 and Jn 4:10 cannot mean the same thing.

You posted "i saw you ask why people take "water" figuratively and not "spirit" - and responded to that, showing you where Christ used "water" figuratively.



Are you saying "other people" use Jn 4:10 to try and make water in Jn 3:5 figurative, but you do not do that?

no. you're the only person i know who takes John 4:10 and John 3:5 to mean the same thing (water baptism) or tries to interpret one of the two verses by the other.

although, i haven't really talked deeply with Baptist theologians about these two verses in particular. maybe i know other people that read it that way but i'm not particularly aware of that part of their thinking.

when you asked me yesterday about John 4:10, i pointed at John chapter 7, just like peacefulbeliever did. at the time i wasn't aware that you were focused on John 3:5. i never linked the two verses together apart from discussing the link you espoused.

just like most of the other people who've posted in the last 30 hours in this thread, and like Nicodemus, i believe Christ refers to physical birth talking to Nicodemus, and to the Spirit, the Word and the Life when he spoke to the woman at the well.

is that clear yet, i hope?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Wow. Kind of disrespectful to say something like that don't you think? Since you refer to baptism as "dunking in water" it is clear you don't have enough understanding about what baptism is in the first place.

Nope - I don't think it was disrespectful; well maybe to those who think being immersed in water can make you a child of God and if it was taken as disrespect then I do apologize.

I know full well what baptism is - and baptism is water is ceremonial, an outside cleansing. Being baptized in water does not make you a child of God. What makes you a child of God is being born again of the Spirit.

 

[posthuman]

What about those born C-section?

figurative, spiritual C-section?

or literal, flesh/water C-section?

 

[SeaBass]

if you take "born of water" to mean 'water baptism' isn't that just a wee bit figurative ?

1 Pet 3:20,21:

OT type: saved by water
NT antitype: saved by water

Water refers to literal water, understood to be water baptism for they were immersed into literal water.

slow down hoss. Jesus tells him he must be born again.
that means though he's already been born once (i.e. 'of water', physical birth) he needs to be reborn (i.e. 'of Spirit')
if He meant he needed to be born of flesh, of water baptism, and of the spirit, He would have said "ye must be born again and again"
Nicodemus understood this to mean a physical thing. he didn't ask Jesus "how can a man be baptized again?" -- but "can a man crawl back into his mothers womb?"
[/FONT]


obviously Nicodemus understood that Christ wasn't talking about a ritual water baptism, or He would have asked him "can a man wade back into the mikvah a second time" instead of the womb. He understood that a man couldn't be physically born of flesh a second time, but he took Jesus to mean exactly what Jesus said: "one must be born again" not "baptized again"

Must be born again.

If the new birth consists of physical birth, then Jesus is telling Nicodemus he "must be physically born" as if Jesus could not figure out he was already physically born. The word "must"....how can you command, instruct someone to be physically born when they already are?


"Must be born again"

"Again" implies one has already been born once (physical birth) so he must be born again (spiritual birth). Jesus is not instructing Nicodemus to be born again physically, they both understood the physical impossibility of that.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Now come the sarcastic remarks . . . I really don't like it when a thread turns that way.

 

[Elizabeth619]

Nope - I don't think it was disrespectful; well maybe to those who think being immersed in water can make you a child of God and if it was taken as disrespect then I do apologize.

I know full well what baptism is - and baptism is water is ceremonial, an outside cleansing. Being baptized in water does not make you a child of God. What makes you a child of God is being born again of the Spirit.

So why did Ezekiel prophecy Iwill sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 36:25

​This prophecy is about Jesus.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

You have yet to show me the verse that speaks of gospelS


Paul preached the same one gospel as Peter....."But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed." Gal 1:23


Paul now preaches the faith he once destroyed means Paul was preaching the same gospel faith that Peter and other apostles taught. SAUL once destroyed the one gospel that he now preaches it.

Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles (Rom. 11:13).

And the Gospel which Paul preached (1 Cor. 15:1-6) is NOT the same Gospel which the Lord Jesus Christ and His eleven apostles preached (Matt. 4:23 & 9:35) during His 3 and a half year ministry.

The Gospel of the Kingdom is what our Lord preached during His ministry.

The Gospel of the Death, Burial, and Resurrection (1 Cor. 15:1-6) does not show up until after Paul.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

They are going to Hell I suppose. I was born of a c-section. I guess I am damned.

You were still born in water.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So why did Ezekiel prophecy Iwill sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 36:25

​This prophecy is about Jesus.

that would be an internal cleaning would it not?

 

[ChosenbyHim]

So why did Ezekiel prophecy Iwill sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 36:25

​This prophecy is about Jesus.

No it is not about Jesus. The Lord Jesus Christ did not and does not have any impurities. And he did not have any idols either. Jesus Christ was and is perfect and sinless.