Faith and Works

[ChosenbyHim]

Amen! Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. Building the ark was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith, not the origin of it.

Noah's obedience to God (works) had a part in his salvation along with his faith.

Faith is only mentioned two times in the entire Old Testament.

Salvation in the Old Testament was very much different than how it is today in the Church Age under the New Testament.

Now there are some similarities. We do see how Faith was demonstrated by the OT Patriarchs and Heros of the Faith (Heb. 11).

But one must keep in mind is that an OT Saint was not eternally secure like Christians are today. So an OT Saint many times had to secure his standing with God by doing the right kind of works. That's not heresy. That is Bible Doctrine.

By faith Abel offered a sacrifice (Heb. 11:4). Cain demonstrated an evil heart by his evil deeds, while Abel demonstrated a pious heart by his righteous deeds (1 John 3:12); and that Abel offered his sacrifice by faith and Cain did not.

Yep, Abel indeed offered a sacrifice (works), and he offered the right kind of sacrifice (right kind of works). Abel offered the firstlings and fat of his flocks (animal sacrifice) while Cain offered fruit of the ground. (No animal sacrifice: therefore no blood atonement)

While Cain also offered a sacrifice (works), but he offered the wrong kind of sacrifice. So did Cain exercise faith? Sure he did. But he did not do the right kind of works to accompany his faith.


You see; Abel had to do the work of killing the sacrifice and offering and then offer it unto God before he would be respected (Gen. 4:4). WORKS played a role along with faith therefore in his salvation.

 

[VCO]

It takes effort to pay attention.

Oh how man in his pride wants to take credit for some part of his Salvation.

Romans 7:18 (HCSB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh.
For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it.

Galatians 2:19-21 (ESV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

1 Corinthians 2:12-16 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who ⌊comes⌋ from God, so that we may understand what has been freely given to us by God.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] We also speak these things, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But the unbeliever does not welcome what comes from God’s Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to understand it since it is evaluated spiritually.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] The spiritual person, however, can evaluate everything, yet he himself cannot be evaluated by anyone.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For who has known the Lord’s mind, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.

John 14:26 (HCSB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit—the Father will send Him in My name—will teach you all things and remind you of everything I have told you.

NO, if we HEAR with understanding, that is PURELY a work of the HOLY SPIRIT. We do not get to pat ourselves on the back for ANY part of our Salvation. If we have received Jesus Christ as LORD and Master, it is the HOLY SPIRIT that gave us that ability through Faith, which is part of GOD's free gift of HIS GRACE. The fact that we have genuine Faith that produces a desire in us to continually strive to OBEY HIM, validates that the HOLY SPIRIT continually is at work in our hearts. ALL THE GLORY GOES TO GOD.

><>t<><

Go Wolf Pack by the way, I now live in Fallon, NV.

 

[VCO]

Old and New one was justified by grace thru faith.
We are justified by faith alone but upon our faith in the Gospel we receive the Holy Spirit who continues His work of sanctifying us/preparing us for good works, which is a life time work of God. One day at the rapture/resurrection we will be glorified made in His image.

It says to encourage one another as we see THAT DAY COMING!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmGiu9JfbIs

 

[resurrection33]

So when Scripture says Jesus repented that he made man, he admitted he sinned by making mankind and needed to stop sinning?

No. "Repent" means to "change" or "turn from." In our case, it means we must stop sinning. In his case, it meant that he changed his mind about something.

 

[resurrection33]

My burden is light.

If your seeking the spirit. it is no effort at all.

It depends on which verse you are quoting. Check this out:

Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. Matt 7:13 RSV

I would interpret it like this: As long as we resist the temptation to sin, the burden is light. However, we must resist the temptation to sin.

 

[resurrection33]

Thanks.

Again perfect means mature, Not sinless.

No, perfect means perfect.

 

[resurrection33]

I think you will find that in that case "perfect" is a reference to becoming spiritually mature in our Christian Walk. The same Greek word is frequently used to describe spiritual maturity.

No, I think "perfect" means we successfully obey the Lord's commandments.

 

[resurrection33]

Oh how man in his pride wants to take credit for some part of his Salvation.

If you are saying we need to make no effort, you are wrong.

Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. Matt 7:13 RSV

 

[VCO]

No, I think "perfect" means we successfully obey the Lord's commandments.

You personally will not have much luck at keeping them perfectly:

However even if that was a reference to sinlessness, it would still be Biblical, because:
That would be GOD's STANDARD if you thought you could earn your way to heaven by being good. The problem with that idea however, is one tiny slip, one tiny failure to do good, or one hint of anger, or one momentary bad thought, AND YOU BECOME GUILTY OF BRAKING ALL of GOD's LAW all over again.

James 2:10 (NIV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

The most violent inmate on Death Row, is NOT a worse sinner than we are, we are all as bad as him.

Romans 14:23 (NIV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

Proverbs 24:9 (ASV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] The thought of foolishness is sin; And the scoffer is an abomination to men.

Romans 7:19-20 (NIV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
James 4:17 (ASV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] To him therefore that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

1 John 3:17 (ASV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But whoso hath the world's goods, and beholdeth his brother in need, and shutteth up his compassion from him, how doth the love of God abide in him?

James 2:9 (NIV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers.

So are you in the habit of selling possessions to meet the needs of the needy?

Romans 3:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

 

[resurrection33]

You personally will not have much luck at keeping them perfectly:

However even if that was a reference to sinlessness, it would still be Biblical, because:
That would be GOD's STANDARD if you thought you could earn your way to heaven by being good. The problem with that idea however, is one tiny slip, one tiny failure to do good, or one hint of anger, or one momentary bad thought, AND YOU BECOME GUILTY OF BRAKING ALL of GOD's LAW all over again.

James 2:10 (NIV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

The most violent inmate on Death Row, is NOT a worse sinner than we are, we are all as bad as him.

Romans 14:23 (NIV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

Proverbs 24:9 (ASV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] The thought of foolishness is sin; And the scoffer is an abomination to men.

Romans 7:19-20 (NIV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
James 4:17 (ASV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] To him therefore that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

1 John 3:17 (ASV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But whoso hath the world's goods, and beholdeth his brother in need, and shutteth up his compassion from him, how doth the love of God abide in him?

James 2:9 (NIV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers.

So are you in the habit of selling possessions to meet the needs of the needy?

Romans 3:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

I think you are wrong when you say, "You personally will not have much luck at keeping them perfectly." They (the Lord's commandments) are challenging, but I don't think they are all that difficult. No one is putting a gun up to our heads and forcing us to sin. Satan is always tempting us, be we will overcome him.

 

[RedTent]

I think all of what each of you are saying applies. God isn't going to look, even, at our works if we are not doing them through faith. It is because we give ourselves to Him with absolute faith in Him that we are given works to do. Then, God is not watching us for perfection, we are born in sin, we know sin. We cannot be perfect and know sin.

We achieve the perfection we manage through putting on Christ, and working as part of Christ in us. We are still not perfect, we still have knowledge of sin, but as we put on Christ, as we go to the Holy Spirit in us, that part of us is perfect. We have three guideposts for us to live by, the written word, the HS, and how we put on Christ.

Because we belong to God, we have been given a plan of redemption, and that plan is Christ's blood. We are shown that as early as the story of Cain and Abel. They knew that the shadow of Christ's blood was required, even though they didn't understand Christ, yet. Cain knew it required blood but through his own reason, what he produced himself seemed fine to him. God requires absolute humble listening obedience, not our own reasoning. It is only through Christ we are saved, our works simply don't achieve that.

However, we can't say we have absolute faith in God and ignore how He tells us to live. If we did it would show we have faith in something else.

 

[resurrection33]

I think all of what each of you are saying applies. God isn't going to look, even, at our works if we are not doing them through faith. It is because we give ourselves to Him with absolute faith in Him that we are given works to do. Then, God is not watching us for perfection, we are born in sin, we know sin. We cannot be perfect and know sin.

We achieve the perfection we manage through putting on Christ, and working as part of Christ in us. We are still not perfect, we still have knowledge of sin, but as we put on Christ, as we go to the Holy Spirit in us, that part of us is perfect. We have three guideposts for us to live by, the written word, the HS, and how we put on Christ.

Because we belong to God, we have been given a plan of redemption, and that plan is Christ's blood. We are shown that as early as the story of Cain and Abel. They knew that the shadow of Christ's blood was required, even though they didn't understand Christ, yet. Cain knew it required blood but through his own reason, what he produced himself seemed fine to him. God requires absolute humble listening obedience, not our own reasoning. It is only through Christ we are saved, our works simply don't achieve that.

However, we can't say we have absolute faith in God and ignore how He tells us to live. If we did it would show we have faith in something else.

You've got good eyes.

 

[Jda016]

James defines works as basically taking care of others. More or less works kind of go with the 2nd greatest commandment of loving your neighbor as yourself.

James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.


18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.


25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?


26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[Jda016]

It is actually interesting. James shows us that faith and works go hand in hand. Works do not save us, but anyone who has true faith will have works accompany them.

We know a person with good works, but no faith does not inherit the kingdom. We also know that someone who says they have faith, but acts just like the world and never obeys God, isn't really saved.

I think Jesus tells us everything we need to know in this:

Matthew 22:37-40


37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

In a way, I kind of see the first commandment as having to do with faith and the second commandment has to do with works....if that makes any sense. Anyone who truly follows the first commandment, will by nature follow the second.

 

[VCO]

I think you are wrong when you say, "You personally will not have much luck at keeping them perfectly." They (the Lord's commandments) are challenging, but I don't think they are all that difficult. No one is putting a gun up to our heads and forcing us to sin. Satan is always tempting us, be we will overcome him.

Keep studying what ALL is sin, and HOW horrible GOD really thinks even the tiniest sin from a human perspective actually is; you appear to only know about the tip of the sin Iceburg. You have to completely come to the understanding that "I can't live up to your standards GOD, you will have to do it in me." AND THEN TOTALLY TRUST THAT JESUS LIVED THAT SINLESS LIFE AND THEN DIED FOR ME, BECAUSE I CAN'T DO IT. Then you will know why I say, "I can't do it, LORD!" and completely surrendering to HIM, trusting HIM to complete our salvation based on what HE did, and not on what we try to do. It is the most powerful statement you can say to our LORD!

Yes we continue to strive to Obey HIM our whole lives, but not to try to earn Salvation; but rather as an act of LOVE for HIM, because HE lived that Holy Life and Died to Save us. We cannot save ourselves, but WE TRUST HE DID and Love HIM with our obedience for it. We enter HIS rest, resting from struggles to earn Salvation, because HE DID IT ALL.

REMEMBER, GOD sees sin differently than us. HE sees what we consider the tiniest of sins as making us GUILTY of breaking HIS ENTIRE LAW!

2 Corinthians 12:9 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Therefore, I will most gladly boast all the more about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may reside in me.

Titus 3:4-5 (NKJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NKJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Still doubt that our obedience is supposed to be an act of LOVE, and not a futile effort to earn our own Salvation?

Mark 12:29-31 (HCSB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] “This is the most important,” Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, the Lord is One.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.
[SUP]31 [/SUP] “The second is: Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other command greater than these.”

Galatians 5:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

 

[pickles]

Faith produces works. If there is no faith, there will be no work..

True, but read Peter's letters as he does speak to faith as a work.
Faith can also be a fruit, when it is a gift because of another's witness.
Im always willing to see all faith and works as all possible, for all is possible when it is the result of God Our Father's will in Jesus.

God bless
pickles

 

[faroukfarouk]

True, but read Peter's letters as he does speak to faith as a work.
Faith can also be a fruit, when it is a gift because of another's witness.
Im always willing to see all faith and works as all possible, for all is possible when it is the result of God Our Father's will in Jesus.

God bless
pickles

'The obedience of faith', as Paul describes is, is of course not meritorious: it's all by grace, through faith, although the authenticity of faith is seen in one's fruit: "By their fruits ye shall know them", the Lord Jesus Himself said.

Blessings.

 

[pickles]

'The obedience of faith', as Paul describes is, is of course not meritorious: it's all by grace, through faith, although the authenticity of faith is seen in one's fruit: "By their fruits ye shall know them", the Lord Jesus Himself said.

Blessings.

I was speaking to one recieving or acting in faith because of the witness of another"s faith.
All is really Gods glory though!

Praise God for grace!

God bless
pickles