Salvation Not Possible Without Works

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Alligator

Guest
#2,981
#2,981
Spokenpassage said:
It's pretty evident that a lot of people here have spent weeks debating with you and the others with scripture have they not?
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Well of course, that's what this forum is for. Look, if you want to give me book, chapter, and verse of something I teach that is in error, I will be glad to respond. But if you won't do that, I won't waste my time going back-and-forth with you.
 
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Spokenpassage

Guest
#2,982
#2,982
Alligator said:
Well of course, that's what this forum is for. Look, if you want to give me book, chapter, and verse of something I teach that is in error, I will be glad to respond. But if you won't do that, I won't waste my time going back-and-forth with you.
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Start with a verse, chapter, and book.
 
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Spokenpassage

Guest
#2,984
#2,984
Let's start with ole Ephesians 2:8-9 (NAS).

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."
 
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Alligator

Guest
#2,985
#2,985
Spokenpassage said:
Let's start with ole Ephesians 2:8-9 (NAS).

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."
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That passage teaches that we do not and cannot earn our salvation. Our salvation is not based on how many works we do. It is the blood of Christ that saves,
 
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Spokenpassage

Guest
#2,986
#2,986
Alligator said:
That passage teaches that we do not and cannot earn our salvation. Our salvation is not based on how many works we do. It is the blood of Christ that saves,
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So you agree than that we are saved by grace through faith, a gift of God. Well then, it is correct that salvation without works is possible is it not?
 
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Alligator

Guest
#2,987
#2,987
Spokenpassage said:
So you agree than that we are saved by grace through faith, a gift of God. Well then, it is correct that salvation without works is possible is it not?
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Yes, I believe we are saved by grace through faith. No, I do not believe salvation without works is possible. In fact, look at post 2968 by Seabass and he gives some 30 verses telling the importance of works in salvation. You can't just pick out one verse and say that's it.
 
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Spokenpassage

Guest
#2,988
#2,988
Alligator said:
Yes, I believe we are saved by grace through faith. No, I do not believe salvation without works is possible. In fact, look at post 2968 by Seabass and he gives some 30 verses telling the importance of works in salvation. You can't just pick out one verse and say that's it.
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No this is not how it's played. You show me and explain, defend it. Besides you told me to start, so I started with a few verses. I'm not going to start with a hundred verses, so technically I'm not picking a few verses as my whole argument...
 
ThomistColin

ThomistColin

Banned
#2,989
Nov 30, 2012
2,396
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#2,989
Spokenpassage said:
No this is not how it's played. You show me and explain, defend it. Besides you told me to start, so I started with a few verses. I'm not going to start with a hundred verses, so technically I'm not picking a few verses as my whole argument...
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For we are not saved by faith alone...Faith without works is dead.
 
ThomistColin

ThomistColin

Banned
#2,991
Nov 30, 2012
2,396
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#2,991
Spokenpassage said:
Ordo salutis...

Faith that sanctifies saves, not faith and works. Book of James explains this.
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How do you think you are sanctified without doing anything? You're not perfect right now. It takes time, and willingness to serve God. That takes works, and doing as God tells you. If you refuse, do you truly believe or serve Him? No, it must take our will and submission of the will. Faith and Works are One and the same. For without the other, they would be neither.
 
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Alligator

Guest
#2,992
#2,992
Spokenpassage said:
No this is not how it's played. You show me and explain, defend it. Besides you told me to start, so I started with a few verses. I'm not going to start with a hundred verses, so technically I'm not picking a few verses as my whole argument...
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This verse speaks for itself, it doesn't need my defense. <<

Hebrews 5:8-9
English Standard Version (ESV)
8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. 9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,
 
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Spokenpassage

Guest
#2,993
#2,993
ThomistColin said:
How do you think you are sanctified without doing anything? You're not perfect right now. It takes time, and willingness to serve God. That takes works, and doing as God tells you. If you refuse, do you truly believe or serve Him? No, it must take our will and submission of the will. Faith and Works are One and the same. For without the other, they would be neither.
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The Holy Spirit sanctifies you, not you. Works is the result of faith, which is the result of grace. There will not be one elect who will be lost, God will inevitably bring them to faith, and into justification, and into sanctification, and into glorification.
 
ThomistColin

ThomistColin

Banned
#2,994
Nov 30, 2012
2,396
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#2,994
Spokenpassage said:
The Holy Spirit sanctifies you, not you. Works is the result of faith, which is the result of grace. There will not be one elect who will be lost, God will inevitably bring them to faith, and into justification, and into sanctification, and into glorification.
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And if I don't do works, what does that prove?
 
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Spokenpassage

Guest
#2,995
#2,995
Alligator said:
This verse speaks for itself, it doesn't need my defense. <<

Hebrews 5:8-9
English Standard Version (ESV)
8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. 9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,
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Umm well it's quite clear this is talking about Jesus being the source of eternal life to those who obey Him. Who are those who obey Him? The saved...I don't understand why you used this as a defense? This does not however say in keeping obedience they are saved, if that's the notion you are getting at. It's pretty straightforward, those who obey, their source of life is in Christ.
 
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Spokenpassage

Guest
#2,996
#2,996
ThomistColin said:
And if I don't do works, what does that prove?
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Well if you aren't doing any work, you weren't saved at all in the first place. Those who are already saved and sealed, become sanctified.

I guess we got to be more specific. I'm talking about saving faith here...
 
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Alligator

Guest
#2,997
#2,997
Spokenpassage said:
Umm well it's quite clear this is talking about Jesus being the source of eternal life to those who obey Him. Who are those who obey Him? The saved...I don't understand why you used this as a defense? This does not however say in keeping obedience they are saved, if that's the notion you are getting at. It's pretty straightforward, those who obey, their source of life is in Christ.
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well I used this verse because it obviously tells that you must actually do something to be saved. You cannot just have faith alone. The keyword is obedience. Obey his commands that's what it's all about. If you refuse to do obedient works, you can't expect to be saved.
 
ThomistColin

ThomistColin

Banned
#2,998
Nov 30, 2012
2,396
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#2,998
Spokenpassage said:
Well if you aren't doing any work, you weren't saved at all in the first place. Those who are already saved and sealed, become sanctified.

I guess we got to be more specific. I'm talking about saving faith here...
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That proves that works are a necessary part of faith. If intention is part of sin, meaning if I intend to do something, then I am guilty of doing it. Such as lusting is adultery. Faith is part of works. For if I do good in order to be recognized, I have my treasure, and have still no chance at Heaven. If I do good in order to please God by obeying Him, I have faith in Him. For good works to be good, they must be God's will. If they are not the will of God, they are not good. Therefore, it is the one who loves God and obeys Him that is a truly saved Christian. If they do not, they have are play acting. Thus, works are required to exist if there is faith. If there are no works, there is no faith.
 
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Spokenpassage

Guest
#2,999
#2,999
Alligator said:
well I used this verse because it obviously tells that you must actually do something to be saved. You cannot just have faith alone. The keyword is obedience. Obey his commands that's what it's all about. If you refuse to do obedient works, you can't expect to be saved.
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Someone who is saved by grace through faith does not live rebellious. So faith alone does save, and then fruits appear. That fruit indicates that your faith was genuine. People who have fake faith and not fruits fall away, those truly saved never fall away.
 
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Spokenpassage

Guest
#3,000
#3,000
ThomistColin said:
That proves that works are a necessary part of faith. If intention is part of sin, meaning if I intend to do something, then I am guilty of doing it. Such as lusting is adultery. Faith is part of works. For if I do good in order to be recognized, I have my treasure, and have still no chance at Heaven. If I do good in order to please God by obeying Him, I have faith in Him. For good works to be good, they must be God's will. If they are not the will of God, they are not good. Therefore, it is the one who loves God and obeys Him that is a truly saved Christian. If they do not, they have are play acting. Thus, works are required to exist if there is faith. If there are no works, there is no faith.
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Where do you apply justification then?
 
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