Does water baptism save us

[eternally-gratefull]

Baptize her under the old covenant?

How did anyone in the Old Covenant get saved any different than us? No one was saved BY the old covenant.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Baptize her under the old covenant?

So water baptism is the old covenant baptism and being baptized with holy Spirit is the new covenant baptism. I can agree with that.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So water baptism is the old covenant baptism and being baptized with holy Spirit is the new covenant baptism. I can agree with that.

actually, to be a made priest according to the mosaic covenant, they had to be baptized in water (wink)

 

[Atwood]

Many many times the Bible offers salvation to man for only 1 thing the man does: Trust Christ as Savior, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, Have faith in Him. Many, many times the only thing a man is to do is have faith in Christ. A few times some other expression is used; but these must be understood in the general, overwhelming Bible context. The Lord cannot lie. If he said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved (and He has said that), yet when you got to the Pearly Gates you were rejected, though you had believed, that would be at best false advertising, which our Lord would never do.

Once (John 1:12) the condition is receive Him, but then it is redefined as believing. One saying (repeated more than once from Joel) is "Whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be saved." But this is a call of faith, as context indicates.

Romans 10: "11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believes on him shall not be put to shame. 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: 13 for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the LORD shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?
One may exercise faith by calling on His name.

Repent is used, but Repent (metanoia) is primarily a change of mind, not sorrow for sin, nor promising to turn over a new leaf. The repentence (change of mind) that saves is the change from not-trusting-Christ to trusting-in-Christ (faith again).

As to water baptism:
1) The Bible never says water baptism saves,
2) baptism is not something a person does, but something done to him (he is passive).
3) inasmuch as Spirit baptism puts a man into the Body of Christ (1 Cor 12:13) and inasmuch as our incorporation into Christ puts us on the cross with Christ when He died and crucifies our Old Man (Romans 6), one can call Spirit baptism salvific -- but it is not something a man does, but is done to Him.

No, water baptism is not essential to salvation. There is but one condition of salvation in the Bible, faith. In the OT people didn't distinguish the Trinity as we do. Now we must trust in God the Son. In OT times, men trusted YHWH without distinguishing the Trinity so far as we know.

"that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

I testify to these truths as one who has searched the Bible from cover to cover on salvation and marked all the passages in pink with a highlighter, including passages that some might use to argue against my conclusions.

e

 

[Elizabeth619]

I can't understand how some of these ridiculous questions come up. Every human being is born from the womb and they are encased in water - that which is born of the flesh is flesh. What is it that is so hard to understand?

"If one is not born of water then they cannot be born of spirit." If one is not born of water - how did they get here? Usually, babies that aborted are fetuses (not to lessen the act of abortion) and are not fully developed. A person born by way of a C-section was born in water. The only way a person can be alive and here is if they were born in water - that which is born of the flesh is flesh.

It's what oyu have been preaching. Learn about how dead fetuses are removed from women, and actually when the amniotic sac is and when the fluid really forms. Might need to learn that amniotic fluid isn't actually water. An ectopic pregnancy sometimes has little or no amniotic fluid as well. I am just saying by what you are preaching is that a baby that dies in the womb may be lost.

 

[Elizabeth619]

So water baptism is the old covenant baptism and being baptized with holy Spirit is the new covenant baptism. I can agree with that.

I never said that. You are intentionally twisting words. The woman at the well was during the time of the old covenant. Even if she was baptized it would not have been a NT baptism. It is evident that water baptism was mentioned during the NT. Deny it all you want to. It is there.

 

[Atwood]

When a baby is in womb, is he not born of water? What holds him in the womb? And when murdered, doesn't the water flow? I give you credit for coming up with what looks like a conundrum. When your mother was cut open to pull you out, didn't water gush?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I never said that. You are intentionally twisting words. The woman at the well was during the time of the old covenant. Even if she was baptized it would not have been a NT baptism. It is evident that water baptism was mentioned during the NT. Deny it all you want to. It is there.

It was practiced by Israel since Moses first baptised Arron and his sons in the jordan river setting them apart to be priests of God, and to every priest after.

It was done by John, to announce the kingdom was at hand, and to identify who Jesus was.

So it was nothing new. and not special just for the NT

 

[posthuman]

actually, to be a made priest according to the mosaic covenant, they had to be baptized in water (wink)

for reference: after Aaron's two sons were killed, the Lord gave this command to Moses concerning Aaron:

But in this way Aaron shall come into the Holy Place: with a bull from the herd for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering. He shall put on the holy linen coat and shall have the linen undergarment on his body, and he shall tie the linen sash around his waist, and wear the linen turban; these are the holy garments. He shall bathe his body in water and then put them on.
(Leviticus 16:3-4)

not just one washing, but repeated here after making a sacrifice for atonement in the holy place:

Then Aaron shall come into the tent of meeting and shall take off the linen garments that he put on when he went into the Holy Place and shall leave them there. And he shall bathe his body in water in a holy place and put on his garments and come out and offer his burnt offering and the burnt offering of the people and make atonement for himself and for the people. And the fat of the sin offering he shall burn on the altar. And he who lets the goat go to Azazel shall wash his clothes and bathe his body in water, and afterward he may come into the camp.
And the bull for the sin offering and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the Holy Place, shall be carried outside the camp. Their skin and their flesh and their dung shall be burned up with fire. And he who burns them shall wash his clothes and bathe his body in water, and afterward he may come into the camp.
(Leviticus 16:23-28)

so Aaron was to be washed with water more than once, and not only Aaron, but everyone who came into contact with the symbols of the sin offering.
this symbolic act became tradition among the Jews for putting away former filth and taking on a new purity. John baptized with water - symbolically into repentance - but Christ baptizes us truly, with fire and with spirit, into His death and resurrection!

how blessed we are! the glory of the latter houses is truly greater than the former things!

 

[Elizabeth619]

And that was a miracle and the only recorded instance of someone being filled with the spirit in the womb.

So now unbabies do not have souls. If they did then you would have to backpeddle your argument.

LEts not even talk about Job 10:10
Psalm 139:13 and Jer 1:5

 

[Atwood]

I think that the amniotic fluid is mostly water. And when a woman is about to give birth, her water breaks. The text doesn't require distilled pure water to be water.

Incidentally, John doesn't say, "Be saved," but "Enter the Kingdom of God." Are those exactly the same? How would you know? Did not the Lord Jesus offer the Davidic earthly kingdom to Israel in His great message, "Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand"? Could it be that John 3 with "out of water and Spirit" refers to persons alive to enter the Millennial Kingdom -- and not salvation at all?

I must say that you think out of the box, not bad.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

It's what oyu have been preaching. Learn about how dead fetuses are removed from women, and actually when the amniotic sac is and when the fluid really forms. Might need to learn that amniotic fluid isn't actually water. An ectopic pregnancy sometimes has little or no amniotic fluid as well. I am just saying by what you are preaching is that a baby that dies in the womb may be lost.

John 3:5,6 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Then maybe you can explain why Jesus said what he said in John 3:6. Why did he reiterate or even allude to the flesh?

If a person hasn't ever lived - had the chance to live, I don't believe they would be lost - they never existed for them to be judged.

 

[Elizabeth619]

It was practiced by Israel since Moses first baptised Arron and his sons in the jordan river setting them apart to be priests of God, and to every priest after.

It was done by John, to announce the kingdom was at hand, and to identify who Jesus was.

So it was nothing new. and not special just for the NT

You need to look back and see where I stated that water has been used at a form of purification since the beginning. Never once did I say baptism was only in the NT.

 

[Elizabeth619]

When a baby is in womb, is he not born of water? What holds him in the womb? And when murdered, doesn't the water flow? I give you credit for coming up with what looks like a conundrum. When your mother was cut open to pull you out, didn't water gush?

Actually it is suctioned out.

 

[Atwood]

well that would be a different case then.

scripture states God breaths life into a body at birth. that is when the soul is born.

Where does Scripture say
1) God breaths life into a body at birth?
2) that is when the soul is born?

How do you know that the spirit of man is not derived from one's parents, just as the DNA is for the body? How can men be included in Adam's sin if their spirits are not derived from his? How could the Lord insert a sinless spirit (His creation) into a sinful body and contaminate his creation?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You need to look back and see where I stated that water has been used at a form of purification since the beginning. Never once did I say baptism was only in the NT.

My point was. Water did not purify an eternal soul in the OT, any more than it will in the NT.

As you showed. It is God who washes us, Not some man in a body of water. that was my point sis

 

[Atwood]

BTW, I like the smiles on this page, including yours -- despite the one skeleton?

I hope you don't mind my asking you,
how you know "Many miscarriages do not result in birthing the dead fetus"?
That is, how do you know that the word "born" in John 3 does not include all removals of babies from the womb, regardless of means?

 

[jjtj22]

And we circle back to the OT/NT stuff.

it does not matter.

Everyone from adam to today has and will always be saved the same way. By faith.

God did not have different works in different ages people must do to be saved. It has always been by faith. People hold the NY people (who actually have real access to the salvation of God already paid for) actually working to save themselves with things no OT person would be held up to. Really???

Well, exactly

 

[SeaBass]

SeaBass: I know you are just trying to trip people up now - In John 4:10 'living water' is figurative because actually there is no such thing as 'living water' except whn refers to the Spirit (as it does).

Water in John 3:5 is literal water which is compared to that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Unless you are born again of the Spirit you are not born again - water is not the second birth - water cannot make you a child of God. Being born again of Spirit is partaking of the divine nature; being born again of the Spirit makes you part of the body of Christ and being born again of the Spirit makes you a child of God. WATER cannot do that! There I answered the questions for you! lol

Yes, I understand that Jn 4:10 is using water figuratively. The problem is that some try and use the remote figurative meaning of water in Jn 4:10 and apply that figurative meaning of water in Jn 3:5, which is not proper exegesis. Water in Jn 3:5 refers to literal water.

You posted "Unless you are born again of the Spirit you are not born again"

Jesus said ", Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit" ... The new birth is ONE birth that consists of TWO elements: water & spirit. Baptism is the role of the water.

Water in and of it self cannot save nor make one a child of God, it is God that saves. BUt it is the act of being obedient to God in obeying the command to submit to water baptism is the reason God saves.

 

[posthuman]

BTW, I like the smiles on this page, including yours -- despite the one skeleton?

hah hah! the old man of flesh is dead. i left him - figuratively, mind you - under the water.
pardon my avatar; am smiling on the inside, in spirit