Logic vs The Bible

[Pozessed]

That if God is perfect we should be perfect.

That has nothing to do with us being "God like" as you seem to be suggesting I am saying.

 

[Sirk]

But this is exactly what I am talking about; making the earth in 6 days is not illogical. Logic cannot be so easily applied to a lot of the things people try to apply it to. If A implies B is true, and A is true, then we can conclude that B is true. No set of statements like this could prove that the Universe cannot be created in 6 days. Nobody even attempts to do such a thing. And if they did, it would no doubt start out with a statement A that cannot be proven. Raising a body from the dead is not illogical either. We know that at some point non-living things became alive, but once again, just as easily as you can imagine a corpse coming back to life, it could be done by something that is all powerful. But this is a different thing then making two mutually exclusive things happen at once, which cannot be imagined, as it is just nonsense, and meaningless to even say.

A 4 sided triangle is nonsense by definition. A triangle is defined as an object with three sides and two lines coming from each vertex. If it has 4 sides it's not a triangle anymore. You can call it a triangle, but all you've done is make the definition of a triangle more ambiguous. God cannot create something so heavy that he cannot lift it, because such an object is not real, and any rock you might be imagining is just as silly as the 4 sided triangle or the statement 2+2=5. It's just not a real object, even in the abstract sense. The words used to form the sentence that attempt to describe it are as much nonsense as the string "asdfnkls". It's like saying, "Imagine a rock that is bigger than the largest rock", you probably imagined a rock, but it's not bigger than the largest rock, because the sentence "Imagine a rock that is bigger than the largest rock" is asking you to imagine something that cannot exist by definition. This is the proper application of logic.

I don't think we are in disagreement....maybe its just a matter of verb usage. God is unimaginable in His glory and way beyond what our minds can comprehend.

 

[Animus]

I can't think of any objective morality that didn't start from the logic of men.

That's the point, there is no objective morality that comes from men. It is a standard that exists apart from men. All of the mathematical statements I know of come from men, but that does not mean that mathematics does not represent objective truths about numbers. If I say 1+1=2 that is my subjective answer to the question 1+1=?, but in this case, it happens to be correct. In the same way, subjective moral statements made by men can be correct, but they are not all correct. But God is all knowing, and He does not need to use observation and deduction the way that humans do to acquire knowledge; He already knows all things. If God really did speak to the prophets, this would be the only way we, as humans, could figure out anything about this objective moral law that we know exists, but have trouble identifying.

 

[Pozessed]

I don't think we are in disagreement....maybe its just a matter of verb usage. God is unimaginable in His glory and way beyond what our minds can comprehend.

Amen to that.

 

[maxwel]

Yea... I'm not an unbeliever though. I actually believe many things the Bible portrays. Thanks for the presumption though.

I'm just using your own words.


1. Your own profile states clearly you are NOT a Christian.

2. No true believer, would EVER state something as fundamentally absurd as
"I can't really speculate what God wants or desires from us".



If you lack wisdom and understanding about God, it isn't because answers are so hard to come by, it's because God's wisdom is available to you and you don't want it.

Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Proverbs 9:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

James1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Proverbs 2:6
For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.

 

[Pozessed]

That's the point, there is no objective morality that comes from men. It is a standard that exists apart from men. All of the mathematical statements I know of come from men, but that does not mean that mathematics does not represent objective truths about numbers. If I say 1+1=2 that is my subjective answer to the question 1+1=?, but in this case, it happens to be correct. In the same way, subjective moral statements made by men can be correct, but they are not all correct. But God is all knowing, and He does not need to use observation and deduction the way that humans do to acquire knowledge; He already knows all things. If God really did speak to the prophets, this would be the only way we, as humans, could figure out anything about this objective moral law that we know exists, but have trouble identifying.

According to what you're saying, our morals should be found throughout nature as well then? If they are divinely objective as you're implying this must be the case.

 

[Pozessed]

I'm just using your own words.


1. Your own profile states clearly you are NOT a Christian.

2. No true believer, would EVER state something as fundamentally absurd as
"I can't really speculate what God wants or desires from us".



If you lack wisdom and understanding about God, it isn't because answers are so hard to come by, it's because God's wisdom is available to you and you don't want it.

Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Proverbs 9:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

James1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Proverbs 2:6
For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.

Tyrannical leaders use fear. I refuse to believe a God I admire is a tyrant. Please excuse me for having some faith that is different than yours and admitting I don't have a righteous answer for everything.

 

[Sirk]

According to what you're saying, our morals should be found throughout nature as well then? If they are divinely objective as you're implying this must be the case.

I don't understand what you mean.

 

[Sirk]

Tyrannical leaders use fear. I refuse to believe a God I admire is a tyrant. Please excuse me for having some faith that is different than yours and admitting I don't have a righteous answer for everything.

He's not a tyrant...if he was, he would have snuffed out lucifer and the 1/3 of the angels that went with him.. in an instant.
He wants true authentic love, because He is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

 

[Pozessed]

I don't understand what you mean.

I was hoping Animus would respond sooner. I am speculating that for morals to be divinely objective, animals would be made to adhere to the same objective morals we consider as divinely righteous.

 

[Pozessed]

He's not a tyrant...if he was, he would have snuffed out lucifer and the 1/3 of the angels that went with him.. in an instant.
He wants true authentic love, because He is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

I concur totally.

 

[posthuman]

Tyrannical leaders use fear. I refuse to believe a God I admire is a tyrant. Please excuse me for having some faith that is different than yours and admitting I don't have a righteous answer for everything.

if God is a tyrant and i am His slave,
no matter how dissatisfied i may be with my position,
He remains God, and i remain man.

 

[posthuman]

I am speculating that for morals to be divinely objective, animals would be made to adhere to the same objective morals we consider as divinely righteous.

i've never met a bird that, forsaking the truth, imagined for itself a god that better pleased it.
i've met hundreds of people that do that, though.

 

[Pozessed]

if God is a tyrant and i am His slave,
no matter how dissatisfied i may be with my position,
He remains God, and i remain man.

So very true.

 

[Pozessed]

i've never met a bird that, forsaking the truth, imagined for itself a god that better pleased it.
i've met hundreds of people that do that, though.

If you understood my reasoning, you'd realize your only confirming my point.

 

[Pie]

For God to be perfect, we must be perfect. If we aren't in perfect accordance with Gods plan, God is not perfect.

I speculate God IS perfect and thus we are perfect.

Nonsense. Except the part about God being perfect...If He isn't perfect, He isn't God. Therefore, God must necessarily be perfect. ;D

Without God man has no quality because man would not exist. There is no quality to something that is absent, unless that things absence is a quality.

Claim: Man must be perfect because he is created by a perfect God.
Basis for claim: Man would not exist/lacks any qualities without God.
Non sequitur.

Morals are subjective until a community decides to make them objective.

Objective: Not dependent upon a community's opinion... or any one else's for that matter.

Illustration: There are 6 pears. Observer perceives only 2 pears. There are still 6 pears. Objective.

Moral illustration: Raping babies is wrong. Community perceives raping babies is good. Raping babies is still wrong. Objective.

 

[Pozessed]

Nonsense. Except the part about God being perfect...If He isn't perfect, He isn't God. Therefore, God must necessarily be perfect. ;D



Claim: Man must be perfect because he is created by a perfect God.
Basis for claim: Man would not exist/lacks any qualities without God.
Non sequitur.



Objective: Not dependent upon a community's opinion... or any one else's for that matter.

Illustration: There are 6 pears. Observer perceives only 2 pears. There are still 6 pears. Objective.

Moral illustration: Raping babies is wrong. Community perceives raping babies is good. Raping babies is still wrong. Objective.

Killing babies was objective law at one point...

If a perfect mechanism creates something imperfect, is it a perfect mechanism? The answer here is obvious, don't think to hard.

 

[Atwood]

To whomever started this thread:

How do you know that Logic is vs the Bible?

What is your logical proof of that?

 

[Atwood]

Who told you "I was later told that I am not to use my own logic when referencing God and the Bible."

And what was the supposed proof of that one? This isn't some made-up straw man is it?

 

[Pozessed]

To whomever started this thread:

How do you know that Logic is vs the Bible?

What is your logical proof of that?

I believe that logic coincides with the Bible. Someone else told me this in a chat room here. I can't remember who said it, even if I did I wouldn't call them out directly.

How would this be related to a straw man, this is not a debate but rather a discussion.