So according to you, when Jesus denounced the OT, and he had no reference to worshiping the Bible, nor telling you to ignore your intelligence, at a time when it would be most relevant. And from there you just use the Bible to play connect the dots about the rest of your Christian faith?
Logic vs The Bible
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So according to you, when Jesus denounced the OT, and he had no reference to worshiping the Bible, nor telling you to ignore your intelligence, at a time when it would be most relevant. And from there you just use the Bible to play connect the dots about the rest of your Christian faith?
To an orthodox Christian, I am going to Hell even though we practice very similar beliefs.
J
Jda016
Guest
Because Christ is also God.
here are a few scriptures for that:
Jesus said:
I and my Father are one. John 10:30
The Jews answered him [Jesus], saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. John 10:33
he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:9
"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works." ( John 14:10)
And Thomas answered and said unto him [Jesus], My Lord and my God. John 20:28
...lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Corinthians 4:4
and of course there are many, many more.
What if God has revealed Himself throu Christ? Then that means Salvation can only come through acceptance, belief, and trust in Christ in order to be united with the Father.
God has made a bridge for you to know Him and Christ is that bridge. Only through Him will you find salvation. Not through goodness or morality, but only through a Savior, which is Jesus.
As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one." Romans 3:10
1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
It's not for us to know your end state, but if you knowingly deny Jesus as the Christ and as God, then yes, it is the view of Christianity that you have been condemned by your own decisions.
J
Jda016
Guest
J
Jda016
Guest
Im sorry, I'm still having a hard time understanding what you are getting at.
Jesus didn't denounce the OT, he fulfilled the law. All the OT pointed to a coming Savior. Both the old and New Testament is primarily about Jesus.
I don't understand your "worshiping the bible" comment.
Intelligience isn't evil in and of itself but it can very easily be used for evil as intelligiant people have committed very evil things throughout the ages.
By the way, I don't agree with Sola Scriptura. Scripture must be interpreted through Sacred Tradition which is founded on the history of the Church through the intervention and sustaining power of the Holy Spirit.
J
Jda016
Guest
I will answer your question this way:
every "Intelligience, agency, understanding, knowledge, or logic" that leads away from God and the revelation of His plan of Salvation through Jesus Christ is evil and of the world. Only that which points to Him is eternally beneficial.
S
Sirk
Guest
I like logic but I don't love it. It can be a source of pride just like being the best at something. The bible states that we are not to lean on our own understanding but to trust the lord with all your heart. Proverbs 3:5-6
While I can't agree with the latter part of your post, I would say that using the brain God has given us to use is not a sin. There are times when Proverbs 3:5 (the verse in question) is misapplied or twisted. And that seems to be the case with your experience.
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart; do not rely on your own understanding.
I think it means to obey God even when it doesn't align with human understanding. Notice that it doesn't say to make a point of diverging from human reasoning on a regular basis. But rather when the Lord's words come in conflict with what we think is right, we should trust the Lord (notice the contrast in the verse between the two, and then ask yourself why the contrast).
I would not be against using human reasoning to understand what it is God wants us to do as long as we argue within the context of God's words. Otherwise whatever anyone wanted to do would be permissible.
T
tarzan
Guest
Many people think they are using logic, and they are, but very inefficiently. It is not a talent to say that "if a, then b, else c". That's extremely simple and linear logic. And it's also a very useless form of logic when it comes to deductive reasoning. However, it's an excellent form of logic when giving orders.
You cannot be absorbed in your own desires. You cannot attempt to manipulate anything to your desired perception. You cannot attempt to control the environment, but rather, to be able to observe it completely and honestly, understanding that you as an observer are also a part of the equation.
And this is merely the height of the worldly skill of logic. This does not even include the power of the Holy Spirit yet. For the Christian who is given the talent of deductive reasoning and expert logic is one that masters the law of God, masters the laws of nature, masters the law of love, masters the laws of wisdom, masters intellect and knowledge and memory, and what can the person with talent not master? For where there is the desire to learn the whole truth and nothing but the truth, therein is the most scientific and most talented mind.
The one who says to himself, "There is no God": That same one has no desire to learn the truth, for he discounts what he cannot see and makes himself a hypocrite, for he also believes many things told to him that he has not searched out for himself, standing on the shoulders of giants upon the shoulders of titans of human understanding, and not that understanding which comes from above.
Have you reached out and touched the stars and measured them with your hands? Have you ridden the tides of a singularity? Have you crawled back out? Have you held between your fingers the strand that holds all matter in unity? Could you tie it and loose it as you please? Have you encoded a flesh and blood creature from your own scratch code independent of even the natural law of binary? And should I ask you such great things, which are still not great compared to those things which are boasted as knowledge by us feeble little things, though I am sure from your stance that if I handed you a thousand dollars even now, you wouldn't be able to create a computer chip worthy of processing a line of text from scratch. I know this because you say that God can save you without the use of a savior. How can you even begin to question logic if you are not able to deduce that whoever saves you is therefore your Saviour.
Do not be offended.
The good news is that if you come to know of God and learn of who He really is, then you might gain a new dimension of insight concerning logic.
You cannot be absorbed in your own desires. You cannot attempt to manipulate anything to your desired perception. You cannot attempt to control the environment, but rather, to be able to observe it completely and honestly, understanding that you as an observer are also a part of the equation.
And this is merely the height of the worldly skill of logic. This does not even include the power of the Holy Spirit yet. For the Christian who is given the talent of deductive reasoning and expert logic is one that masters the law of God, masters the laws of nature, masters the law of love, masters the laws of wisdom, masters intellect and knowledge and memory, and what can the person with talent not master? For where there is the desire to learn the whole truth and nothing but the truth, therein is the most scientific and most talented mind.
The one who says to himself, "There is no God": That same one has no desire to learn the truth, for he discounts what he cannot see and makes himself a hypocrite, for he also believes many things told to him that he has not searched out for himself, standing on the shoulders of giants upon the shoulders of titans of human understanding, and not that understanding which comes from above.
Have you reached out and touched the stars and measured them with your hands? Have you ridden the tides of a singularity? Have you crawled back out? Have you held between your fingers the strand that holds all matter in unity? Could you tie it and loose it as you please? Have you encoded a flesh and blood creature from your own scratch code independent of even the natural law of binary? And should I ask you such great things, which are still not great compared to those things which are boasted as knowledge by us feeble little things, though I am sure from your stance that if I handed you a thousand dollars even now, you wouldn't be able to create a computer chip worthy of processing a line of text from scratch. I know this because you say that God can save you without the use of a savior. How can you even begin to question logic if you are not able to deduce that whoever saves you is therefore your Saviour.
Do not be offended.
The good news is that if you come to know of God and learn of who He really is, then you might gain a new dimension of insight concerning logic.
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Which came first, the logic needed to write the Bible or the Bible?
God did reveal himself through Christ, to many people. Those people may have needed that belief to get closer to God and understand his morals better.
The Bible would claim that the Holy Spirit is the filler of the gap that connects us to God, Christ is only a secondary medium, that is proportionately unnecessary when considering God to be of omnipotence logic and benevolence. God can not be perfectly benevolent and condemn people to torture. Our most basic logic principals would tell us that. To send thousands of generations of people to spiritual genocide (hell) would be immoral even in our most vague of ideas. If you don't understand, ask yourself if Hitler committing genocide agrees with your moral nature, if not, genocide in any fashion shouldn't be an idea that you accept God to have.
I never said we were without imperfection, but I am saying what we consider to be imperfect is potentially perfect to an intelligence that God may have.
That is a precursor for unjustified judgement. These prerequisites of judgement have separated humanity for many centuries now. Do you suppose God desires us to be united or divided?
Being illogical leads to arrogance and greed. It doesn't seem very logical to consider oneself as more intelligent than another nor to take more than you need.
Point being that you will not find that logic in the scriptures. The traditions taught by the apostles were Jewish traditions not Gentile traditions.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
T
tarzan
Guest
Logic failure. God's work is not about morals. God's work is about redemption. Atheists focus on morals and see how far gone their minds are.
Logic fail. The Bible "wouldn't" claim anything; but the Word of God tells us that Christ IS the bridge and that the Holy Spirit is the Comforter and that both are also Lord and God. Atheists can deduce this from the texts without the need for a believing heart.
Logic massive fail. You say that when you consider God to be infinite in His power and wisdom, therefore, God could not possibly be benevolent to perform the works that He does. Firstly, you assume that, by your reasoning of what God should do with His infinite wisdom and power, that you also possess infinite wisdom and power to decide what He should and should not do. Therefore you logically confirm that you are not only equal with God, but have the authority judge Him concerning His own creation. And then you claim that God must only be benevolent; but surely, your logic fails, because to evil God is not benevolent in the end, but rather, God is malevolent to evil - for God does not bring a good thing in the end upon the evil, but gives evil its due reward. And further, you attempt to equate God to Hitler, not realizing in yourself that God is the Creator and therefore is the rightful owner and overseer of all Creation and whatever He says and does is righteous regardless of any of our feeble thoughts; not realizing in yourself that it is your arrogance that is equal to the arrogance of Hitler, who took it upon himself to be like God and to destroy millions of people; further, not realizing that God allowed Hitler to take it upon himself as punishment against all those who had forgotten Him and chose not to rely on Him so that people understood that the god they were looking for would only destroy them; but the God which desires them would give them great blessings and life everlasting if they were to choose Him freely instead of out selfish fear and obligation.
Though what you say is true, that what we might consider to be imperfect might not be actually imperfect in God's eyes, that is not at all what you have attempted to convey here. In fact, that statement cannot at all be derived from any of your statements. But what you have attempted to do with that statement is to claim that God is imperfect and that God's perfection contains imperfection so that you are able to reconcile that which you are unwilling to accept because of your arrogant judgment of the Creator.
Why frame the discussion in the context of the bible against logic. The bible is perfect logic. It is men that lack a grasp of logic.
It is logical to perish from this life and enter an eternity of condemnation? Especially in light of the fact that God created a simple method by which man can have forgiveness of his transgressions and be blessed of God to live forever in a perfect hereafter.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
It is logical to perish from this life and enter an eternity of condemnation? Especially in light of the fact that God created a simple method by which man can have forgiveness of his transgressions and be blessed of God to live forever in a perfect hereafter.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
S
Sirk
Guest
The fact is that in arguing from logic or illogic is nearly impossible to do without employing one fallacy or another. No fallacies to be found in Gods word and the funny thing is that there is a fallacy concerning the statement that I just made. So there. Logic yourself away